You don't fool me origin

Sebastian wrote:

In the case he did some recording in NY later, those would be the second sketches, not the first anyway:)

But that is my point Seb - "what is a sketch" - as you conveniently forget to answer the question.

Is a sketch an "original idea", a "theory", a "few words" a "verse" a "chorus" - or is it few "written notes", or is it a demo "recording" of some sort?

The FIRST recordings of "Too Much Love" are on the "Bellboy tape" which itself comes from NY. (It COULD come from LA - but I have no evidence to support this - but that does NOT mean that the LA theory is incorrect).

The complete tape demonstrates without doubt, the track grew as a "work in progress", and that each additional "track" was littered with fragments that did not make the final cut. So it is certain that Brian did not have the full song (or anything like it) in mind before the tape was recorded.

That does NOT contradict Brian's LA "sketches" claim.

However, the "Bellboy tape" DOES prove that this was democratically recorded over a few hours - and I can guarantee that this tracks the song from the very first note/idea to the first full-blown demos, and that no earlier versions exist.

In otherwords; NO WAY does this tape reflect "...second sketches...".

Finally, to repeat myself: Therefore, I can deduce that both the "proper" studio and Freddie sessions came later (Regardless whether it was a NY or LA birth).

I agree that Fred`s sessions should be later. But, to clear something, I didn`t say I think or believe or am sure that the song started in LA, Brian could have simply misremembered after all those years. Maybe it was NY and he said LA, who knows. Same case as Masterstroke studio, or the brand of the tour piano, etc. In fact Brian`s memory seems to be a little off last years imo

Seb: I agree with you that LA is the most LIKELY place for a recording because as pointed out earlier - Brian did live there at one time.

But, as an example: in answer to the question "When did Freddie record "Mr Bad Guy"? to say between "The Works" and "Barcelona" is MORE accurate than saying "A Night At The Opera" and "Barcelona" - both are correct, but one is MORE precise than the other.

I conceed you may well be correct about the LA thing, (and as suggested above it does make more sense), but like the above example, to say Freddie recorded the track between NY - and "The Miracle" is MORE accurate than "LA and the Miracle" because the former is a more precise time scale.

Philip you asked: "I wonder why you state on your website that the piano on this song was programmed rather than played".

Seb answered: "It was actually 50-50. I mean, he corrected mistakes in the midi, which originally came from a live performance. That doesn`t go for the BTTL version, in which he did play the whole thing live..."

If we are still talking about "Too Much Love Will Kill You", this is not the case. A Hollywood records "Karaoke" version was miss-pressed and is affectionately known as the "piano/demo version. (I know I am not the only Zoner to have this disc!)

Between the Bellboy tape, and the Hollywood miss-press, we know that the piano WAS played (not programmed) for the studio release, and that the "Back To The Light" version was not live but a complete studio performance.

When I said `BTTL was live` (or something to that effect) I meant that the piano was played live (I mean, from the beginning to the end of the song, same take), instead of "first verse, cut, now, roll the tape, second verse, cut... now put the takes together". I didn`t mean he played it in a concert

Bo Rhap is also a live backing track (I mean, Roger, John and Fred played their parts at the same time and left the take), while the lead vocal is compiled from different tracks and edited.

OK Seb: but that's not "really" live is it - that's more in "One-take" is it not?

Also: Philip asked, "I wonder why you state on your website that the piano on this song was programmed rather than played".

But the piano was played rather than programmed - as the Hollywood "karaoke" demonstrates.

As for Bo Rhap: "Bo Rhap is also a live backing track (I mean, Roger, John and Fred played their parts at the same time and left the take), while the lead vocal is compiled from different tracks and edited".

I don't think this is correct either, as the GVH1 "Making of Bo Rhap" extra track, (and the new BBC doc) suggest otherwise.

The one in the Made In Heaven album is edited, as most pianos in the album, and Brian`s solo projects. "Programmed rather than played" is incorrect from me. I agree.

"Live performance" (as I wrote answering to Phillip) is technically correct for what I meant but can create confusions. I`ll avoid that one from now on. "Live recording", on the other hand is a valid term.

John S Stuart wrote:

Thanks Lester, but the problem is my life is too short to become involved in point-scoring, and wall-pissing competitions, and the sad fact is that I can never win.

For example, I have already in previous threads written a little about "The Game", "The Works", "A Kind Of Magic" and "You Don't Fool Me",
and in each occassion I have had to "fight" to demonstrate the things I said were "broadly" correct. (See above example).

In some cases this has been my own fault. As an academic, I am sure you understand that rather than bore with detailed minutia, to simplify things I have glossed over some details and talked in "broad-brush strokes" about others - but this brings howls of "wrong/inacurate and you are a fraud/cheat/blaggard" or whatever.

Then, if I say, I know about this because "I have the acetate" - I am accused of both upsetting the board by showing off - and in turn become a braggard.

Finally; much of what I write in Queenzone is stolen and appears on other web pages without as much as a "thank-you", then, when I point out a minor correction - the substitute site - is held up as the authority. (The Bell Boy tape is a good example - as I think someone once wrote to tell me that my track listing was inaccurate!).

So there you have it, in sum: I am "damned if I do, and damned if I don't". I am not a gun-slinger, and I do not enjoy "personal pops" - as they do "get" to me.

It is a shame - but that's life I suppose!

Fortunately, most of us believe you; I have read your posts over the years and have enjoyed every single one, hardly doubting you over minute details. If you were to post a huge thread, it would not only be incredibly informative, but I'm sure the silent majority would appreciate it greatly. It's often rare that a Queen scholar such as yourself appears, and I find fascinating all the information the band is 'hiding' from us.

But I understand why you won't post; I just want you to know that most of us will appreciate it, even if there are certain naysayers who pick over every detail.

If you were to maybe e-mail me (if you had the time, of course!), I'd greatly appreciate it. I would of course use it for my own uses. Just from one Queen fan to another.

Ahem...

Permit me an interjection...

Seb & John (& even Brian) could all be right....

Brian is in LA, has an idea (and I agree about the source - his relationship with Anita & his wife, which makes this late 1986), and jots down a few lyrical ideas. On paper. "sketches" if you like. Now, hasn't he said Frank Musker was his therapist? Hypothetically, let's say he is & he's based in NY. So, Brian's staying there, one thing leads to another and a bellboy makes a couple of grand, from the first recordings of this new song...

What do we think (in broad brush stroke terms, obviously)?

One big thumbs-up to the Guru.

Two big thumbs up to the Guru. (Although that is what I have been trying to say all along!)

"Frank Musker was his therapist...?" I never knew that. You sh*tting me?

As a matter of fact, Brian`s quote was: "For the record, as far as I remember, I played piano on ... we began using synthesisers and there were many excursions from all of us into keyboard territory. My main contributions were ... Too Much Love Will Kill You - which was done with Frank Musker up in his house in the canyon LA when we first sketched the song -, No One but You... and of course who Wants To Live forever".

So Frank was also in LA, in fact they were at Frank`s place. Anyway, I`m not saying "John`s right" or "John`s wrong", I just say Brian said that. It can be right, or it can be wrong (considering that last years he has said Masterstroke was recorded at Wessex and was part of either Opera or Races, John wrote the bassline of Under Pressure...).

So perhaps Brian confused NY with LA, or perhaps from LA they travelled to NY to meet Elizabeth. I`m not drawing any deep conclusion here, keyword: PERHAPS

> I don't think this is correct either, as the GVH1 "Making of Bo Rhap" extra track, (and the new BBC doc) suggest otherwise.

The documentary says that piano, bass and drums were one take. Remember all Brian`s comments about "the feel the energy...". When Fred has a little glitch on the piano he said "who cares it`s live", he also mentioend "the take was the take". As for lead vocal compiled from different takes, the documentary doesn`t confirm or deny it in any point.

Well, it does, in fact. Brian said about Fred in the hard rock section "he`s very hoarse and he`s double tracked...", so if he was double tracked, then it couldn`t be just one take

I think the "therapist" tag comes from Brian's comments on TMLWKY after he and Frank recieved an Ivor Novello for the song. He claimed that writing the song was emotional for him and that Frank acted as a kind of therapist in the writing of the song. Frank Musker is an accomplished lyricist who has worked with numerous artists from all over the world. How much he contributed to the music of the song remains to be seen. I do believe that he helped convey some of Brian's emotions into the lyrics. I don't believe Liz Lamers really contributed much in the actual writing of the song. She was given a songwriting credit, however. Anytime Brian mentions the crafting of TMLWKY, he refers to Frank and himself. In fact, only Musker and Brian received the Ivor Novello award.
I remember hearing a rumor on the old QMS that Lamers came up with the phrase Too Much Love Will Kill You, and therefore she was given a co-writer credit. But she was obviously there to work on the initial drafts of the song.
I've just always wondered if Brian came up with all the music himself, or if Frank contributed at all. The song certainly bears many of Brian's trademarks. But I believe Frank was certainly a "therapist" to Brian then in the way he translated the emotions Brian was conveying to him over his situation into song lyrics.

Yes, Frank is basically a lyricist, but I think he also writes music (e.g. Air Supply`s Every Woman In The World). I think some of the lyrics are too proffessional to be Brian`s. But as he said, the first keyboard parts were done with Frank, so I guess between the two of them they decided the chords and stuff.

Many Brian`s trademarks (for example the I>IV/6>vi cliche) are general trademarks of ballad songwriters, nearly everyone uses them.

Sebastian said - "The documentary says that piano, bass and drums were one take. Remember all Brian`s comments about "the feel the energy...". When Fred has a little glitch on the piano he said "who cares it`s live", he also mentioend "the take was the take". As for lead vocal compiled from different takes, the documentary doesn`t confirm or deny it in any point".

- All that is true enough in that that is exactly what Brian confirms on the GVHI DVD. In watching the Bo Rhap segment, it is suggested very strongly that Fred, Rog and John recorded the entire backing-track bed of piano, bass and drums in one uninterrupted take.

However, Roy Thomas Baker seems to imply otherwise in this article, http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1995_articles/oct95/queen.html, instead suggesting that the Bo Rhap basic backing-track is a composite of 3 different takes from F, R and J.

Who knows who to believe?

Maybe the one-take thing only refers to the ballad section.