Brexit......

So, we're off then. Finally.

Auf wiedersehn, pet. Ta ta!

Good luck plugging that financial hole and supporting those initiatives we've been bankrolling for 44 years.

Our apologies for the crassness of Nigel Farage and his right wing loonies, though. They're not representative.

However, on balance, we'll be better off on the whole and it'll not be too long before other countries see the "Union" for what it is - a method of making more successful economies prop up this shitty ones.

It's been.........real.

The main question is - how will it influence my shopping on amazon.co.uk and ebay.co.uk? But anyway, congratulations. Hopefully you won't regret it. Neither do we.

Goodbye and good riddance to the EU. Shame we couldn't have left 20 years ago.

So have we left with a deal or no deal, does anyone know?

Bye, bye England. Thanks for fish and chips, warm beer and weird sausages. May the left lanes lead you into a shining tax heaven and business paradise for Boris and Donald.

[QUOTE] [b]rockchic65 wrote:[/b]So have we left with a deal or no deal, does anyone know?[/QUOTE]

when you say "we" you're implying you're in the UK. if this is the case then shame on you for not knowing after the last 3½yrs that we have officially left, but now the "future arrangement" is discussed.

this is the "transition period" and runs up until Dec 31st 2020. if no trade deal has been agreed by that time - highly likely when you hear the demand from the unelected in Brussels, then at that point we would leave without a deal.

if someone can tell me why "being bound by the european court" and "access to UK fishing waters" (EU demands) are reasonable demands for a deal, then I'm all ears.

fact is, the eu sells more to uk than we do to the eu. therefore a zero-tariff trade deal is in their interests - without all these extra demands.
how much wine and cheese do france and italy, and cars do germany think they'll sell to the uk when it all has a 25% duty levied? an italian MEP has really criticised Barnier and co today.

the european council have - once again - postured beyond their own powers, and unless they dial down on this, they'll end up breaking their own project. maybe not now, but certainly within 5-10 years...it could all be gone.

[QUOTE] [b]brENsKi wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]rockchic65 wrote:[/b]So have we left with a deal or no deal, does anyone know?[/QUOTE]

when you say "we" you're implying you're in the UK. if this is the case then shame on you for not knowing after the last 3½yrs that we have officially left, but now the "future arrangement" is discussed.

this is the "transition period" and runs up until Dec 31st 2020. if no trade deal has been agreed by that time - highly likely when you hear the demand from the unelected in Brussels, then at that point we would leave without a deal.

if someone can tell me why "being bound by the european court" and "access to UK fishing waters" (EU demands) are reasonable demands for a deal, then I'm all ears.

fact is, the eu sells more to uk than we do to the eu. therefore a zero-tariff trade deal is in their interests - without all these extra demands.
how much wine and cheese do france and italy, and cars do germany think they'll sell to the uk when it all has a 25% duty levied? an italian MEP has really criticised Barnier and co today.

the european council have - once again - postured beyond their own powers, and unless they dial down on this, they'll end up breaking their own project. maybe not now, but certainly within 5-10 years...it could all be gone.

[/QUOTE]

Yeah I'm in the UK and I know we officially left yesterday but after Maybot's endless trips to Brussels with the same rejected deal I lost the will to live over the whole thing and stopped following the situation so I wasn't sure exactly where we were up to. I realized a while ago that aside from casting my vote I can't do a damn thing about any of it but I was just curious if a deal was anywhere near being struck since I wasn't closely following things.

I won't pretend to know much about the ins and outs of the rest of it, I'm not exactly into politics tbh.

@brenski - just to say a few words from EU perspective: England does not want a simple trade deal with one country, they want access to the single market of now 27 countries. The single market was created to enable the member countries to move goods, services and people freely within that market. Therefore, we have the same working rights, food and safety protection rules etc as the basis for this single market. You are either out or in the single market. If you are a third country and you want to trade with the single market you have to accept these rules or else you cannot move freely within that market, it's easy. If England now wants to be a tax haven, reduce worker rights and safety regulations and also wants to close their border to free movement from other EU countries, they cannot be part of the single market. They also cannot have trade deals with single member states because in the EU we all follow the rules of the single market (which is very beneficial for all of us).

You say that England does not trade as much with the EU as the other way round. Half of England's trade goes to the EU but no EU country trades that much with England, it's because we are 27. Also, foreign companies in England must abide by EU rules if they want access to the single market. If England leaves the market, a Japanese company in England (for example) needs to leave the market as well - or they relocate into the remaining EU to ensure access to the single market. German companies in England are very alarmed about that. It will be very unfortunate to be in a third country so close to the EU.

All of that was not invented to annoy the English, it's been a development which gives big and small EU countries more economical power in the world. For 47 years England was a part of it and helped to build that union. If they now leave they should not blame the remaining members.

@yourvalentine
i think you miss my points: "If we leave"??? I think you'll find we have already left.
No one in the UK is blaming the remaining member states. We're blaming unelected officials making laws and taking arbitrary decisions without consultation.
>> we don't want a single market style trade deal. we want a Canada-type deal. that's fine by us.
>> you're making spurious claims about tax havens, and worker's rights. you forget that most of European equality laws came from laws originally passed in the UK - BEFORE the EU ever existed.
>> I'm talking about the import/export balance with the EU as one Federalist state (which is how it considers itself). We the UK (not England as you state) export less to the EU than the EU exports to us. Therefore, any trade deal is of more interest to the main countries financing your bloc; Germany, France, italy - countries who just happen to be those exporting the most to the UK. These countries - especially your won (Germany) are not going to be able to sell their products to the Uk when they cost 25% more. How many Audis, Mercs and BMWs do you think you'll sell to the UK when they ALL cost 25% more? Further compounded by the USA alternatives suddenly becoming 25% cheaper - when our trade deals are struck outside of the EU shackles.

The EU project is dead - not yet, but it's on its knees and gasping for air. why?
>> your second largest financier (UK) has just left, someone has got to pick up the tab for the financial (£18bn) per year shortfall. Don't expect the poorer countries (Italy, Greece, Portugal) to contribute more, and don't expect your newer members to afford it either. France is in a mess (financially) which leaves just Germany. Can you imagine the reaction from Germans asked to pay more for everyone else?
>> Your bloc has been trying (incredibly) unsuccessfully to strike a trade deal with the US - the problem being that 27 countries just can't agree. And they won't while a trade deal only ever benefits a few.
>> immigration, the southern EU countries are not happy with immigration - and what how it has changed their unique identity.
>> Merkel's legacy for Germany will be a bad one, she made a brave (but ill-considered) move to accept 900,000 immigrants.

we possibly won't be around to see it die, but the EU is going to die - within 10 years. The UK has left, and other countries; especially those bullied by the non-elected EU into having a second referendum to overturn one "LEAVE" vote, will now start to rethink their position(s). Then there's the Eastern countries who want to leave anyway. - they'll take our lead and follow. People don't like being told how to live their lives by unelected rule-makers.

What will be left will be ONE EU superstate: France, Germany, the Baltics and Ukraine, and that will wither on its own vine.

Rant over. But really, we're better off out. Any mistakes, are ours to make and not that of some dictatorial bureaucrats in Brussels.
We're constitutional Peasants (like the opening scene from Python's Holy Grail), and we're proud to have our identity and sovereignty back.

One day, you'll see this too.

You bring up a lot of new issues.

I don't think the EU will die but I cannot look into the future, so we will have to see. Actually, Germans will have to pay more after Brexit but I don't think it will cause a public uproar, Germans are used to it. The majority in Germany thinks that EU gives us peace and a good relationship with our neighbours and therefore the money is justified. Like we are not half as concerned about the future of the car industry as English people seem to be. The big concern and danger to the Union is the alarming tendency to give up democratic principles in some Eastern countries which could in fact lead to a split of the EU.

The hatred and spite versus the Syrian refugees let into the country in 2015 is beyond me. Yes, we have problems, yes the right wing extremists successfully addressed the xenophobia within our country and now we have a right wing problem on top but what exactly should we have done with a million people already in Austria and Hungary. That has nothing to do with the EU because the refugees are not EU citizens and cannot move freely to other EU countries. What I don't understand is how we can watch unmoved when thousands of poor men, women and kids live under inhumane conditions in tents on Greek islands and nobody helps them. What are our European values worth when we allow this to happen?

I always find it funny when English people claim that the EU officials are unelected, no they are not unelected. The voting procedures should and must be improved and mainly the commission should be elected via the EU parliament and not be picked by the heads of national governments. However, the national governments were all elected in proper elections and have the authority and democratic legitimacy to act on behalf of their countries and thus the institutions are not "unlected" quite opposite to the House of Lords and the Queen of England who are not elected.

I

[QUOTE] [b]brENsKi wrote:[/b] @yourvalentine i think you miss my points: "If we leave"??? I think you'll find we have already left. No one in the UK is blaming the remaining member states. We're blaming unelected officials making laws and taking arbitrary decisions without consultation. >> we don't want a single market style trade deal. we want a Canada-type deal. that's fine by us. >> you're making spurious claims about tax havens, and worker's rights. you forget that most of European equality laws came from laws originally passed in the UK - BEFORE the EU ever existed. >> I'm talking about the import/export balance with the EU as one Federalist state (which is how it considers itself). We the UK (not England as you state) export less to the EU than the EU exports to us. Therefore, any trade deal is of more interest to the main countries financing your bloc; Germany, France, italy - countries who just happen to be those exporting the most to the UK. These countries - especially your won (Germany) are not going to be able to sell their products to the Uk when they cost 25% more. How many Audis, Mercs and BMWs do you think you'll sell to the UK when they ALL cost 25% more? Further compounded by the USA alternatives suddenly becoming 25% cheaper - when our trade deals are struck outside of the EU shackles. The EU project is dead - not yet, but it's on its knees and gasping for air. why? >> your second largest financier (UK) has just left, someone has got to pick up the tab for the financial (£18bn) per year shortfall. Don't expect the poorer countries (Italy, Greece, Portugal) to contribute more, and don't expect your newer members to afford it either. France is in a mess (financially) which leaves just Germany. Can you imagine the reaction from Germans asked to pay more for everyone else? >> Your bloc has been trying (incredibly) unsuccessfully to strike a trade deal with the US - the problem being that 27 countries just can't agree. And they won't while a trade deal only ever benefits a few. >> immigration, the southern EU countries are not happy with immigration - and what how it has changed their unique identity. >> Merkel's legacy for Germany will be a bad one, she made a brave (but ill-considered) move to accept 900,000 immigrants. we possibly won't be around to see it die, but the EU is going to die - within 10 years. The UK has left, and other countries; especially those bullied by the non-elected EU into having a second referendum to overturn one "LEAVE" vote, will now start to rethink their position(s). Then there's the Eastern countries who want to leave anyway. - they'll take our lead and follow. People don't like being told how to live their lives by unelected rule-makers. What will be left will be ONE EU superstate: France, Germany, the Baltics and Ukraine, and that will wither on its own vine. Rant over. But really, we're better off out. Any mistakes, are ours to make and not that of some dictatorial bureaucrats in Brussels. We're constitutional Peasants (like the opening scene from Python's Holy Grail), and we're proud to have our identity and sovereignty back. One day, you'll see this too. [/QUOTE] So you want the whole of Europe to suffer? If they suffer the UK will too because we'll have to make future agreements with them. We can't just survive on our own. This is so true:

[QUOTE] [b]YourValentine wrote:[/b]
I always find it funny when English people claim that the EU officials are unelected, no they are not unelected. The voting procedures should and must be improved and mainly the commission should be elected via the EU parliament and not be picked by the heads of national governments. However, the national governments were all elected in proper elections and have the authority and democratic legitimacy to act on behalf of their countries and thus the institutions are not "unlected" quite opposite to the House of Lords and the Queen of England who are not elected. [/QUOTE]
@YourValentine, they are unelected. The chief posts on the EU council are appointed by three individuals. that is not elected, that is nepotism. These people get to make decisions and then when other countries - Ireland for example - vote to leave, these autocrats instruct them to vote again until they get it right. How democratic is that? It's dictatorial.
The UK house of lords and the queen do not actually decide our laws, they scrutinse them and recommend amendments, but where a parliamentary democracy presides in the commons with Govt benches holding a healthy majority. any influence (perceived or otherwise) that the Lords may hold is negated.


[QUOTE] [b]Young Music Fan wrote:[/b]So you want the whole of Europe to suffer? If they suffer the UK will too because we'll have to make future agreements with them. We can't just survive on our own.[/QUOTE]
No. far from it. I would prefer the EU to succeed - but it is doomed, regrettably by it's reluctance to accept requests for operational change.
And, you have missed a point here, we will not be alone. The UK will have the rest of the world to trade with, to grow again with and to forge relationships with. The EU will not, because 27 countries cannot agree universally (historically). It's a self-fulfilling failure - by default.

"On our own" (Sinn Fein) - as (they) say in Ireland (I'm Irish/British) is the best way to be. A confident proud nation should always chart its own course, and make its own decisions. We will be Great (again).

I also think the "peace" thing is a myth Barbara. There have been no wars, because no one wants a war, not because the EU as a concept makes it impossible.

@Young Music Fan - your graphic doesn't really say much does it? Or it can say what YOU want it to say - or what I want it to say.
Sure, the liberal-left (you know who I mean) the group of elite parliamentarians who spent three whole years subverting the largest democratic vote in our history - on the basis that "yes, you can have your vote, but WE know better". Sounds exactly like the EU telling Ireland and others to re-run their referendums until they get the "correct" result. present the time-worn argument that it was all racist, bigoted, old people that voted leave and that "they've had their lives and it was selfish voting", by people with no futures anyway.

I would counter, that the older generation have the ACTUAL experience of the EU, the day-to-day life of what new laws and bureaucracy have done to our country. I would also say that all of those "old racist bigots" that the left-wing elite keep criticising may well be the ONLY people qualified to know what it's like, and they've very unselfishly voted leave to ensure their children/grandchild/great-grandchildren have the chance of a self-governing, better future.

As everyone knows, I am not from the UK or the EU, but what stands out to me from this conversation is “the Baltics and Ukraine.” Sorry If I sound like a conspiracy nut, but I think the goal IS to weaken and completely destroy the European Union so that those right wing radicals can take over.

[QUOTE] [b]SweetCaroline wrote:[/b]

As everyone knows, I am not from the UK or the EU, but what stands out to me from this conversation is “the Baltics and Ukraine.” Sorry If I sound like a conspiracy nut, but I think the goal IS to weaken and completely destroy the European Union so that those right wing radicals can take over.

[/QUOTE]

LOL

Do you even have any circumstantial evidence that might satisfy a conspiracy nut?

[QUOTE] [b]SweetCaroline wrote:[/b]

As everyone knows, I am not from the UK or the EU, but what stands out to me from this conversation is “the Baltics and Ukraine.” Sorry If I sound like a conspiracy nut, but I think the goal IS to weaken and completely destroy the European Union so that those right wing radicals can take over.

[/QUOTE]

yes you are - a conspiracy nut. there is NO GOAL to do anything, idiot.

my reference to the Baltics and Ukraine is this:
the Baltic states all joined together, so I would think the "three musketeers" would either stay together, or leave together. makes it harder to leave if there's a collective sub-group.
Ukraine is not a member, but holds a special associate member status combined with a free trade deal. so, my conjecture is that - as others leave, Ukraine may actually fully join, and by consequence be one of the few remainers when the EU project finally expires.