As it began ' or any other books

I think Freddie liked his cake and eat it too.It was okay for him to cheat on his lovers but he didnt want to be the one cheated on.I do find this a bit of a selfish quality in a person.However if two people in a relationship choose to have multiple partners and they are both open to explore this option I do think it's fine to have multiple relationships because TuhI, you are correct sometimes you just cant get what you need from just one relationship I know this all too well.But these relationships I find are not too common or understood in the heterosexual community I know I'm not comfortable discussing this matter of my life with certain people because of the looks on their faces tell it all.Maybe Freddie had some of those same fears .You spend so many years building a wall trying to hide it so noone will figure you out.Its not easy as im sure it wasnt for him either we have to keep an open mind when discussing these topics because they can become confusing and complex to the outsider looking in on his life.

As far as Freddie's diagnosis werent some of those first ones told simply because they had been his sexual partners and they needed to know not simply because they were trusted more.Correct me if I'm wrong I dont remember.I would think he contacted those first circle of people because he had been intimate with them.

Well, Katy--great minds is all I have to say. :)

Yes, I read the second Freestone book and yes, I think self-serving describes a big chunk of it. I like his books for their good bits and pieces of information, gleaned because he lived and traveled with FM for so long. But both books are disorganized enough that if I want to refer to something that I remember, it's tough to find the reference and who has the time for that?

Chevy, I was only suggestion that FM had a wide array of friends whose company he enjoyed and that he and Jim had a comfortable and secure enough partnership that Jim was fine with Freddie staying up till all hours singing with Peter Straker, Mike Moran, or flying off to shop with Barbara Valentin, for example.

I think that the one place Jim drew the line was expecting Freddie to be faithful to him. In their first months together, Freddie continued the behavior he'd always shown with his partners: he regularly cheated on all of them. At some point (spring 1986-ish) and going forward, Freddie and Jim enjoyed a monogamous relationship.

As for the 'first circle' who knew about FM's diagnosis, I was going by Hutton's book and he listed the following: himself (after he returned from Ireland over an Easter holiday), Mary, Jim Beach, Joe, and Dominique Beyrand (Roger's partner, later wife). I assume FM must have notified ex-partners, but I don't believe I've ever read anything to confirm that and truthfully, I don't know what the medical protocol was at that time, in 1987. Later HIV/ AIDS patients were definitely encouraged to notify ex-partners, but I don't know when that became a recommendation.

Actually, that's an interesting question: did Freddie notify ex-partners? (Besides Joe?) Did he notify Winnie and any other guys that he had flings with in Munich or NY? If he did, it's remarkable that no one spilled the beans or demanded that he pay for their medical support. I suppose that would have put them at risk of being publicly ostracized given the time and the fear of the disease.

Tuhi, I wonder if any of them are still alive.Some people from the 80s that were diagnosed are living today there aren many but a few.I know one in my home state of Oklahoma all parties that were involved are deased but her she was diagnosed in 1989.I think Freddie told past flings that he could remember he was still friends with many of the young men he had encounters with he was overall a kind man.I think if he remembered who they were he contacted some of them.David minns was one I know for sure and Mary of course.Joe was one that was directly affected and yes I bet he told Winnie andbi honestly think Barbara knew before he left Germany.I just dont think she released it to the public she had many friends dying with the disease and she covered Freddie's face with her makeup so I pretty sure she knew.She also took care of Winnie.I hate to say but I feel strongly that Freddie may have been the one infecting the others it seems ofcourse not knowing he had .to me it seemed his circle of friends seemed to all be getting it and the all were linked to Freddie in some way.Kenny Everett was one.The list is long Bill Reid Tony basin all linked to Freddie it's so sad.

I don't want to delve too deeply into this subject because I'm trying to stay on topic with the book. But if I'm remembering correctly, and I don't have time to look right now, didn't David Minns find out about Freddie's diagnosis the way most others did? I think I remember him saying in his book that everyone knew Freddie was ill, and the rumors abounded, but that they had nothing else to go on. I know Lesley Ann Jones says Barbara knew in her book, but I tend to think most of what LAJ says is caca. Even the band, his work family, wasn't told until later and given strict instructions not to bring it up again. I tend to believe Jim's book when he lists the people who were told early on. Even Phoebe says he was told in a roundabout way. Freddie was not good with direct approaches to difficult topics, so I find it very hard to believe that he would have gone back and informed the legion of partners he had. He told those he knew could keep his secret and I think that was it.

Katydyd - I think the replying w/quote has to do with the three dots that only sometime appear by the "Posted 'date'" that appear by the name. Those only show up at random times for me so I couldn't confirm lol.

Re: Phoebe. I tend to agree that he prob didn't know FM better than everyone though he definitely had better knowledge than most. Freddie really seemed to section off his life didn't he? Even in his personal life, we've heard reports how he didn't include Mary with his close friends or kept certain friend groups apart. Yet, Phoebe, Joe and Jim and a few others seemed to be in that Vin diagram somewhere. So, while it's nice we get some info from him, I really try to keep in mind while reading it that it still is HIS opinion of events and of Freddie's thoughts. I think Freddie was WAY too complicated of a person for Phoebe to accurately decipher. He made another statement in his book that kinda bothered me more with this read through regarding cheating. It was along the lines of gay people tend to cheat all the time. I don't like those kind of generalizations. Feel free to correct me if you feel I'm wrong but, human nature tells me that's a little too sweeping to attach to any group. So, again, I will take it with a grain of salt.

Good questions with who knew the diagnosis and when. If memory serves, the statements haven't been wholly consistent? If you take the times into account - I don't think there was real definite knowledge of how it was spread until the mid to late 80's. Remember in Thor and Lee's posts when they mentioned that at first, everyone thought it was Popper's that was causing the disease? And they didn't have reliable tests until the mid 80's. By the time, they knew the how and could confirm it, then add in the fact they Freddie had....um....a lot of lovers (is that a nice way to say it lol) how do you know who to go back and tell. It would really narrow it down to who you are still in close contact with I guess like Joe, Jim, Winnie (if they were still communicating). Don't remember for sure with David Minns....I know Freddie got back in touch with him but I thought that David said nothing was specifically mentioned about AIDS, just that he guessed. Anyone look back into that?

Heading to Florida tomorrow so I will probably read through Peter's second book then. Gosh, Katy, I don't remember that in Jim's book either, guess I'll try to refresh my memory on that tomorrow as well.

I was just giving my input on Freddie's diagnosis and the speculations following his diagnosis.It was also mentioned above.Im also very intrigued by TUHI its interpretation on FM it's like she knew him perso ally and she makes some valid points concerning phoebe's position in Freddie's life.

I mean her interpretation sorry

I am the same on the quotes on here, if anyone figures it out, please share! I have messed around and tried a bunch of things but never got it to work.

Amidds, I understand what you are saying about generalizing on the cheating behavior. I hate to generalize too, but I do have to say that of the gay men I’ve known they are very much as Phoebe described, rather promiscuous and not able to maintain “romantic” relationships. Yet having very loving and dedicated long-term friendships...with males and females, much as Freddie did. I am certain that it doesn’t describe everyone, of course. I suppose it could be the same with heterosexuals, if we sat down and critiqued it in the same way.

I always find it interesting to ponder whether Freddie’s upbringing and being away from his parents really impacted his adult relationships and behaviors. It seems like it would have to, but how might he have been different if he had been brought up at home? Would he have just been able to have a long term relationship? Would he have been as creative and motivated to succeed? Would he have become a concert pianist instead? Or would he have been pretty much the same? Fascinating!

I think you're correct, Katy. Most friends and colleagues suspected, but didn't know for certain and it was only the inner circle (those I mentioned in my earlier post) who were told in '87), with a slightly wider circle (the boys in the band, Freestone, others(?) ) learning about the diagnosis in '89.

A slight change of topic, but still book related, I recently read and loved "The Great Believers" by Rebecca Makkai. It's about a cast of wonderful characters caught up in the AIDS crisis, spanning the years from 1985 to 2015, with a couple of stops in 1991-92. I couldn't put the book down and re-read it immediately. It's fiction, but she's done quiet a bit of research into how the gay community and their families in Chicago responded to the onslaught of deaths from the disease. A finalist for the Pulitzer, it's won all sorts of other awards. Wonderful read.

http://rebeccamakkai.com/work/the-great-believers/

Hi Everyone....

Enjoying the great book conversations. Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful comments and replies. Although I haven't jumped into any of the discussions yet, I do check out this thread and am always appreciative when someone cites the page numbers that are being referenced (when that is possible). For this last conversation, Amidds specifically mentioned pages 188-189...that helped a lot. Otherwise, I'd be thumbing through the whole book. Thanks for saving me the time!

Human zoo, maybe Freddie wouldve become a young Liberace who knows.I think he was a unique person all his own.You were referring to what phoebe said about gay men being promiscuous I dont think from an outsider's stand point they understand that it's just a more open loving culture.Think about the 60s that was an awesome era I would of loved to had been born in that era.Its true that gays may have alot of different types of relationships with people but they arent always for sexual purposes.For an example take two men just because they are two gay men they hang out doesnt mean they have had sex.They may not be attracted to eachother.It was hard back in the day to be gay professionally and in your family so of course you had all kinds
of Male friends.As far as the clubs phoebe would probably have to attend to as apart of his job I'm sure he witnessed Freddie pick up guys from time to time.I think guys went to the clubs not just to pick up guys but just to feel acceptance amongst others that experienced the same struggles they did.They also went to dance lol to celebrate life.
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Rainbow!! Nice to see you, and even nicer if you'd join in. I always enjoy your thoughts. I do like the of indicating pages if at all possible. It makes it so much easier than searching through and trying to remember where I saw things.

THUI, thanks for the book recommendation. I immediately put it into my Amazon cart as I know I would enjoy it. Unfortunately I'm still climbing out from under the Christmas bills and can't actually order it just yet.

I've skimmed through the Minns/Evans book looking for any information about Freddie sharing his diagnosis David Minns. I assumed it would be in the final section of the book because that's where the contributors share about his decline and death, but it wasn't there. However, on page 82, Minns talks about being invited to a recording session with Montserrat and Freddie. He says he was shocked to notice the KC lesions on his face, but Freddie just blew it off as a liver complaint. On page 87 David Evans says there came a time when it was obvious he was ill, but equally obvious that he didn't want to discuss it. Evans also says at some point it was impossible not to guess what was going on and at that point Freddie invited him to lunch and confided in him. Unfortunately he doesn't give a year, but I would assume this was fairly far into the illness. I suspect that if I were to read that book again, for the fourth or fifth time, I'd be able to find other references where those around him respected his desire to avoid talking about it. This is one of my favorite Freddie books and like THUI mentioned with her book recommendation, as soon as I finished it, I reread it again.

MHZ, I too find it interesting to ponder about how the time at boarding school affected Freddie. I've found on page 16 where Phoebe talks about his own time at a boarding school, but I think he speculates more later in the book on the affect it had on Freddie. At the moment I can't find that. Anyone???? He does bring it up on page 189, so maybe that's what I'm remembering. Sending such a young child off to a boarding school so far away is a totally foreign concept to me. I can't even begin to imagine sending either of my boys away at age 7 or 8, and then seeing them maybe once a year until they were 16. Enduring that separation at such a young age had to have affected his later relationships. I know he had family in India, but it's not the same as being with your parents during those formative years. On the other hand, we know very little about his parents. Both seemed to place high emphasis on a career, so would they have indulged young Freddie in piano lessons? If he hadn't been away from his biological family and thus forced to make "family" out of his schoolmates, would he have had the freedom to form a band in his early years? I feel like I've read a book where several of his schoolmates contributed information about his years in India, but I'm not sure what it would have been. I have a couple of other books about Freddie so I'll poke around in them to see if I can find anything. Maybe I'm thinking of a documentary. I know in a recent documentary we all saw ,his first girlfriend Rosemary shared some memories. Didn't she say that she too went to boarding school? Maybe that experience is like membership in a very unique club. As we all continue reading various books it might be fun to try to find out more info on those early years.

Let me just clear up what I said about generalizing...I just don’t like to do that with anyone. I am guilty of it too and I try very hard not to. Every time I do, I always remind myself about so-and-so who doesn’t fit the mold so it’s just something that rings a bell with me. If “cheating” is something more common in the gay community, it wasn’t something I had heard before so it makes me wonder even more why Freddie seemed shocked by this beyond the fact that he tended to do it himself lol! Also, not something I’m judging, Chevy, a something you say is a common practice but I wonder if you are referring more to open relationships vs “cheating”? To me, cheating is something done when you have an expectation of monogamy. If that’s the case, then trust is broken. If it’s an open relationship, the you do you boo!

TUHI, sounds like an awesome book, will add it to my list now. Love to have lots of plane reading material! Thanks!

Hi Rainbow, I will try to keep in mind about the page numbers! I don’t always have the references with me when I post and I’m not sure how Kindle translates to actual book page numbers but, I will try to notate where’s I’m getting it from too so it will help :)

Re boarding school...very interesting thought. Such formative years where a family’s love and influence could have such a great effect on a child’s development but would it have diverted Freddie’s path so we would’ve lost out on such a wonderful, soulful voice, creative person and lover of life???? I shudder to think of it!!