Paris

What can one say.........................?

I `am very very upset about that :(

It's beyond words. Executed with military precision, well-planned, coolly, unthinkingly performed. The thorough planning, including using three assault waves, in the attempted suicide bombing of the Stade de France is bone-chilling. It's only thanks to great security that a massacre was prevented there, one that could easily have killed several hundred people. On the other hand, Bataclan shows a complete, utter, unforgivable failing of security - even the most basic, mandatory security measures for concert venues should have alerted the authorities within minutes of the presence of people with Kalashnikovs (which aren't things you can just hide in your pocket). There is practically nothing you can do to prevent something like the drive-by shootings at cafés and restaurants, but the Bataclan-massacre could have been, and should have been, prevented.

[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]but the Bataclan-massacre could have been, and should have been, prevented.[/QUOTE]

yes. about 800 years ago, maybe...but now the only way to prevent further massacres is to obliterate those responsible - completely

let's have no more hand-wringing, no more "re-education", no more policing. time has come to remove ALL ideological fanatics from the face of the earth.

they claim they're engaged in a holy war - but cowardly sneaking around planting bombs and shooting innocents is NOT a war. - if it's a war they want, then let's give them a genuine war - there will be only one winner

and (contentious as this may seem) Jihadi John (what's left of him) shoulda been dragged through the streets for all of his "friends" to see what their end will be like.

shame is, there's no end to this anytime soon, is there? why?
the biggest problem with these "extremist ideologies";
ISIS, The Taliban, boko haram, al qaeda etc - is the very nature of the "civilised world" fighting them; Obama, Cameron, Hollande, Merkel, Putin - lot's of big talk, no action

to paraphrase, someone much more eloquent:
after all is said and done, there's far too much said, and far too little done

Can anyone suggest anything that would change this routine of violence? Today I saw Obama and Erdogan on TV discussing the fight against terrorism - this is beyond bizzarre. Both Obama and Erdogan have done a lot to actually help escalating the situation and they are a huge part of the problem, How can they contribute to a solution? How can my country still sell weapons to Saudi Arabia, the main supporter of ISIS? We sell our future for oil and money, it's time for drastic change or terrorism will spread even further, it's so frustrating.

It was a truly shocking event - I was out drinking in London as the events were unraveling, and with each update I read on my phone, the more what was happening seemed unbelievable. The matter of how safe London was, was also creeping into my mind. Remember that just a couple of weeks ago a Russian plane was downed by ISIS, and the same day as the Paris attack, an ISIS attack in Lebanon killed around 43 people. These people are extraordinarily well organised. Who is funding them? These are not a bunch of crazed Arabs running around in sandals.

Just a few comments on some of the posts above.

Re thomasquinn. I agree - I think France has shown some really major security failings recently (e.g. how the hell did the Charlie Hebdo attackers in January manage to lose the police when they fled the magazine's offices? There was a damn helicopter following them, but somehow they still managed to lose them). This is supposed to be one the world's top five major powers. There were first-hand reports from victims who were there during the Friday attack that the police who stormed into the Bataclan seemed unable to handle the situation, and were practically terrorised themselves.

Re brENsKi's post on obliterating ISIS: we should have obliterated them months ago. What effect have all the bombs we've been dropping on them had? Somehow they've been ineffective, for all intents and purposes - they still managed to pull this one off despite supposedly months of us bombing them. There are many questions to be asked about this lack of progress in stopping them. Also, the nature of ISIS - their decentralised nature - makes them very hard to eradicate. There is an infinite supply of young Muslims who can be radicalised, and any dead ISIS members can be replaced, as can their leaders. It's their ideology which is the problem - and that can't be easily extinguished. But somehow, we must stop them - just as we stopped Nazism. But we have spineless puppets as political leaders. Obama, Cameron, Hollande, Merkel, and their merry bunch of "speak a lot but do nothing" people, as you say.

It has emerged that a number of them came through to Europe a few months ago as "refugees". The West's Christian "help thy neighbour" attitude is going to destroy us. Europe, which gave EVERYTHING to the world, is going to be destroyed because of the weakness and corruption of puppet politicians who have their own agendas and will never do what needs to be done to preserve my continent.

Re dragging the corpses of the suicide bombers etc. - these people become suicide bombers and disintegrate themselves because they have been brainwashed and have a strong conviction that they are going to be rewarded in the afterlife, or/and that they are truly doing something good and noble. Dragging their corpses will have no effect on other potential suicide bombers. They believe in what they do. They have a strong religion, not a weak one, like ours (Christianity). They have convictions.

Re YV's post on Obama: he is a puppet. We now all know he is all talk and no action. Spineless, useless - worse than useless, he does harm actually. This is going to be hard to stop - terror outbreaks are going to keep on happening. It will be a while before the ideological push behind these things is extinguished. Radicalised extremist Muslims are a dime a dozen. And ISIS are particularly crafty and difficult to control.

Costa - while i agree with most of your points, there's two i disagree with - this has to be stopped NOW!! - and it really doesn't matter how. the West can keep saying "enough is enough" but until proper eradication is effected then "enough is enough" are empty words. 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Paris, Paris again...anyone oNE of these was "enough is enough".

1] dragging their remains thru the street does have an effect - psychologically it would get to anyone - including the ideologically brainwashed - to know for sure that the last journey they will make is going to involve such indignity and disrespect
2] it isn't hard to stop - the West's drones know where they are - how else was Jihadi john such an easy hit? - let's blow up their enclaves - to smithereens. let's wipe out every last "settlement" so that all that is left is isolated morons in Europe....they are not brave enough to go it alone - they need their leaders.
3] the wets has the technology....let's strangle their IT infrastructure, let's kill their comms - facebook. twitter etc, cut off their supply...strafe the fucking holes they live in, then send in ground troops from EVERY compass point and wipe anyone still standing.
4] close all borders...stop any mass migration.
5] oh yeah, and close that f**king channel tunnel - let's get back control of movement into/out of britain.
5] one final thing...let's demonise - and i mean demonise/cutoff any apologists social and political.

Brensky, I understand your anger but would you honestly want to behave in a similar way as the cruel Islamists and terrorists? I hope I never see Europeans dragging dead people through the streets - no matter what they did when they were alive.

We have to maintain the difference between our civilisation and culture and the non-civilisation of the people who think it is "holy war" to shoot at unarmed helpless civilians. Imo we must come to a broad social agreement about how we deal with the refugee crisis and the danger that terrorists move into Europe hiding in the masses of unaccounted and unregistered refugees. If we do not get there fast we will lose all our freedom to right wing extremists because people are so scared they rather trust extremists than the governments who clearly have no plan and no answer to the huge problem.

The idea that people died in Paris because their killers moved through Europe with no monitoring and control makes me sick. We have to stop that and find means to help the refugees and protect our vital security interests at the same time.

[QUOTE] [b]brENsKi wrote:[/b]

Costa - while i agree with most of your points, there's two i disagree with - this has to be stopped NOW!! - and it really doesn't matter how. the West can keep saying "enough is enough" but until proper eradication is effected then "enough is enough" are empty words. 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Paris, Paris again...anyone oNE of these was "enough is enough".

1] dragging their remains thru the street does have an effect - psychologically it would get to anyone - including the ideologically brainwashed - to know for sure that the last journey they will make is going to involve such indignity and disrespect
2] it isn't hard to stop - the West's drones know where they are - how else was Jihadi john such an easy hit? - let's blow up their enclaves - to smithereens. let's wipe out every last "settlement" so that all that is left is isolated morons in Europe....they are not brave enough to go it alone - they need their leaders.
3] the wets has the technology....let's strangle their IT infrastructure, let's kill their comms - facebook. twitter etc, cut off their supply...strafe the fucking holes they live in, then send in ground troops from EVERY compass point and wipe anyone still standing.
4] close all borders...stop any mass migration.
5] oh yeah, and close that f**king channel tunnel - let's get back control of movement into/out of britain.
5] one final thing...let's demonise - and i mean demonise/cutoff any apologists social and political.[/QUOTE]

Wow ... so much that is wrong there ...

"Wipe out every last settlement ..."

In other words ... stoop to the ISIS level and aim at innocents ...

http://www.thelocal.dk/20151115/danish-mp-bomb-women-and-children-or-lose-to-isis

[QUOTE] [b]Panchgani wrote:[/b]Wow ... so much that is wrong there ...
"Wipe out every last settlement ..."

In other words ... stoop to the ISIS level and aim at innocents ...
[/QUOTE]

ISIS settlements - you knew exactly what i meant - but you'd rather twist someone's words rather than engage in the real discussion


i have no reservations whatsoever - with regard to eradication of those who would happily remove those i love and care for.

Panchgani - you're a bona fide hand wringer - you judge others so readily - but YOU have no better solution - because the only things you fill your mind left-wing claptrap.
how about YOU come up with something better - or shut up
they've shown their contempt for innocent life - so honestly? fuck em - fuck em all
and it's time the world took that attitude

well done France for joining the struggle this evening - they've obliterated more ISIS scum today than US & UK have managed in the last six months

It's upsetting how the world's going loco.

YourValentine / Panchgani - I never thought I will say something like this, but only violence can stop violence. And this comes from a former pacifist.

Peter, I don't know why you say that to me, I did not argue against violent measures. It's obvious that ISIS must be stopped in Iraq, Syria and elsewhere or they keep murdering innocent men, women and children. However, we must see that bombs cause more anger and more "warriors" are recruited by bombing places in Syria or Iraq. It's like the heads of the Hydra, you kill one and two more regrow. We all should see by now what a terrible mistake it was to invade Afghanistan and Iraq and to help trying to overthrow Assad in Syria. While the main supporter of ISIS - Saudi Arabia - was never touched but still gets weapons.

The worst aspect of this crisis is the fact that young people travel to Syria from Europe to become an ISIS member. What I do not understand is that these people are obviously observed by the secret services but not arrested and investigated for possible crimes. If I am a member of a German terrorist group I go to jail simply for the membership. One can argue that the same could be done with young man who are obviously terrorist tourists. Travelling to Syria is no crime but it is highly suspicious when people travel there while the rest of the country is fleeing into the EU.

I hearing plenty of criticism for my saying "wipe them out" - but what's the alternative? please don't utter the sad, tired old left-wing bs about re-education and "hearts n minds" crap.

it's gone way beyond that. the ONLY way to stop the young going to Syria and "signing up to ISIS" - is to obliterate it entirely
people like to "belong to something" - remove the source of the crusade and there is no belonging...then remove EVERY new club immediately.

[QUOTE] [b]YourValentine wrote:[/b]Travelling to Syria is no crime but it is highly suspicious when people travel there while the rest of the country is fleeing into the EU. [/QUOTE]
and one or two European Leaders have been far to liberal with sharing their homeland with Syrian refugees. how's that going to end? A handful of these asylum seekers will be ISIS "wolves hiding among the sheep". The first bomb in Germany, Sweden, Poland or Italy as a direct result of this "migration policy" will leave that country's leader with blood on their hands.
Frau Merkel's legacy will be seen as a weak willed, over liberal, handwringer, who coveted populist world opinion so badly that she threw strategy and commonsense out of the window in pursuit of "stateswoman glory"

[QUOTE] [b]YourValentine wrote:[/b]

How can my country still sell weapons to Saudi Arabia, the main supporter of ISIS? We sell our future for oil and money, it's time for drastic change or terrorism will spread even further, it's so frustrating.[/QUOTE]

Same thing here in Canada. We did a $15 billion deal with the Saudis. We've sold them weapons that ISIS are now using, and we're "at war" with ISIS.

I'm not sure if it's more ridiculous or scary.