Oscar J
This was a great read Costa86, thanks.
Thread
Posts in chronological order
brENsKi
@Costa86
reading your comments you're implying that ALL young voted stay and ALL old voted leave. that's not the case. both were approx 66-70%.
secondly, the tone in your comments suggests leavers to be racists and bigots. thanks for that.
i'm going to stick up (for once) for the country of my birth.
17+ million people are NOT racists and bigots - they're tired.
tired of the EU stifling the living shit out of everything Britain tries to achieve
tired of red tape and major UK contracts (due to EU tendering rules) being awarded to european companies, while companies here go to the wall.
tired of our resources being drained ...our NHS dying under the weight of demand for finite services.
make no mistake, this country will be strong and great again. yes it'll take time, but it will happen. and it'll be sweeter for having earned our place in a modern competitive world.
we were tired of being lied to by the Remain campaign who spouted war, famine, plague and pestilence if we left. (Osbourne even threatened an emergency budget - which he rescinded this morning)
and if the "young" were as bothered as you claim, why did 5 million of them NOT BOTHER to register to vote.
and what about this rubbish petition for a second referendum? really? is that how "Remain" people seeing democracy work? "we don't get the right result, so we keep going til we do"
yes there's some pain ahead, but we'll be stronger and better for it.
the Netherlands, Austria, Denmark, Sweden and France! are rumoured to be considering the same option...let's see what's left of the eurozone in ten years....Germany and Scotland that's what
reading your comments you're implying that ALL young voted stay and ALL old voted leave. that's not the case. both were approx 66-70%.
secondly, the tone in your comments suggests leavers to be racists and bigots. thanks for that.
i'm going to stick up (for once) for the country of my birth.
17+ million people are NOT racists and bigots - they're tired.
tired of the EU stifling the living shit out of everything Britain tries to achieve
tired of red tape and major UK contracts (due to EU tendering rules) being awarded to european companies, while companies here go to the wall.
tired of our resources being drained ...our NHS dying under the weight of demand for finite services.
make no mistake, this country will be strong and great again. yes it'll take time, but it will happen. and it'll be sweeter for having earned our place in a modern competitive world.
we were tired of being lied to by the Remain campaign who spouted war, famine, plague and pestilence if we left. (Osbourne even threatened an emergency budget - which he rescinded this morning)
and if the "young" were as bothered as you claim, why did 5 million of them NOT BOTHER to register to vote.
and what about this rubbish petition for a second referendum? really? is that how "Remain" people seeing democracy work? "we don't get the right result, so we keep going til we do"
yes there's some pain ahead, but we'll be stronger and better for it.
the Netherlands, Austria, Denmark, Sweden and France! are rumoured to be considering the same option...let's see what's left of the eurozone in ten years....Germany and Scotland that's what
Bad Seed
^well said^
YourValentine
Brenski, can you give me an example for a major UK contract that was lost due to EU legislation and can you explain to me how the NHS has been detrimentally affected by the EU? Mainly the NHS topic is something I do not understand.
When I look at the responses we get to the referendum inside and outside the UK there are some very surprising things:
- politicians in the UK telling the public they can leave the EU and dismiss all EU legislation but still retain access to the single market
- UK politicians telling the public they are not invoking article 50 but still want to "negotiate" with the EU
- EU politicians not even considering that they neglected to encourage the UK to stay in the union and do not consinder resigning (Juncker)
- Eu politicians who act like it is a personal insult to them that the UK voted "leave" like they are the roi soleil of the EU (Schulz) I really wish we could get rid of these two.
When I look at the responses we get to the referendum inside and outside the UK there are some very surprising things:
- politicians in the UK telling the public they can leave the EU and dismiss all EU legislation but still retain access to the single market
- UK politicians telling the public they are not invoking article 50 but still want to "negotiate" with the EU
- EU politicians not even considering that they neglected to encourage the UK to stay in the union and do not consinder resigning (Juncker)
- Eu politicians who act like it is a personal insult to them that the UK voted "leave" like they are the roi soleil of the EU (Schulz) I really wish we could get rid of these two.
Costa86
[QUOTE] [b]brENsKi wrote:[/b]
@Costa86
reading your comments you're implying that ALL young voted stay and ALL old voted leave. that's not the case. both were approx 66-70%.
secondly, the tone in your comments suggests leavers to be racists and bigots. thanks for that.
i'm going to stick up (for once) for the country of my birth.
17+ million people are NOT racists and bigots - they're tired.
tired of the EU stifling the living shit out of everything Britain tries to achieve
tired of red tape and major UK contracts (due to EU tendering rules) being awarded to european companies, while companies here go to the wall.
tired of our resources being drained ...our NHS dying under the weight of demand for finite services.
make no mistake, this country will be strong and great again. yes it'll take time, but it will happen. and it'll be sweeter for having earned our place in a modern competitive world.
we were tired of being lied to by the Remain campaign who spouted war, famine, plague and pestilence if we left. (Osbourne even threatened an emergency budget - which he rescinded this morning)
and if the "young" were as bothered as you claim, why did 5 million of them NOT BOTHER to register to vote.
and what about this rubbish petition for a second referendum? really? is that how "Remain" people seeing democracy work? "we don't get the right result, so we keep going til we do"
yes there's some pain ahead, but we'll be stronger and better for it.
the Netherlands, Austria, Denmark, Sweden and France! are rumoured to be considering the same option...let's see what's left of the eurozone in ten years....Germany and Scotland that's what[/QUOTE]
The 17 million are not all racist and bigots - that's obvious. But a can of worms has been opened, and a nasty, uneducated, bigoted and xenophobic side to Britsh society has been brought to light. It was always there - every society has these elements - but the referendum has hugely placed a light on this side of society.
Reports of racist crimes have risen 60% since Friday. Non-EU migrants - such as Pakistanis - have been told to "leave". These are people who have been here for decades. Yet, somehow, they don't fit into some Britons' idea of what it means to be British. Maybe because they have a funny accent. Maybe because "they've been taking (our) jobs". Maybe because you're fed-up of them taking your benefits - which they don't - that's another lie fed to you by journalists such as Boris Johnson, who were dead set for year and years on making the EU look like the cause of all ills.
I would never put you in the category of uneducated or racist, Brenski. But the fact is that many of the Leavers voted "leave" because they want to see Britain rid of all those who do not fit their white protestant Anglo-Saxon view of what a Briton should be. I find it tragically funny that people like Boris Johnson are now saying that the UK will still be able to participate in the single-market. This man never believed the Leave side would win, and now that it did, he's clutching at straws for fear of drowning.
Your complaints about the EU are relevant. The EU needs to change. But what you have done is cut off your nose to spite your face. You are getting rid of all the benefits too. And you (i.e. you the people, not you personally) might not know exactly what the benefits are, and what leaving will really mean. Indeed, since Google reported a 3x increase in "what is the EU?" searches following the referendum result, it seems that many Britons (Leavers or Remain) did not even know what they voted out or in to. The tragedy is that many chose to educate themselves AFTER the referendum, not before, and now they are regretting it.
Regarding a second referendum, I don't agree with this either. The referendum was a horrendous idea in the first place. No - what should happen is that the referendum result is ignored. It will be suicidal if it is not. It was an advisory referendum, and the advice should not be taken.
The "will of the people" does not matter in this situation. Democracy isn't about the will of the people. If it were so, democracy would be catastrophic and would lead to subjugation, loss of rights, etc. The future of the UK should not be decided by the ignorant masses - the uneducated, the angry, those with a chip on their shoulder. As Geoffrey Robertson QC writes here - http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/it-s-not-over-yet-top-legal-expert-says-brexit-vote-has-no-force-whatsoever-and-mps-will-try-to-a3282071.html - MPs should pass a new bill in the Commons to repeal the European Communities Act of 1972, and the majority should block it by voting against it. It is in the interest of the country to remain members.
My under-grad thesis was about euroscepticism in Scandinavia, and I touched a bit on Britain as well. I understand the arguments on why the EU needs to change. I can list 100s of things wrong with the EU. But I can list 1000s of good things. We have taken for granted the increase in prosperity (the problems in Spain, Greece, etc., are of their making, not the EU's fault), the major advances in research due to EU funding, the ease of travel for work and study, and, most importantly, the peace which it has brought amongst its member states. It is tragic - very, very tragic - that a wonderful and great country such as the UK has gone down the isolationist route once again and chosen, by a narrow majority, to leave this family of Europeans. A win for ignorance, and win for darkness.
@Costa86
reading your comments you're implying that ALL young voted stay and ALL old voted leave. that's not the case. both were approx 66-70%.
secondly, the tone in your comments suggests leavers to be racists and bigots. thanks for that.
i'm going to stick up (for once) for the country of my birth.
17+ million people are NOT racists and bigots - they're tired.
tired of the EU stifling the living shit out of everything Britain tries to achieve
tired of red tape and major UK contracts (due to EU tendering rules) being awarded to european companies, while companies here go to the wall.
tired of our resources being drained ...our NHS dying under the weight of demand for finite services.
make no mistake, this country will be strong and great again. yes it'll take time, but it will happen. and it'll be sweeter for having earned our place in a modern competitive world.
we were tired of being lied to by the Remain campaign who spouted war, famine, plague and pestilence if we left. (Osbourne even threatened an emergency budget - which he rescinded this morning)
and if the "young" were as bothered as you claim, why did 5 million of them NOT BOTHER to register to vote.
and what about this rubbish petition for a second referendum? really? is that how "Remain" people seeing democracy work? "we don't get the right result, so we keep going til we do"
yes there's some pain ahead, but we'll be stronger and better for it.
the Netherlands, Austria, Denmark, Sweden and France! are rumoured to be considering the same option...let's see what's left of the eurozone in ten years....Germany and Scotland that's what[/QUOTE]
The 17 million are not all racist and bigots - that's obvious. But a can of worms has been opened, and a nasty, uneducated, bigoted and xenophobic side to Britsh society has been brought to light. It was always there - every society has these elements - but the referendum has hugely placed a light on this side of society.
Reports of racist crimes have risen 60% since Friday. Non-EU migrants - such as Pakistanis - have been told to "leave". These are people who have been here for decades. Yet, somehow, they don't fit into some Britons' idea of what it means to be British. Maybe because they have a funny accent. Maybe because "they've been taking (our) jobs". Maybe because you're fed-up of them taking your benefits - which they don't - that's another lie fed to you by journalists such as Boris Johnson, who were dead set for year and years on making the EU look like the cause of all ills.
I would never put you in the category of uneducated or racist, Brenski. But the fact is that many of the Leavers voted "leave" because they want to see Britain rid of all those who do not fit their white protestant Anglo-Saxon view of what a Briton should be. I find it tragically funny that people like Boris Johnson are now saying that the UK will still be able to participate in the single-market. This man never believed the Leave side would win, and now that it did, he's clutching at straws for fear of drowning.
Your complaints about the EU are relevant. The EU needs to change. But what you have done is cut off your nose to spite your face. You are getting rid of all the benefits too. And you (i.e. you the people, not you personally) might not know exactly what the benefits are, and what leaving will really mean. Indeed, since Google reported a 3x increase in "what is the EU?" searches following the referendum result, it seems that many Britons (Leavers or Remain) did not even know what they voted out or in to. The tragedy is that many chose to educate themselves AFTER the referendum, not before, and now they are regretting it.
Regarding a second referendum, I don't agree with this either. The referendum was a horrendous idea in the first place. No - what should happen is that the referendum result is ignored. It will be suicidal if it is not. It was an advisory referendum, and the advice should not be taken.
The "will of the people" does not matter in this situation. Democracy isn't about the will of the people. If it were so, democracy would be catastrophic and would lead to subjugation, loss of rights, etc. The future of the UK should not be decided by the ignorant masses - the uneducated, the angry, those with a chip on their shoulder. As Geoffrey Robertson QC writes here - http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/it-s-not-over-yet-top-legal-expert-says-brexit-vote-has-no-force-whatsoever-and-mps-will-try-to-a3282071.html - MPs should pass a new bill in the Commons to repeal the European Communities Act of 1972, and the majority should block it by voting against it. It is in the interest of the country to remain members.
My under-grad thesis was about euroscepticism in Scandinavia, and I touched a bit on Britain as well. I understand the arguments on why the EU needs to change. I can list 100s of things wrong with the EU. But I can list 1000s of good things. We have taken for granted the increase in prosperity (the problems in Spain, Greece, etc., are of their making, not the EU's fault), the major advances in research due to EU funding, the ease of travel for work and study, and, most importantly, the peace which it has brought amongst its member states. It is tragic - very, very tragic - that a wonderful and great country such as the UK has gone down the isolationist route once again and chosen, by a narrow majority, to leave this family of Europeans. A win for ignorance, and win for darkness.
brENsKi
[QUOTE] [b]Costa86 wrote:[/b]I would never put you in the category of uneducated or racist, Brenski. But the fact is that many of the Leavers voted "leave" because they want to see Britain rid of all those who do not fit their white protestant Anglo-Saxon view of what a Briton should be.[/QUOTE]and what about all the "Remainer Campaigners" self-interests - the european investments/businesses etc they have finanacial interests in? how about the financiers who sold sterling, bought gold and then sold gold and bough back sterling in the same day - and made £8m in the process? these people are immorral...and the self same rich bastards who behind the remain campaign. They can tell us what to do, threaten us how they'll make it bad for us, then be instrumental in devaluing our currency and making a fortune out of others' misery. shameful pricks.
[QUOTE] [b]Costa86 wrote:[/b]Regarding a second referendum, I don't agree with this either. The referendum was a horrendous idea in the first place. No - what should happen is that the referendum result is ignored. It will be suicidal if it is not. It was an advisory referendum, and the advice should not be taken.[/QUOTE]no it was not "an advisory referendum" - well not in the real world, maybe in you mind it was. but ONE party stood for govt on a manifesto that gave the people the say on whether we remain in europe. Cameron's words were "some things are too important for politicians to decide and MUST be decided by the people"
[QUOTE] [b]Costa86 wrote:[/b]The "will of the people" does not matter in this situation. Democracy isn't about the will of the people. If it were so, democracy would be catastrophic and would lead to subjugation, loss of rights, etc. The future of the UK should not be decided by the ignorant masses - the uneducated, the angry, those with a chip on their shoulder. [/QUOTE]again, your idiocy shows no limit. there were uneducated angry masses in equal numbers on both sides. so your idea is null. secondly, the Remain Campaign tried to scare people into remaining - it backfired on them - and good thing too! Britain decides and not some westminster politicans with own personal agendas to be served.
[QUOTE] [b]Costa86 wrote:[/b]My under-grad thesis was about euroscepticism in Scandinavia, and I touched a bit on Britain as well. I understand the arguments on why the EU needs to change. I can list 100s of things wrong with the EU. But I can list 1000s of good things. We have taken for granted the increase in prosperity (the problems in Spain, Greece, etc., are of their making, not the EU's fault), the major advances in research due to EU funding, the ease of travel for work and study, and, most importantly, the peace which it has brought amongst its member states. It is tragic - very, very tragic - that a wonderful and great country such as the UK has gone down the isolationist route once again and chosen, by a narrow majority, to leave this family of Europeans. A win for ignorance, and win for darkness.[/QUOTE]I really couldn't care what your under-grad was. the fact you deem to refer to it tells so much about your own opinion of your own self-importance and "i'm better than everyone else" crap dpes not wash. every vote is just as important.
simple facts:
1] this country WILL be great again, working alongside and NOT constrained within Europe
2] the referedum has to be implemented in full. otherwise NO politician in this country will ever be believed again.
3] Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Austria and France are becomimg increasingly likely to follow - the euro project is dying a lingering painful death and why would any self-respecting person want to be part of ship already floundering on the rocks.
4] people do not like being threatened - they rise up, and have done so. well done Britain!
5] you cannot ignore a result, or decide it as "advisory" just because you don't like it. Govt asked, Govt got. we should ALL now respect it, live with it and move on.
6] people who talk like yourself do NOT really respect democracy - unless the decision being taken coincides with their own views. i am 100% certain that you would not be here asking us to ignore the outcome had the country chose to remain. shameful and hypocritical.
[QUOTE] [b]Costa86 wrote:[/b]Regarding a second referendum, I don't agree with this either. The referendum was a horrendous idea in the first place. No - what should happen is that the referendum result is ignored. It will be suicidal if it is not. It was an advisory referendum, and the advice should not be taken.[/QUOTE]no it was not "an advisory referendum" - well not in the real world, maybe in you mind it was. but ONE party stood for govt on a manifesto that gave the people the say on whether we remain in europe. Cameron's words were "some things are too important for politicians to decide and MUST be decided by the people"
[QUOTE] [b]Costa86 wrote:[/b]The "will of the people" does not matter in this situation. Democracy isn't about the will of the people. If it were so, democracy would be catastrophic and would lead to subjugation, loss of rights, etc. The future of the UK should not be decided by the ignorant masses - the uneducated, the angry, those with a chip on their shoulder. [/QUOTE]again, your idiocy shows no limit. there were uneducated angry masses in equal numbers on both sides. so your idea is null. secondly, the Remain Campaign tried to scare people into remaining - it backfired on them - and good thing too! Britain decides and not some westminster politicans with own personal agendas to be served.
[QUOTE] [b]Costa86 wrote:[/b]My under-grad thesis was about euroscepticism in Scandinavia, and I touched a bit on Britain as well. I understand the arguments on why the EU needs to change. I can list 100s of things wrong with the EU. But I can list 1000s of good things. We have taken for granted the increase in prosperity (the problems in Spain, Greece, etc., are of their making, not the EU's fault), the major advances in research due to EU funding, the ease of travel for work and study, and, most importantly, the peace which it has brought amongst its member states. It is tragic - very, very tragic - that a wonderful and great country such as the UK has gone down the isolationist route once again and chosen, by a narrow majority, to leave this family of Europeans. A win for ignorance, and win for darkness.[/QUOTE]I really couldn't care what your under-grad was. the fact you deem to refer to it tells so much about your own opinion of your own self-importance and "i'm better than everyone else" crap dpes not wash. every vote is just as important.
simple facts:
1] this country WILL be great again, working alongside and NOT constrained within Europe
2] the referedum has to be implemented in full. otherwise NO politician in this country will ever be believed again.
3] Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Austria and France are becomimg increasingly likely to follow - the euro project is dying a lingering painful death and why would any self-respecting person want to be part of ship already floundering on the rocks.
4] people do not like being threatened - they rise up, and have done so. well done Britain!
5] you cannot ignore a result, or decide it as "advisory" just because you don't like it. Govt asked, Govt got. we should ALL now respect it, live with it and move on.
6] people who talk like yourself do NOT really respect democracy - unless the decision being taken coincides with their own views. i am 100% certain that you would not be here asking us to ignore the outcome had the country chose to remain. shameful and hypocritical.
Bohardy
Brenski, what is your problem?
You're utterly incapable of having a debate without turning it into a personal attack.
Costa made a very sensible, reasoned, post (as he usually does). Why so hostile?
You're utterly incapable of having a debate without turning it into a personal attack.
Costa made a very sensible, reasoned, post (as he usually does). Why so hostile?
Sebastian
[QUOTE] [b]Costa86 wrote:[/b]
Reports of racist crimes have risen 60% since Friday.[/QUOTE]
True - 'reports' have risen. But have 'racist crimes' actually risen? Perhaps, perhaps not. Just to play devil's advocate, I'll copy and paste from my recent QOL post:
A video of some young lad issuing racial slurs in a tram in Manchester (I think) has been doing the rounds and popping up a lot on my newsfeed. While it's sad and upsetting and all, I do wonder if it would even be shared had it happened a week ago ... and, for all I know, it could have jolly well happened a week ago (perhaps not that precise event, but plenty of them, everywhere, all the time). I do think it's getting loads of attention because of timing, and a week ago the media couldn't have cared less.
That, I think, is the real 'enemy.' Not the EU, not the PM, not this or that political party (or its leaders), not immigrants, not a specific delusion with an imaginary friend and not even the ridiculously arrogant thought that one's birthplace (whichever it is) is automatically the 'best' there is. The real enemies are ignorance, misinformation and thinking what others command us to think.
Reports of racist crimes have risen 60% since Friday.[/QUOTE]
True - 'reports' have risen. But have 'racist crimes' actually risen? Perhaps, perhaps not. Just to play devil's advocate, I'll copy and paste from my recent QOL post:
A video of some young lad issuing racial slurs in a tram in Manchester (I think) has been doing the rounds and popping up a lot on my newsfeed. While it's sad and upsetting and all, I do wonder if it would even be shared had it happened a week ago ... and, for all I know, it could have jolly well happened a week ago (perhaps not that precise event, but plenty of them, everywhere, all the time). I do think it's getting loads of attention because of timing, and a week ago the media couldn't have cared less.
That, I think, is the real 'enemy.' Not the EU, not the PM, not this or that political party (or its leaders), not immigrants, not a specific delusion with an imaginary friend and not even the ridiculously arrogant thought that one's birthplace (whichever it is) is automatically the 'best' there is. The real enemies are ignorance, misinformation and thinking what others command us to think.
Saint Jiub
[QUOTE]
[b]Bohardy wrote: [/b] Brenski, what is your problem?
You're utterly incapable of having a debate without turning it into a personal attack.
Costa made a very sensible, reasoned, post (as he usually does). Why so hostile? [/QUOTE]
Why? Perhaps this:
Costa86 wrote:The "will of the people" does not matter in this situation. Democracy isn't about the will of the people. If it were so, democracy would be catastrophic and would lead to subjugation, loss of rights, etc. The future of the UK should not be decided by the ignorant masses - the uneducated, the angry, those with a chip on their shoulder.
[b]Bohardy wrote: [/b] Brenski, what is your problem?
You're utterly incapable of having a debate without turning it into a personal attack.
Costa made a very sensible, reasoned, post (as he usually does). Why so hostile? [/QUOTE]
Why? Perhaps this:
Costa86 wrote:The "will of the people" does not matter in this situation. Democracy isn't about the will of the people. If it were so, democracy would be catastrophic and would lead to subjugation, loss of rights, etc. The future of the UK should not be decided by the ignorant masses - the uneducated, the angry, those with a chip on their shoulder.
YourValentine
Actually, Mike, this is exactly what the allies thought about the German people after the war and therefore we have no referendums :-) However, in the brexit referendum I think the mistake was on the side of the campaigning politicians. They did not give the people a true picture, a lot of lies were told, so many people voted for the wrong reasons.
The most devastating issue was the immigration from Europe which we do not call "immigration" but freedom of movement in the rest of the EU. Freedom of movement means that all people in the EU are free to live and work inside the EU wherever they choose. It comes together with the single market which means that all goods and services can be freely exchanged with no borders and no tariffs or any other obstacles. Now the leave campaign told the voters that they can keep the freedom to move their goods and services but not the freedom of their citizens to move in the EU which will simply not happen. Of course they did not vote to forbid their own people to move - no, they voted for Polish and Romanian cheap labour to leave the country, that was the big mistake, If they want to keep the single market they must accept EU work force in their country, member or not member. Maybe it was wrong that Brussels watched all this happen and did not tell the people the truth.
We actually do have reports of hostile acts against EU citizens in the UK after the brexit, the prime minister did address this issue in the House of Commons on Monday. There were flyers in English and Polish language distributed to Polish households telling them they are "vermin" and should leave the country. I really hesitate to make that connection but that is what the Nazis did to the Jews in the 1930s. Luckily, most British people do not support such behaviour but it was the hateful campaigning that made room for such people to think it is acceptable to do that to their neighbours.
The most devastating issue was the immigration from Europe which we do not call "immigration" but freedom of movement in the rest of the EU. Freedom of movement means that all people in the EU are free to live and work inside the EU wherever they choose. It comes together with the single market which means that all goods and services can be freely exchanged with no borders and no tariffs or any other obstacles. Now the leave campaign told the voters that they can keep the freedom to move their goods and services but not the freedom of their citizens to move in the EU which will simply not happen. Of course they did not vote to forbid their own people to move - no, they voted for Polish and Romanian cheap labour to leave the country, that was the big mistake, If they want to keep the single market they must accept EU work force in their country, member or not member. Maybe it was wrong that Brussels watched all this happen and did not tell the people the truth.
We actually do have reports of hostile acts against EU citizens in the UK after the brexit, the prime minister did address this issue in the House of Commons on Monday. There were flyers in English and Polish language distributed to Polish households telling them they are "vermin" and should leave the country. I really hesitate to make that connection but that is what the Nazis did to the Jews in the 1930s. Luckily, most British people do not support such behaviour but it was the hateful campaigning that made room for such people to think it is acceptable to do that to their neighbours.
Pingfah
The government and Murdoch press have been blatantly lying to the British public about immigration and demonising the EU for years, which is probably why people didn't believe Cameron when he tried to eventually tell the truth.
This Tory government have spent the last 5 years deliberately running the NHS into the ground, and then blaming it on immigration pressures, despite the fact that the NHS wouldn't be able to function at ALL if it weren't for immigrant workers, because hey, the government has also neglected the training of new staff, made becoming a Dcotor in the UK prohibitively expensive, and treated all the existing NHS staff like shit.
Leave voters are going to be very disappointed, we will probably end up paying as much as we were before, accepting Free Movement and EU regulations, but having no control over EU policy.
All these insane Leave voters have achieved is to tank the economy, reduce the values of all our properties and savings, and stoke up racial tensions. They are going to get nothing they hoped for, and remain stuck with everything they didn't. Frankly, the cunts deserve everything they are going to get, it's the rest of us that don't.
This Tory government have spent the last 5 years deliberately running the NHS into the ground, and then blaming it on immigration pressures, despite the fact that the NHS wouldn't be able to function at ALL if it weren't for immigrant workers, because hey, the government has also neglected the training of new staff, made becoming a Dcotor in the UK prohibitively expensive, and treated all the existing NHS staff like shit.
Leave voters are going to be very disappointed, we will probably end up paying as much as we were before, accepting Free Movement and EU regulations, but having no control over EU policy.
All these insane Leave voters have achieved is to tank the economy, reduce the values of all our properties and savings, and stoke up racial tensions. They are going to get nothing they hoped for, and remain stuck with everything they didn't. Frankly, the cunts deserve everything they are going to get, it's the rest of us that don't.
brENsKi
[QUOTE] [b]Pingfah wrote:[/b]
This Tory government have spent the last 5 years deliberately running the NHS into the ground, and then blaming it on immigration pressures, despite the fact that the NHS wouldn't be able to function at ALL if it weren't for immigrant workers, .[/QUOTE]
therein lies a huge slice of the problem. people making sweeping statements like the above.
The Government have done NO SUCH thing. stop and think about it - of 326 Tory MPs - only 70 are pro-Leave.
Remain MPs all 250 in the Tory side of the house - including almost ALL of the cabinet would not blame immigration on anything - it defeats their own argument to Remain
This Tory government have spent the last 5 years deliberately running the NHS into the ground, and then blaming it on immigration pressures, despite the fact that the NHS wouldn't be able to function at ALL if it weren't for immigrant workers, .[/QUOTE]
therein lies a huge slice of the problem. people making sweeping statements like the above.
The Government have done NO SUCH thing. stop and think about it - of 326 Tory MPs - only 70 are pro-Leave.
Remain MPs all 250 in the Tory side of the house - including almost ALL of the cabinet would not blame immigration on anything - it defeats their own argument to Remain
Pingfah
They weren't IN an argument to Remain until David Cameron needlessly made it a manifesto promise in order to guarantee a win for the Conservatives last year. This whole thing was just a play to keep them in power. If you haven't noticed what's been going on in the Press and from the government for the last 5 years, i'm not surprised this sailed effortlessly over your head either.
They have been blaming problem after problem on Immigration, which is why people have such an utterly distorted idea of what Immigration means to our country now. Cameron gambled that he could backtrack the damage he had done with his endless lies, and lost.
They have been blaming problem after problem on Immigration, which is why people have such an utterly distorted idea of what Immigration means to our country now. Cameron gambled that he could backtrack the damage he had done with his endless lies, and lost.
brENsKi
[QUOTE] [b]Pingfah wrote:[/b]
They weren't IN an argument to Remain until David Cameron needlessly made it a manifesto promise in order to guarantee a win for the Conservatives last year. This whole thing was just a play to keep them in power. If you haven't noticed what's been going on in the Press and from the government for the last 5 years, i'm not surprised this sailed effortlessly over your head either.
[/QUOTE]
i find the "over your head" comment insulting. but if you want to play that game
1] there wasn't a government until ONE year ago. the previous 5 years was a very pro-europe coalition, before that we had an equally pro-europe labour government for 12 years. so your comment is wholly inaccurate
2] your comments are typical of those who, when given a say on something do not like democracy unless the will of the people happens to comply completely with their own.
3] the referendum was presented in the manifesto because the Tories could see (immigration, trade rules, law-making) national issues for everyone - including their own party who were divided
4] much as the left-wing press and labour party like to claim that the whole thing is about immigration - it isn't. it's also about law-making, stifling red tape and unfair business competition across the whole eurozone - just ask workers at Bombardier.
5] there will be other countries to follow the Uk to the door
6] 52-48% of 72% of the population voted. the 28% who didn't vote are by consequence happy with either outcome. you can't NOT VOTE or not register to VOTE and then complain when things go the other way. NO VOTE = majority agreement, by default. regardless of what YOU think - this vote to leave - IS the will of the people.
If i behaved like you, i'd be demanding a re-run of 6 of the last NINE general elections whose results i didn't like. grow up, quit moaning, and let's move on. Our country will thrive and be better off free of europe if we work for it,
alternatively it'll sink under the burden of hand-wringers, moaners and the dissatisfied who refuse to accept democracy and pull together to succeed. - but then that's EXACTLY what those merchants of doom would prefer - the chance to say "i told you so" as THEIR negativity helps steer the bus off a cliff
They weren't IN an argument to Remain until David Cameron needlessly made it a manifesto promise in order to guarantee a win for the Conservatives last year. This whole thing was just a play to keep them in power. If you haven't noticed what's been going on in the Press and from the government for the last 5 years, i'm not surprised this sailed effortlessly over your head either.
[/QUOTE]
i find the "over your head" comment insulting. but if you want to play that game
1] there wasn't a government until ONE year ago. the previous 5 years was a very pro-europe coalition, before that we had an equally pro-europe labour government for 12 years. so your comment is wholly inaccurate
2] your comments are typical of those who, when given a say on something do not like democracy unless the will of the people happens to comply completely with their own.
3] the referendum was presented in the manifesto because the Tories could see (immigration, trade rules, law-making) national issues for everyone - including their own party who were divided
4] much as the left-wing press and labour party like to claim that the whole thing is about immigration - it isn't. it's also about law-making, stifling red tape and unfair business competition across the whole eurozone - just ask workers at Bombardier.
5] there will be other countries to follow the Uk to the door
6] 52-48% of 72% of the population voted. the 28% who didn't vote are by consequence happy with either outcome. you can't NOT VOTE or not register to VOTE and then complain when things go the other way. NO VOTE = majority agreement, by default. regardless of what YOU think - this vote to leave - IS the will of the people.
If i behaved like you, i'd be demanding a re-run of 6 of the last NINE general elections whose results i didn't like. grow up, quit moaning, and let's move on. Our country will thrive and be better off free of europe if we work for it,
alternatively it'll sink under the burden of hand-wringers, moaners and the dissatisfied who refuse to accept democracy and pull together to succeed. - but then that's EXACTLY what those merchants of doom would prefer - the chance to say "i told you so" as THEIR negativity helps steer the bus off a cliff
.
Jeremy Corbyn holds crisis talks with shadow cabinet.