It's late, and I want to go to bed, but I'll just write a quick note. The Catholic Church is improving, albeit ever so slightly. Since the entire institution is based upon a strict adherement to its ancient tenets, it's rather difficult for such an organization to suddenly change. I mean, the Vatican could just one day say, "We endorse gay marriage," but if that happened, most Catholics would not endorse the Vatican. The Vatican holds less power than one would think - like a politician, their power comes from agreement with the population (Catholics).
However, nowadays, you have Church officials afraid to denounce other religions, whereas ages past this would have been a common practice. In another time, the Church would have declared war on Muslims for 9/11. However, these days, they were cautious not to judge a religion by the actions of a few. The Church has become extremely tolerant - no, they have become extremely accepting of other religions. Then again, this is the Vatican...I can't speak for many (although a small percentage) followers of the faith who would just as quickly tell you you're going to hell for being Jewish.
Now, that's just one example, but you can see the slow gears shifting behind the scenes, and that the Church's values are changing ever so slightly. You have to realize that gay marriage and gay acceptance is an extremely new and modern issue. It's impossible for an institution like the Roman Catholic Church to assimilate so fast, when all its followers are so reluctant to.
Another thing is "Cafeteria Christianity," where members pick and choose what they believe in. This puts the Vatican in a more or less impotent place. You'll have Roman Catholics in the north wanting gay marriage, and those in the south wanting gay lynchings. It's a complicated issue, but I do see where you're coming from.
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Against it. Sorry but i think that it is just disgusting. But that's my opinion, so let's not have people getting on me about my opinion ok? lol
Music Man, I don't see how the Catholic Church is changing. They still refuse to share communion with Protestants which brings many Catholic/protestant couples in the awkward position that the Protestant parent is excluded from communion when the child goes to First Communion (just one example of the heartless and intolerant attitude of the Catholic Church). Just recently the Pope declared that homosexual men are not allowed to be priests any longer because they "do not understand" the problems of a family. (actually, it made many people laugh, we did not know it was allowed before). Considering that Catholic priests are celibate, it's a strange decision: why are heterosexual celibates in any way more moral and open to family issues than homosexual?
The Catholic church has lost all its influence in the Western world because the liberated West does not listen to the strict and intolerant church anymore. The church today has more power in South America and in Africa. Even though the Pope is celebrated like a pop star people do not live according to church rules and the law does not follow the church, either - like it did in former centuries. Therefore, civil marriage is mandatory in most Western countries and the church can only marry people who are also married by law.
The Catholic church has lost all its influence in the Western world because the liberated West does not listen to the strict and intolerant church anymore. The church today has more power in South America and in Africa. Even though the Pope is celebrated like a pop star people do not live according to church rules and the law does not follow the church, either - like it did in former centuries. Therefore, civil marriage is mandatory in most Western countries and the church can only marry people who are also married by law.
I'm pro.
I think they should make it legal. They have every right to be as miserable as us straight-folk.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]YourValentine wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Music Man, I don't see how the Catholic Church is changing. They still refuse to share communion with Protestants which brings many Catholic/protestant couples in the awkward position that the Protestant parent is excluded from communion when the child goes to First Communion (just one example of the heartless and intolerant attitude of the Catholic Church).
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I'm not sure if you understand why the Catholic Church excludes Protestants from Communion. It is not because they have anything against them. If I understand correctly, Protestants don't believe that the bread and wine go through transubstantiation (the process of actually become the Body and Blood of Christ). Protestants beileve that the communion they are recieving is symbollic. That is the main difference between Catholics and Protestants.
Now, my dad is a Protestant so he just leaves before we get Communion, but if he really wanted he could go up with us and just pass by as we're in the recieving line. He could even recieve a blessing if he wanted to that badly.
If I was a Protestant, I wouldn't want to recieve communion at a Catholic church, because that is a big difference.
You need to go through the process of making your first communion to recieve. Some Catholics don't even get to recieve because they've never made their first communion (although, they can go through with that any time they want).
So, I am sure the reason why Catholics and Protestants don't recieve together has nothing to do with discrimination, but the fact that beliefs clash about recieving. Therefore, I don't see what needs to be changed about that, it is just supporting each of the faiths to stick by what they believe.
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I'm not sure if you understand why the Catholic Church excludes Protestants from Communion. It is not because they have anything against them. If I understand correctly, Protestants don't believe that the bread and wine go through transubstantiation (the process of actually become the Body and Blood of Christ). Protestants beileve that the communion they are recieving is symbollic. That is the main difference between Catholics and Protestants.
Now, my dad is a Protestant so he just leaves before we get Communion, but if he really wanted he could go up with us and just pass by as we're in the recieving line. He could even recieve a blessing if he wanted to that badly.
If I was a Protestant, I wouldn't want to recieve communion at a Catholic church, because that is a big difference.
You need to go through the process of making your first communion to recieve. Some Catholics don't even get to recieve because they've never made their first communion (although, they can go through with that any time they want).
So, I am sure the reason why Catholics and Protestants don't recieve together has nothing to do with discrimination, but the fact that beliefs clash about recieving. Therefore, I don't see what needs to be changed about that, it is just supporting each of the faiths to stick by what they believe.
KillerQueen - communion and baptism are the only Protestant sacraments while the Catholics have 5 more. There is no basic difference in the Protestant and Catholic sacrament of communion. The reason why Catholics do not allow Protestants to share the Communion is - they believe that the Catholic faith is the only "right" one. While Protestants allow Catolic people to the communion thinking that it's ok to share the communion as brothers and sisters following the same religion, the Vatican stubbornly refuses to respect other Christian churches and denies the Catholics the pleasure to celebrate communion together with Protestants as a family. The communion is the main issue in all dicussions about ecumenism. It alienates more people from their church than any other issue.
I don't have anything against gay marriage, as long as they don't adopt kids. It's not ideal for a kid to grow up with two daddies or two mummies... if you ask me.
These are all excellent questions and issues that have been raised, but I have an interesting take for the person who said that there are "Cafeteria Catholics" out there. While I'm not denying they exist, indeed there are "Cafeteria Christians" of all denominations out there. However, this new pope has seen fit to make one of the basic tenents of his papacy the fighting of the rise of secularism in Europe and the West in general, and has many times decried the "Cafeteria Catholics" who are out there. My take is this....there is no worse "Cafeteria Catholic" out there than the Roman Catholic Church itself, and indeed even devout followers of any other Christian religious persuasion are "Cafeteria" by the defintion of picking and choosing.
There are tons and tons of contradictions in the Bible. For every passage that says that you should or should not do something because an invisible man in the sky told you to, I have the ultimate answer. It's from the Bible, but it is the one quote that people misuse and or forget about the most. "Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged". Just one example of the Catholic church's hipocracy here....we won't allow gays to be priests or to get married, because they are judged to be unworthy both by us and by god. What about the passage I just cited?
If everyone would just remember that one passage, religion wouldn't be quite as screwed up as it is today.
So if the pope wants to fight secularism, he's going to have an uphill battle. The bottom line is secularism is, in general but not always, more tolerant than religion, and most Western societies place great importance on toleration. I'd personally rather see an areligous but tolerant society emerge in the world than an intolerant but religious one.
There are tons and tons of contradictions in the Bible. For every passage that says that you should or should not do something because an invisible man in the sky told you to, I have the ultimate answer. It's from the Bible, but it is the one quote that people misuse and or forget about the most. "Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged". Just one example of the Catholic church's hipocracy here....we won't allow gays to be priests or to get married, because they are judged to be unworthy both by us and by god. What about the passage I just cited?
If everyone would just remember that one passage, religion wouldn't be quite as screwed up as it is today.
So if the pope wants to fight secularism, he's going to have an uphill battle. The bottom line is secularism is, in general but not always, more tolerant than religion, and most Western societies place great importance on toleration. I'd personally rather see an areligous but tolerant society emerge in the world than an intolerant but religious one.
I think complex marriage is the way to go.
I'm going to have to buck the trend and vote no on the gay marriage issue. To me marriage is the institution by which families are started. This may be the faith rooted side of me coming out here, but gay marriage would devalue straight marriages IMO.
That being said, I support the right of gays to live together, and I do not doubt the ability of gays to raise children. I would totally support the institution of a civil union between gays.
I'm going to have to buck the trend and vote no on the gay marriage issue. To me marriage is the institution by which families are started. This may be the faith rooted side of me coming out here, but gay marriage would devalue straight marriages IMO.
That being said, I support the right of gays to live together, and I do not doubt the ability of gays to raise children. I would totally support the institution of a civil union between gays.
I AM GOD
LET THERE BE GAY MARRIAGE
LET THERE BE GAY MARRIAGE
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME]The Catholic Church is improving, albeit ever so slightly.[/QUOTE]
I seriously doubt it.
The Catholic Church is so stuck to keeping up their traditional agenda that it's most likely that we won't live to see some sort of reform that will "modernize" their points of view.
The only CHANGES on the Catholic Church are the changes of diocesis given to priests accused of child molestation.
I seriously doubt it.
The Catholic Church is so stuck to keeping up their traditional agenda that it's most likely that we won't live to see some sort of reform that will "modernize" their points of view.
The only CHANGES on the Catholic Church are the changes of diocesis given to priests accused of child molestation.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]YourValentine wrote: [/QUOTENAME]KillerQueen - communion and baptism are the only Protestant sacraments while the Catholics have 5 more. There is no basic difference in the Protestant and Catholic sacrament of communion. The reason why Catholics do not allow Protestants to share the Communion is - they believe that the Catholic faith is the only "right" one. While Protestants allow Catolic people to the communion thinking that it's ok to share the communion as brothers and sisters following the same religion, the Vatican stubbornly refuses to respect other Christian churches and denies the Catholics the pleasure to celebrate communion together with Protestants as a family. The communion is the main issue in all dicussions about ecumenism. It alienates more people from their church than any other issue. [/QUOTE]
Yes there is a difference... The difference is to Catholics the Eucharist is not symbollic. Catholics believe it is actually Christ. To Protestants it is symbollic.
For Catholics (maybe for Protestants too, I have no idea) the Eucharist is the holiest sacrament. It requires great prepartion (through classes) to become ready for it. If you are Protestant you have not gone through those same ("same", being key word, I'm not denying that Protestants don't have to go through classes, because I have no idea if they do or don't) classes.
Catholics who have not gone through this preparation process through the Catholic Church are not able to recieve communion, themselves.
If not even Catholics, then, who have not gone through this process can recieve the Eucharist, why should Protestants be able to?
Yes, the Church is very fixed on this and will probably never change. But it's the ground rules for everyone, not just certain people.
It has nothing to do with the Catholic faith believing they are "the right one."
It has to do with that ground belief, the only difference, in communion.
Yes there is a difference... The difference is to Catholics the Eucharist is not symbollic. Catholics believe it is actually Christ. To Protestants it is symbollic.
For Catholics (maybe for Protestants too, I have no idea) the Eucharist is the holiest sacrament. It requires great prepartion (through classes) to become ready for it. If you are Protestant you have not gone through those same ("same", being key word, I'm not denying that Protestants don't have to go through classes, because I have no idea if they do or don't) classes.
Catholics who have not gone through this preparation process through the Catholic Church are not able to recieve communion, themselves.
If not even Catholics, then, who have not gone through this process can recieve the Eucharist, why should Protestants be able to?
Yes, the Church is very fixed on this and will probably never change. But it's the ground rules for everyone, not just certain people.
It has nothing to do with the Catholic faith believing they are "the right one."
It has to do with that ground belief, the only difference, in communion.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]CMU HistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME]These are all excellent questions and issues that have been raised, but I have an interesting take for the person who said that there are "Cafeteria Catholics" out there. While I'm not denying they exist, indeed there are "Cafeteria Christians" of all denominations out there. However, this new pope has seen fit to make one of the basic tenents of his papacy the fighting of the rise of secularism in Europe and the West in general, and has many times decried the "Cafeteria Catholics" who are out there. My take is this....there is no worse "Cafeteria Catholic" out there than the Roman Catholic Church itself, and indeed even devout followers of any other Christian religious persuasion are "Cafeteria" by the defintion of picking and choosing.
There are tons and tons of contradictions in the Bible. For every passage that says that you should or should not do something because an invisible man in the sky told you to, I have the ultimate answer. It's from the Bible, but it is the one quote that people misuse and or forget about the most. "Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged". Just one example of the Catholic church's hipocracy here....we won't allow gays to be priests or to get married, because they are judged to be unworthy both by us and by god. What about the passage I just cited?
If everyone would just remember that one passage, religion wouldn't be quite as screwed up as it is today.
So if the pope wants to fight secularism, he's going to have an uphill battle. The bottom line is secularism is, in general but not always, more tolerant than religion, and most Western societies place great importance on toleration. I'd personally rather see an areligous but tolerant society emerge in the world than an intolerant but religious one. [/QUOTE]
Toleration?
There are tons and tons of contradictions in the Bible. For every passage that says that you should or should not do something because an invisible man in the sky told you to, I have the ultimate answer. It's from the Bible, but it is the one quote that people misuse and or forget about the most. "Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged". Just one example of the Catholic church's hipocracy here....we won't allow gays to be priests or to get married, because they are judged to be unworthy both by us and by god. What about the passage I just cited?
If everyone would just remember that one passage, religion wouldn't be quite as screwed up as it is today.
So if the pope wants to fight secularism, he's going to have an uphill battle. The bottom line is secularism is, in general but not always, more tolerant than religion, and most Western societies place great importance on toleration. I'd personally rather see an areligous but tolerant society emerge in the world than an intolerant but religious one. [/QUOTE]
Toleration?
If two people love each other and are genuine, then they should be allowed to marry. Love is the most significant thing. LOVE. ;)