Fufkin, you're an idiot.
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Do you people honestly think you'll be fully safe if you kick out all of the muslims? How thick can you possibly get? Most terrorist organizations are NOT based in the country they're against, and someone does not have to actually live in your country in order to hurt you. Also, there have been Westerner terrorists before, and if you want to maintain the idea of kicking every potential terrorist out, then you will have to evacuate the whole country.
On top of that, where would you like to put all of those people? Wherever they go, they'll have to start off a new, and probably much worse, life, which will only cultivate the hate they feel for the western world.
If everyone of islamic nationalities felt more welcome, accepted, and respected by the more powerful countries, then there would certainly be much less anger towards us, and therefore less terrorism.
I'm pretty sure the Cat Stevens thing was a mistake. I remember hearing that he had the same muslim name as someone who was an alleged terrorist, or something of that sort, but I may be totally off there.
On top of that, where would you like to put all of those people? Wherever they go, they'll have to start off a new, and probably much worse, life, which will only cultivate the hate they feel for the western world.
If everyone of islamic nationalities felt more welcome, accepted, and respected by the more powerful countries, then there would certainly be much less anger towards us, and therefore less terrorism.
I'm pretty sure the Cat Stevens thing was a mistake. I remember hearing that he had the same muslim name as someone who was an alleged terrorist, or something of that sort, but I may be totally off there.
What sickens me about the so many people here in the States complaining about Muslim fundamentalism is that a lot of the ones who say shit about Muslims happen to be "Christian" fundamentalists. It gets on my nerves that these idiots make up all this shit on issues like abortion, homosexuality, and use of birth control when there's not one single part of the Bible where these issues are addressed, but of course they brand them as "Christian causes" even though a lot of them didn't even exist during the times of Jesuschrist.
John Q. Christian isn't blowing up subway trains, flying jetliners into the World Trade Center, and cutting off people's heads on the orders of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell either. Violence committed by Christian fundamentalists is few and far between and always condemned by the vast majority of the mainstream of both fundamentalist and mainline Christian leaders. You object to Christian fundamentalists furthering their views via the political process. We should be so lucky as to have the worst act of these barbarous Islamist fanatics be trying to pressure lawmakers to pass legislation in their favor or lobbying for a Supreme Court justice who slanted their way. There is a universe of difference between the two groups, what they want, and the tactics they're willing to use to achieve their goals. Christian fundamentalists may not be the most pleasant people to have around, but they're not going to chop your head off, blow you up, or turn your female relatives into chattle. If you don't perceive an enormous difference between the two groups, you really need to open your eyes. Its like the difference between throwing a bullet and shooting it. No comparison. Christian fundamentalists make you angry and annoyed. Muslim fundamentalists make you dead or maimed.
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I resent your success. I hate you and your kind. So I bomb you
By Roger Scruton
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1072-1686512,00.html
APOLOGISTS for terrorism (and they are not in short supply) argue that it is a weapon used by people who despair of achieving their goals in any other way. It is a cry from the depths by those deprived of a voice in the political process. The terrorist is not an aggressor but a victim, and we must disarm him not by violence but by addressing the grievance that motivates his deeds. This argument has been used to excuse Palestinian suicide bombers, IRA kneecappers, Red Brigade kidnappers, and even the mass murderers of September 11. Its main effect is to blame the victim and excuse the crime.
If you look at the actual condition of terrorists down the ages, however, you will soon discover that the excuse does not match the reality. Some terrorists have been poor and some have been victims of injustice. But those are the exceptions. The Jacobins, who unleashed the original Terror, were for the most part privileged members of the rising elite. The Russian anarchists of the 19th century were no worse off from the point of view of material and social privileges than you or me, and with grievances that were more the work of the imagination than the result of either observing or sympathising with the ordinary people of Russia. There is no evidence that Osama bin Laden’s entourage is any different, and even the IRA, which purports to represent the “oppressed” Catholics of Ulster, is very far from recruiting from those whose oppressed condition it loudly advertises. As for the Islamist terrorists who have targeted our cities, they tend to be well educated, specialists in medicine, engineering or computer science, people who might have helped to provide the Middle East with the stable middle class that it so badly needs, but instead have chosen another and faster route to glory.
It seems to me that we will be nearer to understanding terrorism if, instead of looking at what terrorist
Ray, that's such a fantastic post, full of great points (glad to see you here again!). But you're posting in the wrong forum. You're over the heads of 95% of the people here.
Great post Ray ... even though I only understood every 3rd word ... LOL
Oh for the day when all religion is banned...
What sickens me about the so many people here in the States complaining about Muslim fundamentalism is that a lot of the ones who say shit about Muslims happen to be "Christian" fundamentalists. It gets on my nerves that these idiots make up all this shit on issues like abortion, homosexuality, and use of birth control when there's not one single part of the Bible where these issues are addressed, but of course they brand them as "Christian causes" even though a lot of them didn't even exist during the times of Jesuschrist.
It's funny how you clearly have as much of a bias against Christian fundamentalists as you do Muslim fundamentalists. They don't "make up all this shit" on such issues, rather their personal moral beliefs lead them to such conclusions. You seem to think that these people just read the Bible in order to create a political platform, whereas they use their own moral beliefs, which, by the way, I believe everyone is entitled to. I suppose you do not feel that way?
But also, you claim that the people who "say shit about Muslims" happen to be Christian fundamentalists. Well, already in this thread we have encountered many occurences of "shit" being said about Muslims, and not by Christian fundamentalists. See, what you are doing, is you are using every available opportunity to condemn these Christian fundamentalists, when they really play a very minimal role in this argument.
I hope you can learn to see beyond your biases before you try to extricate others of theirs.
all religious extremists are bonkers and dangerous no matter what religion they are.
look at the beatle burning bonfires of 1966.
the ku klux klan threatening to kill the beatles.
they claimed to be angry by John Lennon saying the beatles were more popular than jesus.
ku klux klan christians? do me a favour
they were / are racist, intolerrant, thick as shit scum
besides firstly john lennon was correct in what he said
secondly in britain most people agreed with Lennon.
thirdly it was the mad psycho christian extremists in the bible belt of the usa who kicked up a fuss over it
you cannot rationalise with an extremist sadly
my favourite lennon line was 'if i'd said television was more popular than jesus, or motor cars, i would have got away with it'
any mad extremists arguing that television ISNT more popular than jesus?
Dont forget the mob who were gonna kill Ringo Starr just because they thought he was Jewish (he isnt by the way)
ah yes. wasn't it in canada? and the reason they thought he was jewish was due to the size of his hooter.
What sickens me about the so many people here in the States complaining about Muslim fundamentalism is that a lot of the ones who say shit about Muslims happen to be "Christian" fundamentalists. It gets on my nerves that these idiots make up all this shit on issues like abortion, homosexuality, and use of birth control when there's not one single part of the Bible where these issues are addressed, but of course they brand them as "Christian causes" even though a lot of them didn't even exist during the times of Jesuschrist.
surely it is sensible to dislike one set of fundamentalists as much as another. after all, all very religious people are slightly insane. otherwise they wouldn't spend their lives devoted to something that so obviously doesn't exist.
the other thing about very religious people that is annoying is their smugness.
It's funny how you clearly have as much of a bias against Christian fundamentalists as you do Muslim fundamentalists. They don't "make up all this shit" on such issues, rather their personal moral beliefs lead them to such conclusions. You seem to think that these people just read the Bible in order to create a political platform, whereas they use their own moral beliefs, which, by the way, I believe everyone is entitled to. I suppose you do not feel that way?
But also, you claim that the people who "say shit about Muslims" happen to be Christian fundamentalists. Well, already in this thread we have encountered many occurences of "shit" being said about Muslims, and not by Christian fundamentalists. See, what you are doing, is you are using every available opportunity to condemn these Christian fundamentalists, when they really play a very minimal role in this argument.
I hope you can learn to see beyond your biases before you try to extricate others of theirs.
What sickens me about the so many people here in the States complaining about Muslim fundamentalism is that a lot of the ones who say shit about Muslims happen to be "Christian" fundamentalists. It gets on my nerves that these idiots make up all this shit on issues like abortion, homosexuality, and use of birth control when there's not one single part of the Bible where these issues are addressed, but of course they brand them as "Christian causes" even though a lot of them didn't even exist during the times of Jesuschrist.
surely it is sensible to dislike one set of fundamentalists as much as another. after all, all very religious people are slightly insane. otherwise they wouldn't spend their lives devoted to something that so obviously doesn't exist.
the other thing about very religious people that is annoying is their smugness.
i should n;t have included that much of the previous quote
I think th epoint is that the Christian fundamentalists who want to make world the way exactly they believe it should be (no matter which way) are the same kind of shit as Muslim fundamentalists. As simple- it's not a certain faith that is the problem. It's when you start killing (hurting, stealing etc) in the name of any god- that's the thing. And christianity isn't much "cleaner" in its history than Islam IMO... Live and let live. You believe in sth- great. Let others find their own way... But no- we've got the great message, we need to enforce it on you. Christians, Catholics, Muslim, whatever- it's all the same... And what's really fuuny is the fact taht all religions are based on love... Ironic, isn't it?
What sickens me about the so many people here in the States complaining about Muslim fundamentalism is that a lot of the ones who say shit about Muslims happen to be "Christian" fundamentalists. It gets on my nerves that these idiots make up all this shit on issues like abortion, homosexuality, and use of birth control when there's not one single part of the Bible where these issues are addressed, but of course they brand them as "Christian causes" even though a lot of them didn't even exist during the times of Jesuschrist.
It's funny how you clearly have as much of a bias against Christian fundamentalists as you do Muslim fundamentalists. They don't "make up all this shit" on such issues, rather their personal moral beliefs lead them to such conclusions. You seem to think that these people just read the Bible in order to create a political platform, whereas they use their own moral beliefs, which, by the way, I believe everyone is entitled to. I suppose you do not feel that way?
But also, you claim that the people who "say shit about Muslims" happen to be Christian fundamentalists. Well, already in this thread we have encountered many occurences of "shit" being said about Muslims, and not by Christian fundamentalists. See, what you are doing, is you are using every available opportunity to condemn these Christian fundamentalists, when they really play a very minimal role in this argument.
I hope you can learn to see beyond your biases before you try to extricate others of theirs.
I was never making some kind of generalization by saying that only christians or christian fundamentalists are the only ones who spread hatred against Muslim by putting this TERRORIST label on them. In fact, I know most TRUE christian are against the war in Iraq, or to some extent have doubts about it being the right thing to do.
Btw, the fact that so many so called "christians" bring all these issues such as abortion, homosexuality, euthanasia, or terrorism, is not just a matter of PERSONAL OPINION, because they're indeed branding them as CHRISTIAN. How many times have we heard the GOD IS ON OUR SIDE comment when it comes to refering to the war on terrorism. Has God actually come up to these people to tell them that he's on our side. Why do these people think that violent retaliation is correct when Jesus stood against violence or hatred above anything else??
surely it is sensible to dislike one set of fundamentalists as much as another. after all, all very religious people are slightly insane. otherwise they wouldn't spend their lives devoted to something that so obviously doesn't exist.
the other thing about very religious people that is annoying is their smugness.
i should n;t have included that much of the previous quote
Surely, you can't be serious. And I'm quite sure, or at least hoping, that this post was only a result of frustration at the topic at hand. It happens to everyone. That's why we have these mosques vandalized. People acting without thinking it through. People frustrated by their anger which blinds them. I could really make you regret saying that, but I understand why you said it...you call them smug, but you're not acting much differently. I'll just try to explain things a little.
You don't have to be a fundamentalist or very religious in order to believe in this thing which so "obviously doesn't exist." So basically, you are calling every single person of faith slightly insane. Let me assure you, that within a reasonable degree of psychological certainty, these people are not insane in any way. Their minds function just as well as yours or mine. Please, you are clearly stereotyping.
Listen, you seem to enjoy logic, so how about this: if devoutly following a religion is what makes certain people's lives easier or happier, then why should you ridicule them for that? Most of even the fundamentalists are good people with very strict morals. When their morals do not perfectly align with society's, you take offense. That is understandable, but in doing so you tend to envelop all of them under this umbrella which obfuscates your judgement.
Please, go ahead. Hate people who kill people to get their point across. Hate people who threaten people to get their point across. But don't hate people who vote to get their point across.
What sickens me about the so many people here in the States complaining about Muslim fundamentalism is that a lot of the ones who say shit about Muslims happen to be "Christian" fundamentalists. It gets on my nerves that these idiots make up all this shit on issues like abortion, homosexuality, and use of birth control when there's not one single part of the Bible where these issues are addressed, but of course they brand them as "Christian causes" even though a lot of them didn't even exist during the times of Jesuschrist.
It's funny how you clearly have as much of a bias against Christian fundamentalists as you do Muslim fundamentalists. They don't "make up all this shit" on such issues, rather their personal moral beliefs lead them to such conclusions. You seem to think that these people just read the Bible in order to create a political platform, whereas they use their own moral beliefs, which, by the way, I believe everyone is entitled to. I suppose you do not feel that way?
But also, you claim that the people who "say shit about Muslims" happen to be Christian fundamentalists. Well, already in this thread we have encountered many occurences of "shit" being said about Muslims, and not by Christian fundamentalists. See, what you are doing, is you are using every available opportunity to condemn these Christian fundamentalists, when they really play a very minimal role in this argument.
I hope you can learn to see beyond your biases before you try to extricate others of theirs.
I was never making some kind of generalization by saying that only christians or christian fundamentalists are the only ones who spread hatred against Muslim by putting this TERRORIST label on them. In fact, I know most TRUE christian are against the war in Iraq, or to some extent have doubts about it being the right thing to do.
Btw, the fact that so many so called "christians" bring all these issues such as abortion, homosexuality, euthanasia, or terrorism, is not just a matter of PERSONAL OPINION, because they're indeed branding them as CHRISTIAN. How many times have we heard the GOD IS ON OUR SIDE comment when it comes to refering to the war on terrorism. Has God actually come up to these people to tell them that he's on our side. Why do these people think that violent retaliation is correct when Jesus stood against violence or hatred above anything else??
You are correct. You weren't making a generalization, really. You were just directing your insults at a particular group of people. You didn't say they were the only ones, you just conveniently placed your crosshairs over this particular group.
The fact that you are biased against fundamental Christians can be seen as clearly as the light of day. I'm not going to judge you for that, it is perfectly clear why you feel that way. You were simply angry at the time of the post - riled up. You weren't thinking, you were distracted, and your subtle prejudices showed through. It happens to all of us. Don't feel ashamed, just acknowledge it and move on.
And these things are a matter of personal opinion. You have to think of it psychologically, instead of what you read in the newspapers. If someone doesn't like abortion, they will then seek Christian references to back them up, to feel more secure about their decision. They do not just follow their religions and blindly apply every single tenet that it holds. There are fundamentalists of every range of intelligence, and most of them can, in fact, think for themselves. They just tend to agree more with what was set forth in their religion, or feel more security in using their religion to promote their beliefs.
I have never heard of a scenario in which a person thought, "I really don't think there'
Music Man... I have to say, I really enjoy reading your posts. By any chance, are you interested in studying psychology? Your knowledge, understanding of, and empathy for people, especially those different from you, is outstanding. We need more people like you in this world.
...but this is the only place where I disagree with you. So you're trying to say that they come up with their beliefs (however bigoted or not) without the help of their bible? Other than their pastor who reads that same bible and gives "lessons" based on such writings, that is the primary source of their morals. Fundamentalists believe that the law is in the bible, and most of these people will condemn others who do not agree, saying they are "lost", and need to find the way. Many may be diplomatic and not say such a thing outright, but that is the belief of a fundamentalist. I have met many people like this, and they are scary. I am not being judgemental... I am stating the truth. If they weren't so strict about their beliefs, they wouldn't be fundamentalists. They would have mainline protestant beliefs and practices.
On a slight tangent: Technically speaking, a fundamentalist cannot take a loan for a house if they take Levitical law to be verbatim, so if we go by the true definition of fundamentalist as being one who believes in and follows this collection of writings word for word, then there probably aren't any "true" fundamentalists in the world. But that's another discussion altogether.
That ancient and celebrated piece of literature contains up to 2500-year-old laws and ideas, yet fundamentalists think they should stand for all times. The majority of the theology and ideas of Christian fundamentalists are anachronistic, anti-intellectual, and just plain wrong, by the standards of the growing world today. Such exercise of bigotry and intolerance in the name of religion is the reason why more people have been killed in the name of God than any other reason. Religious folk will try to throw numbers around to prove otherwise, but this is a fact.
I'll stand up for Jingles here. Never did he say that Christian fundamentalists are the only type of people who "say shit" about muslims. But they are surely make up large percentage of such bigots who claim that every religion other than theirs is the wrong path to be on.
But in most cases, they truly believe that it is an act of "love" to try to destroy relativism one step at a time by converting people to their religion.
John 12:47 reads: "And if any man hears my words, and does not believe, I will not judge him". The (supposed) words of Jesus. Most scholars believe these not to be authentic words of Jesus, but regardless of their authenticity, this is a depiction of Jesus being the exact opposite of judgemental. Yet there are millions of people who worship/follow this per
They don't "make up all this shit" on such issues, rather their personal moral beliefs lead them to such conclusions. You seem to think that these people just read the Bible in order to create a political platform, whereas they use their own moral beliefs
...but this is the only place where I disagree with you. So you're trying to say that they come up with their beliefs (however bigoted or not) without the help of their bible? Other than their pastor who reads that same bible and gives "lessons" based on such writings, that is the primary source of their morals. Fundamentalists believe that the law is in the bible, and most of these people will condemn others who do not agree, saying they are "lost", and need to find the way. Many may be diplomatic and not say such a thing outright, but that is the belief of a fundamentalist. I have met many people like this, and they are scary. I am not being judgemental... I am stating the truth. If they weren't so strict about their beliefs, they wouldn't be fundamentalists. They would have mainline protestant beliefs and practices.
On a slight tangent: Technically speaking, a fundamentalist cannot take a loan for a house if they take Levitical law to be verbatim, so if we go by the true definition of fundamentalist as being one who believes in and follows this collection of writings word for word, then there probably aren't any "true" fundamentalists in the world. But that's another discussion altogether.
That ancient and celebrated piece of literature contains up to 2500-year-old laws and ideas, yet fundamentalists think they should stand for all times. The majority of the theology and ideas of Christian fundamentalists are anachronistic, anti-intellectual, and just plain wrong, by the standards of the growing world today. Such exercise of bigotry and intolerance in the name of religion is the reason why more people have been killed in the name of God than any other reason. Religious folk will try to throw numbers around to prove otherwise, but this is a fact.
But also, you claim that the people who "say shit about Muslims" happen to be Christian fundamentalists. Well, already in this thread we have encountered many occurences of "shit" being said about Muslims, and not by Christian fundamentalists. See, what you are doing, is you are using every available opportunity to condemn these Christian fundamentalists, when they really play a very minimal role in this argument.
I'll stand up for Jingles here. Never did he say that Christian fundamentalists are the only type of people who "say shit" about muslims. But they are surely make up large percentage of such bigots who claim that every religion other than theirs is the wrong path to be on.
But no- we've got the great message, we need to enforce it on you. Christians, Catholics, Muslim, whatever- it's all the same... And what's really fuuny is the fact taht all religions are based on love... Ironic, isn't it?
But in most cases, they truly believe that it is an act of "love" to try to destroy relativism one step at a time by converting people to their religion.
John 12:47 reads: "And if any man hears my words, and does not believe, I will not judge him". The (supposed) words of Jesus. Most scholars believe these not to be authentic words of Jesus, but regardless of their authenticity, this is a depiction of Jesus being the exact opposite of judgemental. Yet there are millions of people who worship/follow this per