As it began ' or any other books

Amidds, Gay culture is more of an open culture yes your correct so I dont know if what Freddie was doing in those early years which phoebe was referring too.I think when he entered a boyfriend status with Jim jim wasn't down with the open relationship thing and wanted more of a closed commitment like Mary.But to my own experiences and most gays do practice open relations yes.You had some good points thanks

Amidds, I'm in agreement with you about the generalizations of groups of people. We all do it, but we should make efforts not to. That said, I wonder if part of the reputation of gay men (specifically) being promiscuous has more to do with those particular times? The closet was just opening and it makes sense that there would have been a tendency to flaunt that freedom. Freddie's experience in NY is probably a good example of that: he felt he could be himself and lived fully because of that. As well, the gay community didn't have a diverse system of community places to gather: they had bars and nightclubs--and that's pretty much it.

Consider how different things are now: there's marriage equality (for the time being...) and, at least in most of the Western world, it isn't dangerous for two men to live together or even show PDA. The gay couples I know are married, long-term partners or young men who've dated and are planning marriage. Today, those in the LGBTQ community have churches, community organizations, neighborhoods in which they can fully participate without worry of being ostracized. Freddie Mercury and his gay contemporaries couldn't have imagined how different things would be, just 30 some-odd years in the future.

I like what MHZ said a few posts back, that if we looked just as closely at the heterosexual community, we might very well find much the same dynamics.

Well said TUHI. I've been struggling how to address this discussion and was unable to articulate my thoughts. You put my thoughts into words. I have gay friends who are married, both male and female. They have lovely, stable relationships. And I also agree with MHZ that the dynamics are much the same in both the gay and heterosexual community.

I do try hard not to make generalizations. I'm getting better at it, but it still happens.

TUHI,You are great at explaining this matter it's like you were actually there.I was a teenager in the late 80s early 90s alot of changes yescwell said.

I agree That Freddie's time in Newyork must have been the most enjoyable for him he was able to let his hair down and enjoy himself.Peter seem to enjoy himself too .I guess being his personal assistant and all he got to witness all the freedom and joy Freddie experienced first hand.So I tend to believe what he has written in his books to be accurate and true to the best of his knowledge will show.However to know him best I'm not so sure about that one in Jim's book I think it is he had got something caught in his throat and it was Joe Fanelli that realised what had happened and found fruit caught in his throat.He could handle him when he would have his mild fits that alot of AIDS patients have in their final stages.He had some anxiety Joe could help with this.Joe knew Freddie on a more intimate and friend level I think.Im gonna jump on a limb and say I think even some of his Friends in Newyork probably New him better than Peter did on a friend level.Peter was a employee and trusted friend but to know him the best I dont know about that.Thats why I think when alot was left out about his stretch in Newyork it would've been very helpful for this part of the story to be told.Well i guess it will be now how lucky we all are.

You know, this has been a really enlightening discussion, and well-articulated. Chevy, I do think you have a point about having more open relationships, I am almost wondering if that hasn’t developed as a result of the more promiscuous 80s? Maybe since many were “cheating” back then it became known that they were wanting more open availability of sexual experiences? I had more gay friends when I was younger and in the same bar/club scene, which is how I observed what they did. One thing I can say is it seemed that my friends would very quickly be in a relationship (supposedly monogamous), and then just as quickly sleep with another man, and then fantastic drama would ensue. I almost felt like the resulting fight was more fun for them than the cheating! My hetero friends did pretty much the same thing, they just slunk around and did it more quietly...and without the drama, I guess. The gay friends I have now are in more stable long-term relationships, so I suppose it is reflective of how age and life typically settle people down. Which goes to show we are all pretty much alike, I guess!

Katy, I am the same on the thought of sending young kids off to school and never seeing them, I don’t know how a parent could do it! I guess if you are trying to establish a future for them maybe that’s how you do it, but even then it would be tough. We know a lot more now about how childhood experiences shape adults, so maybe that’s part of not being able to let them go. It does make you wonder how different Freddie would have been...and I started wondering how different I would have been if I’d had that upbringing. That can mess with your mind, lol!

Back on the book note, I finished The Complete Works and it was very good. Really it is geared towards the individual songs and releases. I love how it details the musicians and who played specific instruments in each song. I learned a lot! I am now on to “The Treasures of Queen”, more of a general coffee table/collector type book so far. I haven’t learned anything new but it’s a nice collection of pictures and general info.

My humanzoo, I remember things in the late 80s being this way I was14.I was a rare exception I guess I had a gf we were together till 17 then I preferred male partners.But yes drama !drama! drama!I think everyone thought we would be together forever it just didnt happen.I cheated with a boy.I cant imagine sending a child off to school I bet Freddie was terrified.His mom I know missed him something awful mothers and sons have close bonds.I know I'm jumping around to a different book but Rosemary's book talked alot about Freddie confiding in her a woman about his same sex attractions to men.I had forgotten about her.So I think he trusted her on some level in his early years which would of been the sixties and a terrible time for him I imagine at least his gf he could talk to her and she noticed this early on in their relationship and accepted it as such.Her book is rather boring but it gives alot of insight into how this upcoming artist was feeling during this time in his life.

Ohhhh great conversation!! I have a lot of catching up to do. :-))

Good to see you JB! I've missed you.

One more comment on Phoebe's book and then I think I've run dry. He mentions the NY years frequently throughout the book. I find the book quite disorganized though and it requires some searching to find the NY sections though they are there and he does emphasize their importance. But one section that caught my eye and has always stuck with me begins on 182 and continues through the section we discussed extensively on love, friendship, relationships, etc. I'm not naïve, and lets just say I'm old enough to have lived through the drug culture that existed in those times. But I was still surprised at the amount and variety of drugs that they enjoyed. The scene that sticks with me is on page 186 where Phoebe describes going to their drug dealer for the weekend shopping. Apparently the dealer had a shop in his apartment and people queued up and were let in one at a time to shop. Various drugs were on display on a table and Phoebe moved along choosing the items that were on his list. What strikes me is...………….who does this???? Wasn't it a tremendous risk? If a line formed outside the apartment I'm assuming it was in the hall, but wasn't that kind of traffic noticed? Supposing Phoebe is arrested. Does he eat the list to avoid connecting Freddie to the deal? Of course I'm not serious about that, but if it had been me, I would have said heck no I'm not doing that!!!!!!! Not really much to discuss I guess, but I'm just struck by the danger and while I know Phoebe was both friend and employee, isn't there some point when you say no? Not worth the risk?

Katydyd, phoebe was a friend like you said he may have been indulging a little himself in these drugs I'm sure it was all types of good uppers they had the good stuff back then.So I'm sure if he might of been there to get some love juice for himself as well it was worth it.Stimulants make sex so much more enjoyable Freddie just wanted everybody to have a good time.He was such a thoughtful friend it probably didnt cross his mind anyone getting busted.If they did he had enough money to make it disappear catch my drift.

A grocery list for drugs that's funny lol

Katy, I always wondered about the same thing. In one of the many documentaries out there, Phoebe talks about the drug buying, too. It does seem risky, but it was the 80s and (like today) if you're a white guy, you're probably less likely to get busted. I remember reading somewhere that the police in London were aware that FM used cocaine, but because he was discreet (and famous and rich, of course), they left him alone. The very rich get to follow different rules than the rest of us. The more things change, the more they stay the same, I suppose. Snark intended. :)

I wondered about the drug thing too Katy....like really? A list? I’d like 9 poppers, 5 grams of cocaine, a few mushrooms (check for ripeness) and a little Angel dust? I’m trying to imagine this, lol! Was it like the art auctions....Freddie saying, “I shall not pay more than $100 for a gram of cocaine...and then Phoebe had to decide if it was ok to go over? “Phoebe...you KNEW I wanted that for the party, you should have paid full price!” : D

So having also been alive and quite possibly having knowledge of these things at the time (wink) it was much different and easier to get drugs. Also, there was a longer or maybe more diluted line from the dealers/suppliers to higher end users like Freddie. I am guessing that where Phoebe went was someone that specifically supplied to the rich and famous, so it wasn’t like a store where you wander in from the street with your list. Probably lots of precautions to get in there.

MHZ, I'm sure you're correct about that--a supplier for high-end customers.

I'm sure the dealers werent back alley dealers they were top of the line.Grocery list of drugs mushrooms what do those do and what is angel dust.I have tried cocaine before it's a waste of money you have to keep doing it to stay high.I have never had poppers is that like white crosses a type of speed as well.I seen somebody on mushrooms and they were really messed up.I dont think I would try that one.I used to take some black Molly's in the day.Freddie wouldnt have to tell me twice to join the fun I lived by the seat of my pants.I just never heard of any of those drugs other than the cocaine.What the hell are we doing here are we talking about something in the book I hope so or dope dealing lol.Well I know the speed intensifys things if you know what I mean .On the the dance floor it probably makes you a dancing queen.