Brussels Zaventem airport and metro explosions 'kill at least 13'

- Prophet Mohammed after his triumphant return to Mecca, destroyed all the idols and worship material of the pagans of the region, and established their place of worship as the most important Mosque.
- Prophet Mohammed ordered his followers to never make friends with the Kafirs as a rule, just because a few Kafirs supposedly betrayed him.
- Islam promises heaven to Muslims and hell to non-Muslims, period.
- Among other things heaven promises "immortal young boys" at the service and for the pleasure of the inhabitants.
- Prophet Mohammed married Ayesha when she was 6 years old and consummated the marriage at the age of 9 years. He was himself in his 50s.

These are just some of the facts from the Qur'an that puts me off the religion.

Ask any Islamic scholar from non-Aabic countires - ie those in the west, etc, and they will give it an interpretational twist, in line with the :religion of peace" narrative. But Arabic scholars tell it like it is, and are unaplologetic about it.

The equation "Islam = religion of peace" is itself a very new one, mostly coming into use by politicians in the west post 9/11.

When the Pakistani Taliban attacked a school in Pakistan, killing scores of students, they gave reference to Qur'anic events where Prophet Mohammed carried out a genocide of all boys and men beyond puberty age of a certain tribe.

This man can't be a real prophet, and this religion can't be a true religion.

1. My mistake then. How about Varna, I would have though that influenced the caste system?

2. Are you sure these examples are all Quran events? I would have thought the Quran didn't describe Muhammed and his life in such a direct manner.

It is not unproblematic to compare Muhammed in Islam to Jesus in Christianity, and the Bible to the Quran. In fact, in some ways Jesus corresponds better to the Quran, and Mohammed to the Bible.

This is because the Quran according to Islam is delivered by God, word for word, just like Jesus according to Christianity was God himself speaking. Whereas Muhammed, like each book in Bible is/was not a direct link to God, but rather the result of God influencing a human.

I agree that Muhammeds life is definitely not free of controversy. Perhaps the actions you describe, or at least some of them, should be considered in the light of the time and place they took place rather than the will of God. Again, Muhammed was unlike Jesus (according to Christianity) not God walking on earth, but rather just a human. A prophet, but a human nonetheless. Some (IMO) problematic parts of Islam like much of the medieval content from Sharia laws, as well as Salafism, have their basis and ideals in the norms and principles from the society that Muhammed lived in.

I don't think that Islam is a religion of either peace of war, in fact I'm not sure any religion is. It's merely a religion with many different messages, some peaceful and some violent, and ultimately there will be practicers interpreting them to suit their own purposes.

Interesting thread, this.

1. Indeed the Varna system has mention in the scriptures.
The Varna system is nothing but classification of society into different classes ie the priests, rulers/soldiers, white collar workers(educated folk/business folk) and blue collar workers. The scriptures specify there is nothing stopping someone who is in the blue collar category to gain knowledge and an education and move to a white collar job.
The Hindu scriptures were written many thousand years ago - but is that not how the society, any society, is classified even today? Its just a fact of human civilization.
The caste system is a perversion of the varna system. It is said that the higher classes, in order to protect their domain and interests, made it a rule that the occupation of a person will be birth-based and not merit/skill/talent based. Which meant the son/daughter of a blue collar worker could only be a blue collar worker.And the son of a priest would automatically be a priest. This, and the discrimination that came with it, is the caste system. It has no sanction in any of the Hindu scriptures. In fact, the Bhagavad Gita, which is the most popular Hindu text, has quotations that are anti-caste system.

2. Those examples are absolutely from Qur'an and the Hadiths, and are much more vicious than what I have noted in single sentences. And there are many more. It is most fun to read how the various shariah laws came about, ie the stories behind them. The Islamic scriptures are about the life of Prophet Mohammed in an absolute direct manner, from start to finish.

What you have done, is exactly what I was thinking when I wrote about what is happening in the west as opposed to what is being taught in the Islamic countries. In the Islamic countries, it is taught, that Qur'an is the word of God, and that it is not open to interpretation, and is to be taken verbatim. The message of the Qur'an is eternal. Prophet Mohammed is not just any man, he is the Prophet. He may not have walked on water or brought a dead man back to life, but
- He went to heaven and came back
- He flew to Jerusalem on a horse and back
- God spoke directly to him

So whatever he said, as specified in the Qur'an is to be taken literally.

Why? Because the Qur'an says so.

So what? The Qur'an is God's word.

Says who? The Qur'an says so.

So what? The Qur'an is God's word.

Says who? The Qur'an says so.

...you get the drift.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LjjOJCDDWE

It is not my intention to cause hatred or anything, and I know it is possibel for anyone to create a fake video and upload to youtube. But if what is shown in the above video is true, and maybe some German folk can say if this really is happening, it does look like Europeans are in for a tough time ahead.

There's a shift going on within the Muslim community, but it the danger is the pressure the Western world is putting on it.
They don't get to evolve naturally (that is arguable i know) like the Christians, but with a lot of force. That is one of the problems.

[QUOTE] [b]Oscar J wrote:[/b]

Speaking of ignorance - I take it you're not aware it was muslim mathematicians who gave us algebra?
[/QUOTE]

Ancient Indians (essentially Hindus) gave algebra to the Arab traders, who then took it to Europe. This includes the concept of ZERO, numeral system (0-9), etc. All this was in the BC, which means Islam was many centuries still in the future. The Arabs at the time were pagans and jewish tribes. But this transfer of knowledge continued the same route even in the Islamic era.

The Pythagoras theorem was in use in India centuries before Pythagoras was born.

Hope I have brought some change to your understanding of Hindus and Hinduism.

[QUOTE] [b]The Fairy King wrote:[/b]

There's a shift going on within the Muslim community, but it the danger is the pressure the Western world is putting on it.
They don't get to evolve naturally (that is arguable i know) like the Christians, but with a lot of force. That is one of the problems.
[/QUOTE]

The shift within the community is towards greater radicalism. And radicalizing youth is much easier in today's IT enabled age. A video or a picture can be taken from anywhere and used to cause offense and fuel hatred (hence my disclaimer for that German video). Cue the many western born and bred Muslims making a bee line to go to wage jihad in Syria and Daesh.

Another shift that is happening, is people moving away from the religion. By some estimates, Islam has the largest number of adherents leaving the religion, more than any other religon. But most of these apostates hide their status in real life, for fear of being killed. They hide this fact even from their own spouces, kids and parents. Till they can find a way to seek refuge in the west.

[QUOTE] [b]ParisNair wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]The Fairy King wrote:[/b]

There's a shift going on within the Muslim community, but it the danger is the pressure the Western world is putting on it.
They don't get to evolve naturally (that is arguable i know) like the Christians, but with a lot of force. That is one of the problems.
[/QUOTE]

The shift within the community is towards greater radicalism. And radicalizing youth is much easier in today's IT enabled age. A video or a picture can be taken from anywhere and used to cause offense and fuel hatred (hence my disclaimer for that German video). Cue the many western born and bred Muslims making a bee line to go to wage jihad in Syria and Daesh.

Another shift that is happening, is people moving away from the religion. By some estimates, Islam has the largest number of adherents leaving the religion, more than any other religon. But most of these apostates hide their status in real life, for fear of being killed. They hide this fact even from their own spouces, kids and parents. Till they can find a way to seek refuge in the west.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the West should realise it has a big part in the radicalisation of these youngsters, as they're often left with the feeling they don't matter. Especially when you look at world politics, IS, ISIS, Daesh or whatever it's called now, has found a way to show these kids their actions are just, based on the sentiment in the west towards the Islam. But also within the western countries there is something brewing that can't be undone so easily. There's too much injustice going on, which helps ISIS to recruit these kids.

It's a two way street and people just seem to ignore that fact they are actually equally responsible for creating the monster.
Not to oversimplify the matter, but it seems that there's a growing sentiment of us against them, which is too easy. Because that way you don't have to look at your self and be critical.

[QUOTE] [b]Oscar J wrote:[/b]

I completely agree that a countrys legal system should be completely independent from its religion(s).

I'm not sure I agree religion itself is the biggest obstacle though, I think it has more to do with power, corruption and greed, but often camouflaged with religion as a means or excuse for inequality and opression.

No need to laugh or cry - my comment aimed to nuance the view many have that all Islamic countries are inequal, opress women, etc. Even in Iran which has obvious problems with equality, there are glimpses of hope as, for example, women are very proficient in the academic world there. Not to say they outperform western countries overall, because they certainly do not. [/QUOTE]

I agree

Religion has always been an excuse to achieve power and influence over masses. However, there's far more of a socio-political influence than a religious one when it comes to radicalism.

[QUOTE] [b]The Fairy King wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]ParisNair wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]The Fairy King wrote:[/b]

There's a shift going on within the Muslim community, but it the danger is the pressure the Western world is putting on it.
They don't get to evolve naturally (that is arguable i know) like the Christians, but with a lot of force. That is one of the problems.
[/QUOTE]

The shift within the community is towards greater radicalism. And radicalizing youth is much easier in today's IT enabled age. A video or a picture can be taken from anywhere and used to cause offense and fuel hatred (hence my disclaimer for that German video). Cue the many western born and bred Muslims making a bee line to go to wage jihad in Syria and Daesh.

Another shift that is happening, is people moving away from the religion. By some estimates, Islam has the largest number of adherents leaving the religion, more than any other religon. But most of these apostates hide their status in real life, for fear of being killed. They hide this fact even from their own spouces, kids and parents. Till they can find a way to seek refuge in the west.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the West should realise it has a big part in the radicalisation of these youngsters, as they're often left with the feeling they don't matter. Especially when you look at world politics, IS, ISIS, Daesh or whatever it's called now, has found a way to show these kids their actions are just, based on the sentiment in the west towards the Islam. But also within the western countries there is something brewing that can't be undone so easily. There's too much injustice going on, which helps ISIS to recruit these kids.

It's a two way street and people just seem to ignore that fact they are actually equally responsible for creating the monster.
Not to oversimplify the matter, but it seems that there's a growing sentiment of us against them, which is too easy. Because that way you don't have to look at your self and be critical.

[/QUOTE]

The more of a sentiment of hatred in the western world is spread, the more radicals you will see joining ISIS, Boko Haram, and other terrorist groups. Hence why Trump being elected president will probably be something ISIS would want.

[QUOTE] [b]The Fairy King wrote:[/b]

Yes, the West should realise it has a big part in the radicalisation of these youngsters, as they're often left with the feeling they don't matter. Especially when you look at world politics, IS, ISIS, Daesh or whatever it's called now, has found a way to show these kids their actions are just, based on the sentiment in the west towards the Islam. But also within the western countries there is something brewing that can't be undone so easily. There's too much injustice going on, which helps ISIS to recruit these kids.

It's a two way street and people just seem to ignore that fact they are actually equally responsible for creating the monster.
Not to oversimplify the matter, but it seems that there's a growing sentiment of us against them, which is too easy. Because that way you don't have to look at your self and be critical.

[/QUOTE]

You don't see the Japanese, the Vietnamese. the Koreans, the Indians, the Israelis, the American Indians, the Africans, the Chinese blowing themselves up for avenging the deeds of the Americans/western countries on their nations.
What exactly has the West done to the Arabs/Muslims of this world that it has not done to the these other peoples?
The West is no saint, of course, but don't demonize the west just so you can apologize for terrorists.

I reproduce one of the comments under the Youtube video that I shared in a previous post-

"this is how Neo Nazis are created , when that roller boy gross up hes going to 6.6 250lbs of pissed off rage , and he will most likely stab and beat the crap out of hundreds of muslims in revenge . we reap what we sew .?"(sic)

[QUOTE] [b]ParisNair wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]The Fairy King wrote:[/b]

Yes, the West should realise it has a big part in the radicalisation of these youngsters, as they're often left with the feeling they don't matter. Especially when you look at world politics, IS, ISIS, Daesh or whatever it's called now, has found a way to show these kids their actions are just, based on the sentiment in the west towards the Islam. But also within the western countries there is something brewing that can't be undone so easily. There's too much injustice going on, which helps ISIS to recruit these kids.

It's a two way street and people just seem to ignore that fact they are actually equally responsible for creating the monster.
Not to oversimplify the matter, but it seems that there's a growing sentiment of us against them, which is too easy. Because that way you don't have to look at your self and be critical.

[/QUOTE]

You don't see the Japanese, the Vietnamese. the Koreans, the Indians, the Israelis, the American Indians, the Africans, the Chinese blowing themselves up for avenging the deeds of the Americans/western countries on their nations.
What exactly has the West done to the Arabs/Muslims of this world that it has not done to the these other peoples?
The West is no saint, of course, but don't demonize the west just so you can apologize for terrorists.

I reproduce one of the comments under the Youtube video that I shared in a previous post-

"this is how Neo Nazis are created , when that roller boy gross up hes going to 6.6 250lbs of pissed off rage , and he will most likely stab and beat the crap out of hundreds of muslims in revenge . we reap what we sew .?"(sic)[/QUOTE]

To play innocent is kinda much though. I didn't say it was the only reason, but we have seen some fucked up things happen under the "war on terror" flag, don't you think the "west" kind of deserves some criticism? The problem isn't actually the Islam, it's that the west can't understand why the rest of the world might not want their version of "democracy", " freedom of speech" and "capitalism". It's hypocritical to say at least.

Also i think there are some weird forces at play here and i don't think the general public is aware they are being used. The fact that you didn't read my comment and just started throwing weird examples my way is very typical. Are you bombing China? the Koreans?(not yet), Japan? Oh wait you bombed Japan...then what happened? Why would Israel bomb America? They make too much money off of them.
The American Indians? They sure gave up their land without a fight...

....you see my point?

[QUOTE] [b]The Fairy King wrote:[/b]

To play innocent is kinda much though. I didn't say it was the only reason, but we have seen some fucked up things happen under the "war on terror" flag, don't you think the "west" kind of deserves some criticism? The problem isn't actually the Islam, it's that the west can't understand why the rest of the world might not want their version of "democracy", " freedom of speech" and "capitalism". It's hypocritical to say at least.

Also i think there are some weird forces at play here and i don't think the general public is aware they are being used. The fact that you didn't read my comment and just started throwing weird examples my way is very typical. Are you bombing China? the Koreans?(not yet), Japan? Oh wait you bombed Japan...then what happened? Why would Israel bomb America? They make too much money off of them.
The American Indians? They sure gave up their land without a fight...

....you see my point?

[/QUOTE]

It was not my point that west is beyond blame. And the west does face criticism and a whole lot of it, by westerners themselves. Try to criticism an Islamic govt in a similar manner and see where that takes you.

You should check history, and you'll know what the west did in each of those places that you call weird examples. My point was that they did not get fixated on ideologies (religious or otherwise) and focused on nation building. Not the American Indians, ofcourse, they don't have a nation to call their own anymore.

On the other hand, there are the Islamic countries, which don't seem to have the ability to look beyond the non-muslim = enemy = kill narrative.

What do you mean by "rest of the world"?

You think Islamic countries don't get aid (make money) off of the west?

You are a classic example of what some have started terming "white-guilt all over again".

I have to agree with ParisNair. I grew up in self-blame, it's part of my country's history. But when I look at the actual social reality I have to say that Muslim immigrant born kids really have loads of chances in my country. I would never deny that there is racism and ther are barriers for a young kid from a poor family but there are more chances than you need to make it and the barriers can be overcome, there is lots of help. For immigrant kids we have extra teachers, extra classes, permanent Islamic-goverment conventions where the problems of Muslim families are discussed and improved. For no other group we have similar efforts to help them integrate and be successful in this country. Still, we have no other group in this country who displays more contempt for our society. No other group has so many swear words to describe people of German origin and other Christians. No other group has such a high percentage of criminal activity, At the same time Muslim people demand more privileges than all other groups combined. They demand that women are treated differently than men, they demand extra prayer rooms in schools and universities, they demand that schools do not offer "unclean" food etc. Actually, they demand that we disregard our constitution in favour of Muslim laws. In discussions they tell you they do not need to respect the constitution because sooner or later Sharia law will prevail in this country. Of course not all Muslim people act like that but there is a strong minority which also bullies liberal Muslims whenever possible.

In our poltical correctness we have dismissed the seriousness of such a hostile minority for so long that now we suddenly have right wing parties not only in my country but all over Europe - just because people are actually scared and start to believe that the democratic parties are simply unable to address the issue. In the last year we accepted 1 million Arab refugees into the country and now we simply have to address the cultural issues because we have problems each and every day: violence between refugees, Christians being attacked in the refugee homes, women raped in the refugee homes, women attacked in buses, in the streets in public baths and everywhere else, gay people chased in the streets by immigrants. You may say this has nothing to do with Islam but it's Islam that makes people feel they are superior to the country that gives them shelter only because the country is being inhabited by "infidels". We need to be honest and face the truth or else we will lose all our democratic achievements. I really do not want a policeman at each corner to feel safe in my city.

Btw, the video you posted is genuine and already a few years old. The school in question was closed. It was in Berlin in a quarter with mainly immigrant families. The video shows the problem in a nutshell: German kids are taught to solve their conflicts in a peaceful way why Middle East kids solve all problems with violence. There is no respect for German teachers because the kids learn at home that Germans are just "kuffars" and the teachers have no ways to sanction the behaviour because the only way they would understand would be the teacher hitting them which is - of course - not allowed. I have to admit that I feel anger when I watch this video.

A Dutch coworker of mine who lives in Belgium (he is an international sales rep) told me (in February well before the suicide bombings) that the problem is 3rd generation Morraccans whose parents came to Belgium in the '40's for the mining industry. According to him, the Moraccans have disdain for the European culture and have no interest for assimilation. They harass and spit upon the indiginous Belgians, and of course the crime is horrendous.

In the US we are genrally lucky (aside from San Bernardino). The vast majority of Muslums are moderate and have assimilated into America.