These *lunatics* of all religions have forgotten the 11th commandment!
KEEP THY RELIGION TO THYSELF.
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All religous fanatics go against what their religion stands for, so don't blame religion, blame the human race!
spymyshadow, I think your analysis is perfect. That's what I was trying to say too. Most people who went to riot and even got hurt or killed were manipulated. And I agree: I've seen the cartoons and there's nothing making fun of God really...you're right, they just mock the way extremists seem to conceive their religion.
Gosh I've not heard of that Imam who said Italy should become a Muslim country!! Well, I doubt this could ever happen, since we Italians aren't even too much influenced by the Catholic Church though we have the Pope within our borders...But it's this constant intrusions that frightens me. Today it's about not publishing cartoons. Tomorrow we'll take the crosses off our schools' walls. Then what?
I saw a documentary on Italian TV where a Muslim threatened us, without any fear. He just said something like: "We're almost ready. If you're good to us, we'll go and say thank you. If you're mean to us, it will turn against you. So be careful". Then they interviewed the Italian wife of a Muslim who had converted to Islam. She said something like: "In ten years we'll outgrow you. You have 1 child per family in average. We have many more.". And she was giggling as she said that.
By this I don't mean to generalize. I just mean to say Italy is such a democratic country that you can even go on national TV and threaten an entire nation, and nothing will happen to you. If they can do that, can we at least publish some silly cartoons please??????
Gosh I've not heard of that Imam who said Italy should become a Muslim country!! Well, I doubt this could ever happen, since we Italians aren't even too much influenced by the Catholic Church though we have the Pope within our borders...But it's this constant intrusions that frightens me. Today it's about not publishing cartoons. Tomorrow we'll take the crosses off our schools' walls. Then what?
I saw a documentary on Italian TV where a Muslim threatened us, without any fear. He just said something like: "We're almost ready. If you're good to us, we'll go and say thank you. If you're mean to us, it will turn against you. So be careful". Then they interviewed the Italian wife of a Muslim who had converted to Islam. She said something like: "In ten years we'll outgrow you. You have 1 child per family in average. We have many more.". And she was giggling as she said that.
By this I don't mean to generalize. I just mean to say Italy is such a democratic country that you can even go on national TV and threaten an entire nation, and nothing will happen to you. If they can do that, can we at least publish some silly cartoons please??????
You assume that every Buddhist recognized they were being used for political purposes.
Also, that does not explain why later Japanese daimyo feared armed Buddhist monks.
Also, that does not explain why later Japanese daimyo feared armed Buddhist monks.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color = "crimson">ThomasQuinn wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Zeni wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color = "crimson">ThomasQuinn wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Where did BudDhism become fanatic?[/QUOTE]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamakura_period
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_China#Buddhism_gains_political_traction_in_the_north
One could make a case for either of those periods, for starters.[/QUOTE]
In both cases that concerns political USEAGE of Buddhism, not Buddhism itself.[/QUOTE]
Caspie: the same thing happens to CHristianity, Islamism, Judaism, etc.
Those damn crusades and jihads who are more political, but use religion as a justifications.
Where did BudDhism become fanatic?[/QUOTE]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamakura_period
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_China#Buddhism_gains_political_traction_in_the_north
One could make a case for either of those periods, for starters.[/QUOTE]
In both cases that concerns political USEAGE of Buddhism, not Buddhism itself.[/QUOTE]
Caspie: the same thing happens to CHristianity, Islamism, Judaism, etc.
Those damn crusades and jihads who are more political, but use religion as a justifications.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color = "crimson">ThomasQuinn wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Armed Buddhist monks were about as abundant as pacifist Republicans: exceptions.[/QUOTE]
Can't fanaticism be labeled an "exception"? Or are all Muslims, Christians, non-Buddhists, etc fanatics?
Oh, and armed Buddhist monks were not as rare as you believe:
http://www.aasianst.org/absts/1998abst/japan/j177.htm
A whole scholarly panel devoted to the subject.
And more evidence: Oda Nobunaga and the Warrior-Monks at Mt. Hiei
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tendai
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobunaga
Finally, you never answered my first point. You assume that every Buddhist recognized they were being used for political purposes.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=#CC0066>Sonia Doris</font> wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Caspie: the same thing happens to CHristianity, Islamism, Judaism, etc.
Those damn crusades and jihads who are more political, but use religion as a justifications.[/QUOTE]
Yep, I agree with Sonia.
Armed Buddhist monks were about as abundant as pacifist Republicans: exceptions.[/QUOTE]
Can't fanaticism be labeled an "exception"? Or are all Muslims, Christians, non-Buddhists, etc fanatics?
Oh, and armed Buddhist monks were not as rare as you believe:
http://www.aasianst.org/absts/1998abst/japan/j177.htm
A whole scholarly panel devoted to the subject.
And more evidence: Oda Nobunaga and the Warrior-Monks at Mt. Hiei
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tendai
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobunaga
Finally, you never answered my first point. You assume that every Buddhist recognized they were being used for political purposes.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=#CC0066>Sonia Doris</font> wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Caspie: the same thing happens to CHristianity, Islamism, Judaism, etc.
Those damn crusades and jihads who are more political, but use religion as a justifications.[/QUOTE]
Yep, I agree with Sonia.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]spymyshadow wrote: [/QUOTENAME]What it seemes to be the main reason of muslims being hurt is our (western) supposed making fun of Allah. But the real meaning of those pictures for me is not ridiculing a god but the use some people make of god. Muslims, or more simply some of them, expect to justify their wars against the west claiming this is Allah's will.[/QUOTE]
Right, that is looking at it from OUR point of view. That is the mistake we in the west make. We use our western ways of thinking to speak for others who do not see the world as we do. But this isn't completely an east-west thing. Many muslims in the west are equally upset about this. Just because they aren't the ones burning down Danish embassies doesn't mean they're less angry.
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/02/09/cartoons-annan060209.html
Kofi Annan is right on the money.
Islam is not going anywhere, so in our wisdom, we need to realize how others may react when we tread on their ground and their freedom of belief. The question is not whether or not certain methods of retaliation are right or wrong. The question is, how well do we understand our differences from people with worldviews different from ours? What is it going to take? The US is in Iraq right now, imposing their ideas of democracy on people who do not know what democracy is, nor do they want it imposed on them. They have clearly stated in polls that they are in worse condition now than they were before the US invaded their country. When will we in the west learn that everyone doesn't think and see things the way we do? How far will we go? What's next?
Right, that is looking at it from OUR point of view. That is the mistake we in the west make. We use our western ways of thinking to speak for others who do not see the world as we do. But this isn't completely an east-west thing. Many muslims in the west are equally upset about this. Just because they aren't the ones burning down Danish embassies doesn't mean they're less angry.
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/02/09/cartoons-annan060209.html
Kofi Annan is right on the money.
Islam is not going anywhere, so in our wisdom, we need to realize how others may react when we tread on their ground and their freedom of belief. The question is not whether or not certain methods of retaliation are right or wrong. The question is, how well do we understand our differences from people with worldviews different from ours? What is it going to take? The US is in Iraq right now, imposing their ideas of democracy on people who do not know what democracy is, nor do they want it imposed on them. They have clearly stated in polls that they are in worse condition now than they were before the US invaded their country. When will we in the west learn that everyone doesn't think and see things the way we do? How far will we go? What's next?
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE]
When will we in the west learn that everyone doesn't think and see things the way we do? How far will we go? What's next?
[/QUOTE]
Em em...maybe when they stop hijacking our planes and dropping them on our buildings, or maybe when they stop getting on busses carrying bombs and killing civilians....When they stop threatening us on TV...or when they stop using their own children as human shields.........maybe that's what it would take for the West to stop interfering.
When will we in the west learn that everyone doesn't think and see things the way we do? How far will we go? What's next?
[/QUOTE]
Em em...maybe when they stop hijacking our planes and dropping them on our buildings, or maybe when they stop getting on busses carrying bombs and killing civilians....When they stop threatening us on TV...or when they stop using their own children as human shields.........maybe that's what it would take for the West to stop interfering.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE]
When will we in the west learn that everyone doesn't think and see things the way we do? How far will we go? What's next?
[/QUOTE]
Em em...maybe when they stop hijacking our planes and dropping them on our buildings, or maybe when they stop getting on busses carrying bombs and killing civilians....When they stop threatening us on TV...or when they stop using their own children as human shields.........maybe that's what it would take for the West to stop interfering.
When will we in the west learn that everyone doesn't think and see things the way we do? How far will we go? What's next?
[/QUOTE]
Em em...maybe when they stop hijacking our planes and dropping them on our buildings, or maybe when they stop getting on busses carrying bombs and killing civilians....When they stop threatening us on TV...or when they stop using their own children as human shields.........maybe that's what it would take for the West to stop interfering.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Fairy wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Em em...maybe when they stop hijacking our planes and dropping them on our buildings, or maybe when they stop getting on busses carrying bombs and killing civilians....When they stop threatening us on TV...or when they stop using their own children as human shields.........maybe that's what it would take for the West to stop interfering.
[/QUOTE]
You're missing the point. I was referring to things we can actually prevent. Yes, we cannot prevent someone from getting onto a bus carrying a bomb, but we CAN prevent someone retaliating to a comic - by not publishing the comic! While some things are not in our hands, some definitely are.
Em em...maybe when they stop hijacking our planes and dropping them on our buildings, or maybe when they stop getting on busses carrying bombs and killing civilians....When they stop threatening us on TV...or when they stop using their own children as human shields.........maybe that's what it would take for the West to stop interfering.
[/QUOTE]
You're missing the point. I was referring to things we can actually prevent. Yes, we cannot prevent someone from getting onto a bus carrying a bomb, but we CAN prevent someone retaliating to a comic - by not publishing the comic! While some things are not in our hands, some definitely are.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Fairy wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Em em...maybe when they stop hijacking our planes and dropping them on our buildings, or maybe when they stop getting on busses carrying bombs and killing civilians....When they stop threatening us on TV...or when they stop using their own children as human shields.........maybe that's what it would take for the West to stop interfering.
[/QUOTE]
You're missing the point. I was referring to things we can actually prevent. Yes, we cannot prevent someone from getting onto a bus carrying a bomb, but we CAN prevent someone retaliating to a comic - by not publishing the comic! While some things are not in our hands, some definitely are.
[/QUOTE]
So if I cut off someone in my car, and they give me the finger, I am perfectly justified to run them of the road because they offended me and were not sensitive to my needs? Of course not. People, including children and radical Muslims, need to be able to control themselves. Why should the radical muslims be allowed to censor the west?
Iran is concidering having their meida make satirical cartoons about the holocaust. I think that is an excellent idea, but does not go far enough. They should also do more cartoons about the decadent west. I doubt any embassies will get torched as a result though.
Also, Cindy was not the only one booted for wearing an offensive t-shirt. A republican congressman's wife was also kicked out for wearing a "support the war" t-shirt.
Em em...maybe when they stop hijacking our planes and dropping them on our buildings, or maybe when they stop getting on busses carrying bombs and killing civilians....When they stop threatening us on TV...or when they stop using their own children as human shields.........maybe that's what it would take for the West to stop interfering.
[/QUOTE]
You're missing the point. I was referring to things we can actually prevent. Yes, we cannot prevent someone from getting onto a bus carrying a bomb, but we CAN prevent someone retaliating to a comic - by not publishing the comic! While some things are not in our hands, some definitely are.
[/QUOTE]
So if I cut off someone in my car, and they give me the finger, I am perfectly justified to run them of the road because they offended me and were not sensitive to my needs? Of course not. People, including children and radical Muslims, need to be able to control themselves. Why should the radical muslims be allowed to censor the west?
Iran is concidering having their meida make satirical cartoons about the holocaust. I think that is an excellent idea, but does not go far enough. They should also do more cartoons about the decadent west. I doubt any embassies will get torched as a result though.
Also, Cindy was not the only one booted for wearing an offensive t-shirt. A republican congressman's wife was also kicked out for wearing a "support the war" t-shirt.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Fairy wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Em em...maybe when they stop hijacking our planes and dropping them on our buildings, or maybe when they stop getting on busses carrying bombs and killing civilians....When they stop threatening us on TV...or when they stop using their own children as human shields.........maybe that's what it would take for the West to stop interfering.
[/QUOTE]
You're missing the point. I was referring to things we can actually prevent. Yes, we cannot prevent someone from getting onto a bus carrying a bomb, but we CAN prevent someone retaliating to a comic - by not publishing the comic! While some things are not in our hands, some definitely are.
[/QUOTE]
I understand what you mean, and it's very sensible. But I wouldn't want our freedom to be limited just because their "seeing things differently" means that they will kill us if we don't follow their rules. I couldn't care less about cartoons, we can do without them all right. But what will be next? In Italy and elsewhere there were wild protests because Muslims wanted us to take our Christian crosses off our school walls. Then, some are starting to demand that Friday becomes holiday, and not Sunday. This would cause big trouble, since we can't have people of different faiths going on holiday on differend days! LOL.
I don't follow any religion, but I think Italy should not give up its heritage, history and culture. So though I don't go to church I'm against taking the crosses off school walls. We can't let this political correctness erase a people's identity. Will we need to start speaking Arabic and give up Italian? LOL
I agree with what has been already said. Indignation towards those silly harmless cartoons was only the pretext to react violently, in the hope that the West takes other steps in the name of its pride, so that then more attacks and violence on their part are justified.
This is only my 2 sense.
Fairy
Em em...maybe when they stop hijacking our planes and dropping them on our buildings, or maybe when they stop getting on busses carrying bombs and killing civilians....When they stop threatening us on TV...or when they stop using their own children as human shields.........maybe that's what it would take for the West to stop interfering.
[/QUOTE]
You're missing the point. I was referring to things we can actually prevent. Yes, we cannot prevent someone from getting onto a bus carrying a bomb, but we CAN prevent someone retaliating to a comic - by not publishing the comic! While some things are not in our hands, some definitely are.
[/QUOTE]
I understand what you mean, and it's very sensible. But I wouldn't want our freedom to be limited just because their "seeing things differently" means that they will kill us if we don't follow their rules. I couldn't care less about cartoons, we can do without them all right. But what will be next? In Italy and elsewhere there were wild protests because Muslims wanted us to take our Christian crosses off our school walls. Then, some are starting to demand that Friday becomes holiday, and not Sunday. This would cause big trouble, since we can't have people of different faiths going on holiday on differend days! LOL.
I don't follow any religion, but I think Italy should not give up its heritage, history and culture. So though I don't go to church I'm against taking the crosses off school walls. We can't let this political correctness erase a people's identity. Will we need to start speaking Arabic and give up Italian? LOL
I agree with what has been already said. Indignation towards those silly harmless cartoons was only the pretext to react violently, in the hope that the West takes other steps in the name of its pride, so that then more attacks and violence on their part are justified.
This is only my 2 sense.
Fairy
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Rip Van Winkle wrote: [/QUOTENAME]So if I cut off someone in my car, and they give me the finger, I am perfectly justified to run them of the road because they offended me and were not sensitive to my needs? Of course not. People, including children and radical Muslims, need to be able to control themselves. Why should the radical muslims be allowed to censor the west?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Fairy wrote: [/QUOTENAME]I understand what you mean, and it's very sensible. But I wouldn't want our freedom to be limited just because their "seeing things differently" means that they will kill us if we don't follow their rules. I couldn't care less about cartoons, we can do without them all right.[/QUOTE]
I completely agree with both of you. I'm just taking into account the fact that most muslim countries have not separated church and state, and that we have to figure into the equation that they will feel the need to react like they have. I'm not saying we're wrong and they're right. I'm saying that we have to give in, otherwise the violence will continue, unless their religious beliefs become a bit more moderate.
But I don't see that happening any time soon:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/02/12/pakistan-strike060212.html
[QUOTE]Also, Cindy was not the only one booted for wearing an offensive t-shirt. A republican congressman's wife was also kicked out for wearing a "support the war" t-shirt.[/QUOTE]
Interesting. Yay for freedom of speech, either way.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Fairy wrote: [/QUOTENAME]I understand what you mean, and it's very sensible. But I wouldn't want our freedom to be limited just because their "seeing things differently" means that they will kill us if we don't follow their rules. I couldn't care less about cartoons, we can do without them all right.[/QUOTE]
I completely agree with both of you. I'm just taking into account the fact that most muslim countries have not separated church and state, and that we have to figure into the equation that they will feel the need to react like they have. I'm not saying we're wrong and they're right. I'm saying that we have to give in, otherwise the violence will continue, unless their religious beliefs become a bit more moderate.
But I don't see that happening any time soon:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/02/12/pakistan-strike060212.html
[QUOTE]Also, Cindy was not the only one booted for wearing an offensive t-shirt. A republican congressman's wife was also kicked out for wearing a "support the war" t-shirt.[/QUOTE]
Interesting. Yay for freedom of speech, either way.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: I'm not saying we're wrong and they're right. I'm saying that we have to give in, otherwise the violence will continue, unless their religious beliefs become a bit more moderate.
But I don't see that happening any time soon:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/02/12/pakistan-strike060212.html
[/QUOTE]
At least the Pakistan protests have been relatively peaceful ... However, it seems to be powderkeg.
But I don't see that happening any time soon:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/02/12/pakistan-strike060212.html
[/QUOTE]
At least the Pakistan protests have been relatively peaceful ... However, it seems to be powderkeg.
I must be insane. This is the kind of shit that makes me want to *draw* offensive cartoons. Violent protests don't bloody impress me one bit, I find them utterly pointless and then when people get shot dead during protests... it's completely wasteful.
There really needs to be a law saying keep your religion to yourself. The odd crucifix or big rock or whatever is fine, but this shit has to stop. Only nutters take God over their own lives (and those of others).
There really needs to be a law saying keep your religion to yourself. The odd crucifix or big rock or whatever is fine, but this shit has to stop. Only nutters take God over their own lives (and those of others).