Is it me, or did this board just get a little more liberal?
It used to be fun to debate politics here, but this is a death trap.
Talking points:
-I feel safer that terror suspects, under the name of enemy combatants, are detained.
-President Bush was elected on two separate occations. To put it easily, he won election in more states that matter than Gore or Kerry. I must admit though, the dems sure do have a lock on the dead vote.
-The left, at least to me, seems to be more about complaining and less about proposing workable solutions.
Hillary Clinton would cause a huge international incident if she were elected in 2008. I remain confident though, that Americans have the sence to relize that now is not the time for a person like her to lead the country.
-Why am I even argueing about American politics with a bunch of foreigners. It say a lot to me to get a glimpse of what your news outlets are preaching.
I'm done, and will now leave this thread unless I see something worth discussing.
Thread
Posts in chronological order
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]YourValentine wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Smitty, the USA are the only super power. They are dangerous for every other country when someone like Bush is in office.
Last week German born Murat Kurnaz was sent home from Guantanamo bay prison after almost 5 years imprisonment for no reason.
He was kidnapped by the Bush regime in Pakistan shortly after the 9/11 attacks. He was only 19 years old and had just finished his education. He was taken to Guantanamo bay and tortured there for 5 years,
- he could see his American lawyer 5 times in 5 years
- no charge was ever filed against him, nor did he ever see a judge
- not a single piece of evidence was ever shown to justify his imprisonment
- he was not allowed to see anybody apart from the 5 visits of his lawyer.
- he was kept in a cage with artificial light day and night and never could talk to anybody.
- he was returned after endless negotiations with the German government in an airplane with his eyes blind folded and his body chained to the floor. He needs medical care and trauma therapy, his life was ruined.
The German government had to sign a paper assuring they would respect his human rights before he was sent home, what a joke!
How can you say it's not our business? The most powerful country in the world disregards the most basic human rights but has the ribaldry to call other nations "rogue countries" and threatens them with war!
I am a peaceful person and never raised my hand against anybody in my whole life. But I feel the anger rising in me with each new incident I hear, I feel the shame about not doing enough against this outrage and I tell you one thing:
There are thousands of Murats in this world - people being bombed, killed, arrested, humiliated, tortured, - and they all have families and friends and their anger must be ten times as bad as mine and they are not peaceful. It does not need islamic propaganda to make them "fighters in a holy war" or something - it's the Bush regime that creates thousands of new terrorists each day and it's our fault when we close our eyes and do not fight against injustice when we have the chance - in our own country!
[/QUOTE]
If this is true then I am outraged. What was the justification for taking him as a prisoner? Did he do anything wrong? Was he considered suspicious? Or dangerous or was he just walking down a street in Pakistan minding his own business and was snatched? I just can't understand why a 19 year old German would be taken in to custody if there wasn't any cause to hold him. Are we just taking people off the street to just hold them in cages until we see fit? If we are I want to see some concrete proof that I can use and I will write a letter every week to my congressman, the President, CNN, NBC, CBS, etc. and cause as much attention to this as one person can cause. Maybe I won't make a difference but I sure won't sit back and do nothing if infact our government is just picking people at liberty off the streets and putting them in cages for years. Our media here does not report things like this to us. I read the newspapers here and I watch the news daily. I did not know anything about this German boy.
If this is true then I want to do something about it.
Last week German born Murat Kurnaz was sent home from Guantanamo bay prison after almost 5 years imprisonment for no reason.
He was kidnapped by the Bush regime in Pakistan shortly after the 9/11 attacks. He was only 19 years old and had just finished his education. He was taken to Guantanamo bay and tortured there for 5 years,
- he could see his American lawyer 5 times in 5 years
- no charge was ever filed against him, nor did he ever see a judge
- not a single piece of evidence was ever shown to justify his imprisonment
- he was not allowed to see anybody apart from the 5 visits of his lawyer.
- he was kept in a cage with artificial light day and night and never could talk to anybody.
- he was returned after endless negotiations with the German government in an airplane with his eyes blind folded and his body chained to the floor. He needs medical care and trauma therapy, his life was ruined.
The German government had to sign a paper assuring they would respect his human rights before he was sent home, what a joke!
How can you say it's not our business? The most powerful country in the world disregards the most basic human rights but has the ribaldry to call other nations "rogue countries" and threatens them with war!
I am a peaceful person and never raised my hand against anybody in my whole life. But I feel the anger rising in me with each new incident I hear, I feel the shame about not doing enough against this outrage and I tell you one thing:
There are thousands of Murats in this world - people being bombed, killed, arrested, humiliated, tortured, - and they all have families and friends and their anger must be ten times as bad as mine and they are not peaceful. It does not need islamic propaganda to make them "fighters in a holy war" or something - it's the Bush regime that creates thousands of new terrorists each day and it's our fault when we close our eyes and do not fight against injustice when we have the chance - in our own country!
[/QUOTE]
If this is true then I am outraged. What was the justification for taking him as a prisoner? Did he do anything wrong? Was he considered suspicious? Or dangerous or was he just walking down a street in Pakistan minding his own business and was snatched? I just can't understand why a 19 year old German would be taken in to custody if there wasn't any cause to hold him. Are we just taking people off the street to just hold them in cages until we see fit? If we are I want to see some concrete proof that I can use and I will write a letter every week to my congressman, the President, CNN, NBC, CBS, etc. and cause as much attention to this as one person can cause. Maybe I won't make a difference but I sure won't sit back and do nothing if infact our government is just picking people at liberty off the streets and putting them in cages for years. Our media here does not report things like this to us. I read the newspapers here and I watch the news daily. I did not know anything about this German boy.
If this is true then I want to do something about it.
"It bothers me though how so many people who post crap about Bush around here are NOT FROM THE U.S.A. Yet complain regularly on how it's run. I do think though that the secret prisons are shady to say the least, but you don't see me posting crap about the government in the UK, or the Netherlands, or in like Mexico or that kind of crap."
This isn't the Mexico thread. It's about Bush. Stay on topic!
This isn't the Mexico thread. It's about Bush. Stay on topic!
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]yamaha wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
-The left, at least to me, seems to be more about complaining and less about proposing workable solutions.[/QUOTE]
This is pretty much it. I'm not saying that the right is doing the right thing, but the left definitely is not either.
-The left, at least to me, seems to be more about complaining and less about proposing workable solutions.[/QUOTE]
This is pretty much it. I'm not saying that the right is doing the right thing, but the left definitely is not either.
He was arrested because he had a Turkish passport and had travelled to Pakistan from Germany - that was his crime.
There was more to the story and the German governmennt did not look too good during the process, either! For example, Murat lost his permit to stay in Germany because he did not routinely apply for it being imprisoned by the USA! Only after Human Right organisations protested, the German government took care of the issue.
When the USA had to admit there was no charge to be filed and no reason for the arrest other than a prejudice, they tried to blackmail the Germans into accepting other innocent prisoners from Guantanamo Bay who had no country to return to. Although I understand that Germany does not want to be dragged into the illegal activities of the USA, it would have been good to take these people for humanity reasons but the Germans refused.
Also, the Americans demanded that Murat should hand in his passport to the police, he should be monitored non-stop (which would be 100% illegal here under any circumstances), should report to the police once a week - measures that would require a court decision and no court in a free country would decide such measures for no reason at all.
It's only one case of hundreds. We all know about Guantanamo Bay and that America acts worse than the "rogue countries" they accuse with all the self righteous hypocrisy that annoys the rest of the world - mainly the victims. Each of these cases and each victim of Abu Greibh or other prisons, victims of bombings and war will lead to angry people willing to kill any American they can find. And if it's a British or Italian or German - that won't make much of a difference for them. Actually, I am amazed that Western people are surprised about the hatred - it does not surprise me at all.
There was more to the story and the German governmennt did not look too good during the process, either! For example, Murat lost his permit to stay in Germany because he did not routinely apply for it being imprisoned by the USA! Only after Human Right organisations protested, the German government took care of the issue.
When the USA had to admit there was no charge to be filed and no reason for the arrest other than a prejudice, they tried to blackmail the Germans into accepting other innocent prisoners from Guantanamo Bay who had no country to return to. Although I understand that Germany does not want to be dragged into the illegal activities of the USA, it would have been good to take these people for humanity reasons but the Germans refused.
Also, the Americans demanded that Murat should hand in his passport to the police, he should be monitored non-stop (which would be 100% illegal here under any circumstances), should report to the police once a week - measures that would require a court decision and no court in a free country would decide such measures for no reason at all.
It's only one case of hundreds. We all know about Guantanamo Bay and that America acts worse than the "rogue countries" they accuse with all the self righteous hypocrisy that annoys the rest of the world - mainly the victims. Each of these cases and each victim of Abu Greibh or other prisons, victims of bombings and war will lead to angry people willing to kill any American they can find. And if it's a British or Italian or German - that won't make much of a difference for them. Actually, I am amazed that Western people are surprised about the hatred - it does not surprise me at all.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]yamaha wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
-The left, at least to me, seems to be more about complaining and less about proposing workable solutions.[/QUOTE]
This is pretty much it. I'm not saying that the right is doing the right thing, but the left definitely is not either.[/QUOTE]
You may have noticed that many suggestions for improvements have surfaced, all from the left side of the spectrum, while conservatives worldwide spend their time scuttling these ideas, but fail to come up with anything of their own.
The only agenda-points the American conservatives put any energy in, is attracting more capital in the form of large corporations, attracting more rich citizens by lowering taxes for the rich, creating a false sense of unity by drawing attention from their own incompetence to an only partly real image of a Muslim world which aims solely to destroy the west, and finally a never-ending post-imperialist aim for gaining more power in the world.
-The left, at least to me, seems to be more about complaining and less about proposing workable solutions.[/QUOTE]
This is pretty much it. I'm not saying that the right is doing the right thing, but the left definitely is not either.[/QUOTE]
You may have noticed that many suggestions for improvements have surfaced, all from the left side of the spectrum, while conservatives worldwide spend their time scuttling these ideas, but fail to come up with anything of their own.
The only agenda-points the American conservatives put any energy in, is attracting more capital in the form of large corporations, attracting more rich citizens by lowering taxes for the rich, creating a false sense of unity by drawing attention from their own incompetence to an only partly real image of a Muslim world which aims solely to destroy the west, and finally a never-ending post-imperialist aim for gaining more power in the world.
We all knew long before that there are secret prisons, and that's just a small part of the entire pot of bullshit waiting to boil at any minute.
After all, what else can we expect from government insiders who killed their own president (JFK), possibly his brother as well, and who have been secretly selling weapons to terrorists for decades.
After all, what else can we expect from government insiders who killed their own president (JFK), possibly his brother as well, and who have been secretly selling weapons to terrorists for decades.
It would be easy to say this board got more liberal, and to look at the surface it probably did. But remember, politians are politicans, no matter their stripe. Valid arguments can be raised against both sides (Democrats aren't coming up with new ideas, this is true. But Republicans can't get anything done they want to like social security reform...)
Politicans are the most self-serving people in the world, which is sad considering they are supposed to be servants of the people. Neither side is going to come up with any solutions, because they know they don't have to. All they have to do is make promises to get themselves elected into office, then sit around making themselves richer for four years, then the other side comes in and does the same thing. Unless a viable third party candidate can get in there and do some serious damange and hold both major parties accountable for themselves, nothing will ever be accomplished. That's not likely to happen in the future though....the third parties are too fragmented. If they could unify, then maybe.
And for the record, although I hate to admit it since it makes people judge me before they know me, I AM an American, and thus have a pretty good idea what I'm saying. And anybody has the right to complain about anything they want....but you also have the right not to listen to them if you don't want to. So if it bothers people that "foreigners" are posting criticisms here, just ignore it. No one is forcing you to read it. Quit complaining about it and move on.
Politicans are the most self-serving people in the world, which is sad considering they are supposed to be servants of the people. Neither side is going to come up with any solutions, because they know they don't have to. All they have to do is make promises to get themselves elected into office, then sit around making themselves richer for four years, then the other side comes in and does the same thing. Unless a viable third party candidate can get in there and do some serious damange and hold both major parties accountable for themselves, nothing will ever be accomplished. That's not likely to happen in the future though....the third parties are too fragmented. If they could unify, then maybe.
And for the record, although I hate to admit it since it makes people judge me before they know me, I AM an American, and thus have a pretty good idea what I'm saying. And anybody has the right to complain about anything they want....but you also have the right not to listen to them if you don't want to. So if it bothers people that "foreigners" are posting criticisms here, just ignore it. No one is forcing you to read it. Quit complaining about it and move on.
Third Parties don't work in the US, nor do they need to.
In a two party system, if one political party moves too far to the right or left, then the other can claim the middle ground. The middle ground, after all, is where most American's reside. You see that now as the Republicans promote conservative issues (immigration, gay marriage, War on Terror) while Democrats sit back and go straight up the middle.
If we had Third Parties in the US, then we would be talking about coalition govts, which could lead to fragmentation. That might help some groups (ie a Third Party dedicated to the environment) but its overall effectiveness is something political science people can debate (and poly sci people need something to do with their time).
In a two party system, if one political party moves too far to the right or left, then the other can claim the middle ground. The middle ground, after all, is where most American's reside. You see that now as the Republicans promote conservative issues (immigration, gay marriage, War on Terror) while Democrats sit back and go straight up the middle.
If we had Third Parties in the US, then we would be talking about coalition govts, which could lead to fragmentation. That might help some groups (ie a Third Party dedicated to the environment) but its overall effectiveness is something political science people can debate (and poly sci people need something to do with their time).
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color = "crimson"> ThomasQuinn wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Yet another bit of 'pleasant' news: more people have now died because of anti-terrorism than because of terrorism itself.[/QUOTE]
you cant measure lives like that
Yet another bit of 'pleasant' news: more people have now died because of anti-terrorism than because of terrorism itself.[/QUOTE]
you cant measure lives like that
Poly-party systems work extremely well worldwide. Besides, only the Federal Government in the US is a 2-party system. On local and state levels, plenty of independent or smaller-party candidates get elected.
Municipal elections are usually open field, which means that anyone can run without political affiliation. However, watch them closely, and you'll see that most who are elected are either Republican or Democratic.
As for state elections, they are usually primary driven, which means Democrats and Republicans dominate the field. Yes, independents and third party candidates are elected now and again, but it is not that common and is generally a regional issue. State officials make up the local networks for national parties.
In the US, third parties gain the most ground when people perceive that the Republicans or Democrats are ignoring the common man. They usually spike in attention, then fade as the Democrats and Republicans take over their ideological turf. And, while I realize this is debatable, I'm not convinced that this is a bad thing.
As for state elections, they are usually primary driven, which means Democrats and Republicans dominate the field. Yes, independents and third party candidates are elected now and again, but it is not that common and is generally a regional issue. State officials make up the local networks for national parties.
In the US, third parties gain the most ground when people perceive that the Republicans or Democrats are ignoring the common man. They usually spike in attention, then fade as the Democrats and Republicans take over their ideological turf. And, while I realize this is debatable, I'm not convinced that this is a bad thing.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]SMITTY™ wrote: [/QUOTENAME]It bothers me though how so many people who post crap about Bush around here are NOT FROM THE U.S.A. [/QUOTE]
Here Here!!!!!!
Boy, you anti-Bush people are really funny...
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Freddies son wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Bush is by far the worst ever American president [/QUOTE]
You're 17. How would you know?
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]ThomasQuinn wrote: [/QUOTENAME] I'm not familiar with 19th century US politics in general. [/QUOTE]
Perhaps we could get Freddies son's take?
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]CMU HistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME] That means some Democrats would have to vote with the Republicans, and you know that's not about to happen any time soon.[/QUOTE]
Hey Democrats! You sent out Joe Lieberman to run for president. And now you're pissy that Bush is still President? Before calling Bush stupid, maybe you should do a little introspection....
Democrats: "Nah, let's just throw Hillary out there in 2008."
Republicans: "Gee, thanks for 4 more years!."
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Crezchi wrote: [/QUOTENAME]I didn't vote for Bush the 1st or 2nd time. [/QUOTE]
No, you were too worried about your IP address.
Here Here!!!!!!
Boy, you anti-Bush people are really funny...
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Freddies son wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Bush is by far the worst ever American president [/QUOTE]
You're 17. How would you know?
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]ThomasQuinn wrote: [/QUOTENAME] I'm not familiar with 19th century US politics in general. [/QUOTE]
Perhaps we could get Freddies son's take?
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]CMU HistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME] That means some Democrats would have to vote with the Republicans, and you know that's not about to happen any time soon.[/QUOTE]
Hey Democrats! You sent out Joe Lieberman to run for president. And now you're pissy that Bush is still President? Before calling Bush stupid, maybe you should do a little introspection....
Democrats: "Nah, let's just throw Hillary out there in 2008."
Republicans: "Gee, thanks for 4 more years!."
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Crezchi wrote: [/QUOTENAME]I didn't vote for Bush the 1st or 2nd time. [/QUOTE]
No, you were too worried about your IP address.
Speaking of third party candidates, isn't it ironic that while classically liberal ideas are lauded and taught to our children at such young and impressionable ages, in history classes and such, the Libertarian Party is nonetheless pretty much stuck in the mud, with little to no hope of attaining any sort of prevalence? The answer may be blatantly obvious, but I haven't stumbled upon it yet.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Zeni wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Third Parties don't work in the US, nor do they need to.
In a two party system, if one political party moves too far to the right or left, then the other can claim the middle ground. The middle ground, after all, is where most American's reside. You see that now as the Republicans promote conservative issues (immigration, gay marriage, War on Terror) while Democrats sit back and go straight up the middle.
If we had Third Parties in the US, then we would be talking about coalition govts, which could lead to fragmentation. That might help some groups (ie a Third Party dedicated to the environment) but its overall effectiveness is something political science people can debate (and poly sci people need something to do with their time).
[/QUOTE]
You've raised a valid point, and I'm not going to disagree with you on this one. In an idea society with an ideal political system, that's how this would work.
However, this isn't an ideal world. Both of the main parties have figured out that neither of them need do anything, because the only criticism they have coming at them is from the other side, which is going to criticize anyway.
It's like having two kids fighting with eachother. Let them go on and on until they both turn blue, but if both are stubborn enough the fight will never end, because they've both figured out that in a strange way, they need eachother to get what they want. That's why neither major party will help the 3rd parties out at all. Defending criticism on one front is fine, but get it coming from two, and you suddenly have to start changing your strategies.
To go back to the kids fighting analogy, when do kids tend to have the fight end? When a third party (adult or another kid) comes in and either sugguests a compromise or ends it in some other way.
This is why we've had years of next to nothing accomplished in politics, and the unpopular things that have been accomplished haven't been fixed, for all of the screaming about them. There isn't a real threat to the parties in power to make them change anything, and since there are only two powers, compromises must be made to make anything work at all. Like you said, most Americans tend to fall in the middle, which means there is a balance of both sides in government, but when both sides refuse to work with eachother, you have a stalemate, and nothing gets done.
Government can do wonderfull things....The weeks after 9-11 proved just how much a government can accomplish (for good or evil) when both sides are actually united to work with eachother. But a stalemate helps no one, and that's where the two party system is right now. ONE third party would break up the stalemate, and stuff might actually start to get done. However, only ONE third party is needed, any more than that, and you are right. Chaos will ensue and nothing will get done because of bickering and confusion.
In a two party system, if one political party moves too far to the right or left, then the other can claim the middle ground. The middle ground, after all, is where most American's reside. You see that now as the Republicans promote conservative issues (immigration, gay marriage, War on Terror) while Democrats sit back and go straight up the middle.
If we had Third Parties in the US, then we would be talking about coalition govts, which could lead to fragmentation. That might help some groups (ie a Third Party dedicated to the environment) but its overall effectiveness is something political science people can debate (and poly sci people need something to do with their time).
[/QUOTE]
You've raised a valid point, and I'm not going to disagree with you on this one. In an idea society with an ideal political system, that's how this would work.
However, this isn't an ideal world. Both of the main parties have figured out that neither of them need do anything, because the only criticism they have coming at them is from the other side, which is going to criticize anyway.
It's like having two kids fighting with eachother. Let them go on and on until they both turn blue, but if both are stubborn enough the fight will never end, because they've both figured out that in a strange way, they need eachother to get what they want. That's why neither major party will help the 3rd parties out at all. Defending criticism on one front is fine, but get it coming from two, and you suddenly have to start changing your strategies.
To go back to the kids fighting analogy, when do kids tend to have the fight end? When a third party (adult or another kid) comes in and either sugguests a compromise or ends it in some other way.
This is why we've had years of next to nothing accomplished in politics, and the unpopular things that have been accomplished haven't been fixed, for all of the screaming about them. There isn't a real threat to the parties in power to make them change anything, and since there are only two powers, compromises must be made to make anything work at all. Like you said, most Americans tend to fall in the middle, which means there is a balance of both sides in government, but when both sides refuse to work with eachother, you have a stalemate, and nothing gets done.
Government can do wonderfull things....The weeks after 9-11 proved just how much a government can accomplish (for good or evil) when both sides are actually united to work with eachother. But a stalemate helps no one, and that's where the two party system is right now. ONE third party would break up the stalemate, and stuff might actually start to get done. However, only ONE third party is needed, any more than that, and you are right. Chaos will ensue and nothing will get done because of bickering and confusion.