If war on terror is wrong what should we do?

dragonzflame wrote:

So the question we need to ask is, are the people who would vandalise mosques as payback really any better than the bombers?

That's a pretty easy question to answer, and the answer is "yes, a thousandfold." I'm not saying that their actions were in any way acceptable, I'm just saying that 'bombing' and 'vandalization' are not exactly right next to each other on the "bad things to do" scale.

No, but aren't they still stooping to a similar level? The bombings were designed to cause hurt and misery to people, just as vandalising mosques is. Dishonouring one's religious faith and desecrating their place of worship is one of the most (read: not THE most) cruel things one human can do to another.
I'm not trying to weigh the acts themselves - of course killing people is the lowest of the low - but both groups are still trying to cause massive hurt to people for perceived misdemeanours outside their control. While the acts themselves may not have as much impact on as many lives as the other, I still maintain that the ignorant, spiteful people who would actually choose to take either course of action are as bad as each other and really need to take a long, hard look at themselves.

HI HITMAN!!!
Do you really think my posts are short? I was afraid they were too long!

Anyway, I disagree on some pointts you made :-(.
First of all, I don't agree that we should give up our comforts to avoid terrorism or to help foreign countries. It is not by giving up our wealth, our mp3 players etc. that we can help anyone. I believe in equality, but not in the "all equally poor" motto of the Communists, but in the "all rich" motto!
So if my life is easier by having an mp3 player, a cell phone, a TV...I don't see why I should feel guilty for it.

The truth is that it's not by giving money to these countries that they will be helped. You certainly know that often Western commodities sent to these countries are stopped at the border because criminals won't let the goods in. Also erasing public debt, which sounds like a wonderful thing to do, will not help the poor people, but will only help the brutal leaders of those nations to become even richer at the expense of their people.

We have our flaws, of course. But I think the concept of being wealthy is being distorted in the West, and especially in Italy, where being rich is sometimes equated to being a thief. I'm not poor, and I'm happy about that. I'm not ashamed to say that my parents were able to put aside some money thanks to their hard work. They too rose from poverty, as everybody in Italy did after world war II. In Italy after the war our parents didn't sit there and cry. And they didn't send terrorists to the richer countries in the 1950ths either! We took some financial help (mind you, especially from the United States which so many criticize!)and made the most of it.

If we must take some responsibility for the terrible situation of world politics today, so must the countries which generate terrorists. And I think that if our responsibility is = 1, theirs is at least 100.

You can't always blame it on the others. You can't only expect help from others. that is what a beggard does. I will never feel ashamed because I was able to make my life easier. So shouldn't you. Enjoy your mp3 player! It would do no good to the poor if you throw it away. They don't need charity. They need to learn how to cope for themselves. But the will to learn should be theirs.

Well, sorry, this wasn't that short!!! LOL

Ciao bello!

Fairy

Bob The Shrek wrote:

Pressure has to be put on the Islamic clerics to denounce the suicide bombers, that they are not martyrs to the cause (and guaranteed a place in heaven or wherever they go) but ordinary criminals. Until this happens I can't see it ever stopping.

I can't speak for other nations but the UK should deport people like Abu Hamza. He preaches hate against this country and as far as I am concerned that is treason.

Ditto- the whole thing with Abu Hamza is just pathetic. The guy should be either deported or simply in jail. There should be a pressure on Muslims to state clearly that the bombings are just a crime- not a saint war. If someone is saying it's good- deport straight away... As well- we need to know more about Islam. Not the dark side of it (wars, suicide attacks and so on) but the good one. What does the Koran really say? What are they values? Not from extremists, but from normal people just like me and you. I know few Muslim people (few from Turkey, few from Afganistan) and what they're telling me about their faith has nothing to do with what Bin Laden and others are claiming... We should educate ppl and make them understand that it's not the certain religion that is the problem but few idiots and fanatics...
What we DON'T need is "eye for an eye" thing. This way we're gonna have more bombs not only in London, but also in Paris, Rome, Warsaw, Amsterdam, Los Angeles... take your pick...
We cannot negotiate with people like Bin Laden and few others. But we CAN make sure their message and their leadership has less followers. We need to show the good values of the Western civilization- so far we're showing NOTHING about love, compassion... What we're showing is ignorance (what do we know about Islam?) and extreme arogance, claiming that only our values are right, only our way of living is good... Don't we know it from the history? How were we converting Indians in America? How did we show them OUR way of living...? Inquisitions? Crusades? We know the history... Or did we forget it? Don't we fight saint wars as well...? Aren't we sometimes almost as arrogant as Bin Laden? It's so obvious that when you force your views onto someone what you gonna get is a negative reaction. It's only a simple human reaction... But no- we are christians, we live in democracy, everything we do and represent is perfect and everybody else in the world MUST live the same way... I'm not against the Western values- I want to make it clear! But what the Western World is showing CONSTANTLY is extreme arrogance. Mr Bush is the best example of that... There's nothing worse than Christian extremist- as dangerous as Muslim one... Is anyone surprised that so many nations almost hate America...? I'm not. I'm not saying it's right. But IT IS the fact and... I understand it. Great Britain? Recently almost as arrogant...
Of course we won't change our way of living and convert to Islam! (however- is our way of living that perfect? is capitalism so great? don't think so...). But the same way we cannot force the world to live OUR way. And with all the globalisation, trade and stuff- that's what we do...!!! We defend our way of living by invading the entire world- not only countries and people but also the nature. We'll pay the huge price. Bigger than we think. IMO this race (human race) is doomed- sooner or later. We've got unbeliavable self-destructive instinct. We don't respect anything else (nature, other people). We're arrogant... And this arrogance of the Western economies meets the extremist reaction...
Did that make sense...?

you can't deport people who are British citizens...

Trust me - Muslims are horrified by the bombings.
The clerics in the mosques are condemning acts of terrorism.

I agree with the point that Muslims should be seen to be condemning all acts of terrorism. But if you read the local press in cities with a substantial Muslim population - they are doing just that.

Agneepath! wrote:

you can't deport people who are British citizens...

Jail than... If you're terrorist or sympathise with them- surely there's away of dealing with it... (am not a lawyer though...)

Agneepath! wrote:

Trust me - Muslims are horrified by the bombings.
The clerics in the mosques are condemning acts of terrorism.

I agree with the point that Muslims should be seen to be condemning all acts of terrorism. But if you read the local press in cities with a substantial Muslim population - they are doing just that.

But that should be highlighted!!! No- the tabloids are more interested in showing the extremists, in presenting sensational and horryfing stories rather than dull things like a Muslim priest condemning a bombing... So there's a responsibility there! And on emore thing- who the fuck reads this "Sun" / "Daily Mirror" etc crap anyway? British public... There you go- we WANT this stuff, we DON'T want to know the good stuff, we wanna read about scandals, terror, terrible things...

As you say- in local press thay maybe write about that. But it's not enough. We should make sure it's really loud- the Muslims saying loud and clear that it's nothing but sick crime. What we hear loud and clear are only the words of extremists... You say they're doing just that in the areas witha substantial Muslim population (showing Muslims condemning terrorism)- I say they should do it in the areas where there are no Muslims!!! They know themselves that they don't agree with extremist. It's the British, Polish, American, Italain (whatever) ppl who don't know this!

Fenderek,
I really can't see why we should be labeled arrogant. Nobody wants them to live like we live. All we want is for them to let us be. If they attack us, we must react. Not as a form of retaliation as in the eye to eye principle, but as a way to prevent more attacks.

I totally agree with you that the Islamic world should be more explicit in their condemnation of terrorism. I know they condemn it. My ex boyfriend is Muslim and I know he despises these extremists just like we do. But I never see public demonstrations of Muslims led by their Imams on the streets of our nations, which thank God are free and allow you to demonstrate...
Globalization? I think that without globalization, the poor countries would be much much poorer. And again, nobody is forcing anyone to take part in globalization. The fact is, without it they would be much worse off.

I think it's our too critical view of ourselves which is working against us. I don't care if we were evil in the past. Christianity has apologized already. Right now we are the victims.
BTW I'm not Christian. I don't belong to any religion.

Fairy wrote:

Fenderek,
I really can't see why we should be labeled arrogant. Nobody wants them to live like we live.

The way we treat this planet- isn't this arrogance? Beautiful land (planet) is being turned into a shithole (pardon my French). And the ppl and countries? The trade laws actually dictate the way of living, the policy of all the countries. Rich countries are pretty much deciding everything- the way the whole thing evolves. The capitalism is unavoidable- if you decide to live outside US hegemony- pretty much you decide to live outside Western world in general. And let's face it- western companies aren't going to poor countries to help them- they go there because they can use the fact taht those countries are poor, the ppl who are going to work there are going to be the cheap workforce, there are very often no unions, as an owner you can do almost anything you want. So we keep robbing the rest of the world as much as we can. Live 8 was a beautiful thing, G8 decission made a promise but let's face it- we were (are?) robbing the world of its resources and by economy we enforce certain way of living as well. Of course there are positives. But there's a lot of bad. And almost every second word of certain Mr Bush shows arrogance. By our leaders we're sending very intimidatimg message to the rest of the world- our values are the only ones to follow, that's the only way forward, etc. And EVEN if it's true- that's not the way to do it. I'm not labeling you or me or anyone in particular as arrogant- but Western civilization has the arrogant flavour.

Saying taht I notce many other things. Of course the fault is on both sides! It's pretty much the same with racism. I's not right to talk about this problem in UK, but in my view- they have a huge problem in here! I live in a very black area (Camberwell) and am very often intimidated for being white. And I'm sure that both sides are to blame- white for maaany years of terrible treament, but also black- for being extremely proud and not willing to let go... And we once again meet the same thing "eye for an eye". That's where the problem lies. UNFORTUNATELY- I don't believe mankind is able to solve it. We're to proud and too arrogant. I was saying about west being arrogant. But I forgot to mention the fact that it's the same on the other side. Pride and arrogance. And because of taht- I doubt we'll ever be able to sit down and just talk... We'll want to pay back- at some point we'll even forget who really started it...

Bush is an extremist, without a doubt. Just look at all the people he has appointed for ofiice, they're all extremists. Now he wants a man who has publicly mentioned despising the United Nations and labelling them as a completely useless institution, as U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS!

Fairy wrote:

I think it's our too critical view of ourselves which is working against us.

I disagree. Maybe me, you, hundreds of ppl around the world- maybe? But in general- IMO we've got as many fundamentalists in between us (UK, Poland, Italy) as in Iraq or Afghanistan... Just look at the whole fasist movement in Italy (what's wrong with certain Lazio fans...?) Or the christian extremists in southern USA... Or Catholic extremists in Poland (the guy who's fav to be elected for president is one of the biggest assholes I've ever heard and seen). Those ppl do you think are critical about our way of living? And who is chosing them to run our countries or at least- why do we make their voices so loud... Just because they talk bollocks and it's something that will sell?

Fairy wrote:

I don't care if we were evil in the past. Christianity has apologized already. Right now we are the victims.

Agreed- we are victims. But... it's not only about us being evil in the past... We're not angels right now, sorry, I don't believe that. In my view the capitalism can be really brutal and cynical... AND I'm sure we're unable to talk. Exactly the same way the other side isn't... I don't think we're in general only an innocent victims. The ppl who died in London- yes! The ppl who died on 9/11- yes! Those were really innocent victims. But... same way many ppl died in Iraq or Afghanistan- they didn't belong to Al Quaida (or whatever's the spelling), they weren't terrorists... Or in Vietnam before... I'm, not trying to say taht we're only to blame! OF COURSE NOT!!! But we too often refuse to take the responsibility! And if you look at the latest history of USA (let's say last 50 years)- are you surprised that this country is being widely hated? I'm not... And America is too big and too proud to admit any mistakes...

One more thing in the nutshell- I wasn't albeling only a Western world witha word arrogant- I meant the entire humankind. History repeats itself over and over again... We do exactly the same mistakes the same way.

Fenderek wrote:

And if you look at the latest history of USA (let's say last 50 years)- are you surprised that this country is being widely hated? I'm not... And America is too big and too proud to admit any mistakes...

I totally agree with this one. Although I'd put most of the blame not on the U.S. and their citizens, but on American politicians (particularly Republicans).
When has the U.S. government officially apologized for the 58,000 American soldiers who were lost in Vietnam and who died for NOTHING? If they are so damn arrogant as to not apologize to their own people, much less to the rest of the world.

What a shame that some folks on this planet have their heads so far up their asses.......

You know who you are.

How many barrels of Oil has the US taken out of Iraq, exactly? Can you give us an accurate count, Alex?

Yes, that would be not the first drop.......

Fenderek,
I agree with you on many things, about the arrogance and pride on all sides that repeats itself again and again, and about the difficulty in solving it. But I would like you to tell me now what you suggest we do, if capitalism is so bad as you say.
Like I said in another post, I'm not going to let anyone make me feel ashamed just because I'm not poor. This is the theory behind Communism, which wants everybody to be poor, so that then the leaders can have total control.

Before the war in Afghanistan, in this country the internet was forbitten, along with any radio or TV stations that were not run by the government. Women couldn't leave their homes alone, and couldn't work. Women couldn't be seen by male doctors, and women were forbidden to study, so basically women were left without medical care. Certainly you know all this. Now, all this has totally changed. If this means forcing our values upon others, well, then be it!

Western companies don't go there to do charity. Nobody says Western people are saints. They follow their own interests. But until we don't understand that charity is the least these countries need, we will never go anywhere, and we won't understand that capitalism is not the enemy of the third world. The third world has its enemy within itself.

Fairy- I also think I actually agree with you a lot. I said many abd things about capitalism, but... It's like democracy- everybody knows it's not a perfect system, but no-one can think of a better one...
THERE'S NO SHAME IN BEING RICH!!! Not at all! No-one should feel guilty if earned money or inherited them from their parents or whatever. Unless stolen (REALLY STOLEN)- that's fine! I'm definitelly not one of those who claim that you should be ashemed of yourmoney because kids in Africa are dying every 3 seconds. Communist view was a nice idea IN THE BEGINING- in fact the perfect communism is pretty much what heaven is about, isn't it? We're all equally RICH. Of course, when it's down to people (our great human race)- it's of course equally poor...

"Before the war in Afghanistan, in this country the internet was forbitten, along with any radio or TV stations that were not run by the government. Women couldn't leave their homes alone, and couldn't work. Women couldn't be seen by male doctors, and women were forbidden to study, so basically women were left without medical care. Certainly you know all this. Now, all this has totally changed. If this means forcing our values upon others, well, then be it!"

I will agree with that, BUT- the attack itself was about what? Revenge... And many people do know that and will remeber. Many people are now free, can use internet and lost their son or their house, because some american pilot bombed the wrong building. I'm sure they're greatful (I must stress one thing- I'm not mocking your view here, just trying to see why ppl there still often hate USA)

Mostly- I agree with your thought that the Third World is an enemy in itself. It is. But we aren't helping them either... And you're right, it's not the charity what they need. But equal treatment would do the trick

I don't know- when writing answers to this thread I just became more and more pesymistic... It's a huge tangle- impossible to sort out as both sides want more and are proud and... Now Africa being poor.. I can actually see it happening either way- Europe being poor and Africa rich... Would it be different? Nope. The actions would be exactly the same. Looking at the history (had to study it a lot) it's all about greed and pride. And nothing changed since the begining of time... Empathy? Empty word... It's also weird how single ppl can see the world in terrible state (and always did), but when in group, as a mass- humankind becomes blind...