[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]KensingtonLove(Darunkhanawala) wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Toleration?[/QUOTE]
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=toleration
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[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=?B2F><b>Crezchi wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Against it. Sorry but i think that it is just disgusting. But that's my opinion, so let's not have people getting on me about my opinion ok? lol[/QUOTE]
It's okay for you to believe that; however, it would not be okay to support legislation against it in a free, liberal state. And I implore you not to seek, support, or vote on any such legislation. Anyone who would even think about doing such does NOT understand the core liberal values of our United States government.
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Another point was made that the secular are often more tolerant than the religious. This is technically not true. As per human nature, every single person is bigoted. They have a set of beliefs, and they will accept what is consistent with them, and reject what is not.
One of the main tenets of the secular, however, is freedom of religion. It's obvious why this would not be high on the priorities of the religious. However, it's very evident that those who believe in freedom of religion are very intolerant of those who do not, I would dare venture that they are more intolerant than the religious due to the fact that freedom of religion is now a widely accepted tenet, and they have become a large majority.
Likewise, we should take the homosexuality issue. Those who support homosexual unions are obviously more tolerant than those who do not, correct? Incorrect. In fact, they seem to be even less tolerant (I know this from personal experience - I would get into angry fits with friends and strangers alike who would dare disagree and say homosexuals should be denied such a union; I have since realized how I was acting).
EVERYONE has VERY SIMILAR levels of tolerance. It is their OPINIONS which differ. There is one truth for every sentient person on this planet. That makes up billions of different truths, and each truth is only true to the individual. Remember, Hitler was only wrong because most (if not all) people saw his actions as wrong. There is no one ultimate truth or morality, and it is VERY important to realize this.
And I apologize for my philosophical diversion.
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And I also apologize for not addressing the state of the Roman Catholic Church's views. To be honest, I am not very familiar with them. I spoke only from what little I knew, heard, and perceived. I have for the longest time renounced my faith (I never actually had the faith, but was rather forced into religion up until Confirmation). However, to get a point of view from someone who is within the organization might provide a heavily biased opinion. So in conclusion, I apologize for bringing up the topic without proper education. I did find it necessary to rebut, however, as religion in general tends to bear the brunt of many an unfair and biased attack.
It's okay for you to believe that; however, it would not be okay to support legislation against it in a free, liberal state. And I implore you not to seek, support, or vote on any such legislation. Anyone who would even think about doing such does NOT understand the core liberal values of our United States government.
=========================
Another point was made that the secular are often more tolerant than the religious. This is technically not true. As per human nature, every single person is bigoted. They have a set of beliefs, and they will accept what is consistent with them, and reject what is not.
One of the main tenets of the secular, however, is freedom of religion. It's obvious why this would not be high on the priorities of the religious. However, it's very evident that those who believe in freedom of religion are very intolerant of those who do not, I would dare venture that they are more intolerant than the religious due to the fact that freedom of religion is now a widely accepted tenet, and they have become a large majority.
Likewise, we should take the homosexuality issue. Those who support homosexual unions are obviously more tolerant than those who do not, correct? Incorrect. In fact, they seem to be even less tolerant (I know this from personal experience - I would get into angry fits with friends and strangers alike who would dare disagree and say homosexuals should be denied such a union; I have since realized how I was acting).
EVERYONE has VERY SIMILAR levels of tolerance. It is their OPINIONS which differ. There is one truth for every sentient person on this planet. That makes up billions of different truths, and each truth is only true to the individual. Remember, Hitler was only wrong because most (if not all) people saw his actions as wrong. There is no one ultimate truth or morality, and it is VERY important to realize this.
And I apologize for my philosophical diversion.
=========================
And I also apologize for not addressing the state of the Roman Catholic Church's views. To be honest, I am not very familiar with them. I spoke only from what little I knew, heard, and perceived. I have for the longest time renounced my faith (I never actually had the faith, but was rather forced into religion up until Confirmation). However, to get a point of view from someone who is within the organization might provide a heavily biased opinion. So in conclusion, I apologize for bringing up the topic without proper education. I did find it necessary to rebut, however, as religion in general tends to bear the brunt of many an unfair and biased attack.
These are very interesting ideas, Music Man. However, opinions or ethics are not cemented in an individual or in a society. You will notice that children are often very intolerant and only play with their "clique" but when they get older life teaches them to be more respectful towards the opinion of other people. While young people are often very radical in their opinions they get less exclusive when school, university, job forces them to get along with people who have totally different opinions. It's a matter of learning, growing and teaching yourself. Of course, individuals develop in a different way, some people are completely unable to ever change their minds about any issue. Also, we are all exposed to manipulation by the published opinion, media, and people we listen to.
In the same way a society develops: majority opinions change and legislature follows the changes. Of course, these changes must not always be for the better as we know from bitter experience. But some values are the same in all free societies: that the rights of the minorities must be protected, that every living person has the right to live unharmend and to follow their beliefs and live their lifestyle. Still, we are far away from actually enforcing all these values - see death penalty, race crimes, denying fugitives their human rights etc.
The marriage (or registered partnership as we call it) of gay people in my country is the result of a value change in the society. 30 years ago gays lived in the hiding, they could not become teachers, soldiers or make a career in any respectable profession. They were often victims of hate crimes (they still are!). Over the decades the public opinion changed and now the mayors of Berlin and Hamburg, the leader of the liberal party and many "celebrities" are open gays - because they do not need to fear to be publicly criticised for that. But still, gays do not have the same rights as heterosexual couples, for example they cannot adopt a child as a couple.
In the same way a society develops: majority opinions change and legislature follows the changes. Of course, these changes must not always be for the better as we know from bitter experience. But some values are the same in all free societies: that the rights of the minorities must be protected, that every living person has the right to live unharmend and to follow their beliefs and live their lifestyle. Still, we are far away from actually enforcing all these values - see death penalty, race crimes, denying fugitives their human rights etc.
The marriage (or registered partnership as we call it) of gay people in my country is the result of a value change in the society. 30 years ago gays lived in the hiding, they could not become teachers, soldiers or make a career in any respectable profession. They were often victims of hate crimes (they still are!). Over the decades the public opinion changed and now the mayors of Berlin and Hamburg, the leader of the liberal party and many "celebrities" are open gays - because they do not need to fear to be publicly criticised for that. But still, gays do not have the same rights as heterosexual couples, for example they cannot adopt a child as a couple.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]YourValentine wrote: [/QUOTENAME]These are very interesting ideas, Music Man. However, opinions or ethics are not cemented in an individual or in a society. You will notice that children are often very intolerant and only play with their "clique" but when they get older life teaches them to be more respectful towards the opinion of other people. While young people are often very radical in their opinions they get less exclusive when school, university, job forces them to get along with people who have totally different opinions. It's a matter of learning, growing and teaching yourself. Of course, individuals develop in a different way, some people are completely unable to ever change their minds about any issue. Also, we are all exposed to manipulation by the published opinion, media, and people we listen to.[/QUOTE]
It's not only a way of self-development. The environment in which you grow up is just as important... family, friends, and neighbourhood. I mean... I grew up in a social family (my uncle was alderman for the PVDA.. comparable with SPD/The Labour Party/etc) and I learned to respect everybody. Black, white... poor, rich. Heterosexual or homosexual. I don't care.
But you are right about children. Children are like animals.. They are a bit selfish, and have problems with accepting people who are different.
[QUOTE]
The marriage (or registered partnership as we call it) of gay people in my country is the result of a value change in the society. 30 years ago gays lived in the hiding, they could not become teachers, soldiers or make a career in any respectable profession. They were often victims of hate crimes (they still are!). Over the decades the public opinion changed and now the mayors of Berlin and Hamburg, the leader of the liberal party and many "celebrities" are open gays - because they do not need to fear to be publicly criticised for that. But still, gays do not have the same rights as heterosexual couples, for example they cannot adopt a child as a couple.[/QUOTE]
That's why I'm proud of my country. It's all possible in Holland. We even have a popular tv-personality who adopted two kids with his husband. And I guess everyone accepts it. :)
It's not only a way of self-development. The environment in which you grow up is just as important... family, friends, and neighbourhood. I mean... I grew up in a social family (my uncle was alderman for the PVDA.. comparable with SPD/The Labour Party/etc) and I learned to respect everybody. Black, white... poor, rich. Heterosexual or homosexual. I don't care.
But you are right about children. Children are like animals.. They are a bit selfish, and have problems with accepting people who are different.
[QUOTE]
The marriage (or registered partnership as we call it) of gay people in my country is the result of a value change in the society. 30 years ago gays lived in the hiding, they could not become teachers, soldiers or make a career in any respectable profession. They were often victims of hate crimes (they still are!). Over the decades the public opinion changed and now the mayors of Berlin and Hamburg, the leader of the liberal party and many "celebrities" are open gays - because they do not need to fear to be publicly criticised for that. But still, gays do not have the same rights as heterosexual couples, for example they cannot adopt a child as a couple.[/QUOTE]
That's why I'm proud of my country. It's all possible in Holland. We even have a popular tv-personality who adopted two kids with his husband. And I guess everyone accepts it. :)
I agree with gay marriage under the only condition that gay people have to stop dancing in speedos and rubbing their crotches on each other's face in public parades.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Mr.Jingles wrote: [/QUOTENAME]I agree with gay marriage under the only condition that gay people have to stop dancing in speedos and rubbing their crotches on each other's face in public parades.[/QUOTE]
:P ... And what about two lesbians?
:P ... And what about two lesbians?
Tolerance is the word of a coward. Nobody ever uses the word 'respect' - nah, it's all "I tolerate this" as if it's some kind of chore to just *GET ALONG WITH OTHER PEOPLE*.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=#CC0066 face="Bradley Hand ITC"> The Mir@cle </font> wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Mr.Jingles wrote: [/QUOTENAME]I agree with gay marriage under the only condition that gay people have to stop dancing in speedos and rubbing their crotches on each other's face in public parades.[/QUOTE]
:P ... And what about two lesbians?[/QUOTE]
I was going to ask the same question! ;)
:P ... And what about two lesbians?[/QUOTE]
I was going to ask the same question! ;)
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Zebonka12 wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Tolerance is the word of a coward. Nobody ever uses the word 'respect' - nah, it's all "I tolerate this" as if it's some kind of chore to just *GET ALONG WITH OTHER PEOPLE*.[/QUOTE]
I realize that toleration isn't the best option out there...in a perfect world everyone would respect everyone else. The problem is, you can't make anyone do something they don't want to do. For example, you can't force a group of blacks to live in a white, bigotted neighborhood and expect everyone in that neighborhood to respect the new arrivals. In a couple of generations, maybe, but not right away. Since you can't make respect happen instantaneously, the next best step is toleration. No one needs to like or get along with everyone, we'd drive ourselves insane trying to get all of humanity to do that. It would be nice...but probably never happen. If we can get everyone in humanity to tolerate differences, then that would be better than what we have now.
And with the children issue...a good point has been brought up here. No one is born hating anything...hate is something that you learn from society. No one is born a racist, or a sexist, or a bigot, or a homophobe...they become that way because in their world of reality it is accepted, or taught to them as acceptable. The children of a Klu Klux Klan member, when born, as just as tolerant (or intolerant) as the child of a peace loving hippie....it's only the teachings that child receives that changes those things.
I realize that toleration isn't the best option out there...in a perfect world everyone would respect everyone else. The problem is, you can't make anyone do something they don't want to do. For example, you can't force a group of blacks to live in a white, bigotted neighborhood and expect everyone in that neighborhood to respect the new arrivals. In a couple of generations, maybe, but not right away. Since you can't make respect happen instantaneously, the next best step is toleration. No one needs to like or get along with everyone, we'd drive ourselves insane trying to get all of humanity to do that. It would be nice...but probably never happen. If we can get everyone in humanity to tolerate differences, then that would be better than what we have now.
And with the children issue...a good point has been brought up here. No one is born hating anything...hate is something that you learn from society. No one is born a racist, or a sexist, or a bigot, or a homophobe...they become that way because in their world of reality it is accepted, or taught to them as acceptable. The children of a Klu Klux Klan member, when born, as just as tolerant (or intolerant) as the child of a peace loving hippie....it's only the teachings that child receives that changes those things.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Zebonka12 wrote: [/QUOTENAME] Nobody ever uses the word 'respect' [/QUOTE]
Good post! I guess I was the only one talking about respect. ;)
Good post! I guess I was the only one talking about respect. ;)
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=#CC0066 face="Bradley Hand ITC"> The Mir@cle </font> wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Mr.Jingles wrote: [/QUOTENAME]I agree with gay marriage under the only condition that gay people have to stop dancing in speedos and rubbing their crotches on each other's face in public parades.[/QUOTE]
:P ... And what about two lesbians?[/QUOTE]
As long as they're hot, I don't mind watching them make out in public.
:P ... And what about two lesbians?[/QUOTE]
As long as they're hot, I don't mind watching them make out in public.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]KensingtonLove(Darunkhanawala) wrote: [/QUOTENAME]If two people love each other and are genuine, then they should be allowed to marry. Love is the most significant thing. LOVE. ;)[/QUOTE]
Couldn't agree more, dear.
Couldn't agree more, dear.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Mr.Jingles wrote: [/QUOTENAME]I agree with gay marriage under the only condition that gay people have to stop dancing in speedos and rubbing their crotches on each other's face in public parades.[/QUOTE]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igC4bPDp6cU
Fooooo!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igC4bPDp6cU
Fooooo!
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]CMU HistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME]The children of a Klu Klux Klan member, when born, as just as tolerant (or intolerant) as the child of a peace loving hippie....it's only the teachings that child receives that changes those things.[/QUOTE]
Many will disagree to some point, especially those educated in science. The whole nurture vs. nature argument.
Many will disagree to some point, especially those educated in science. The whole nurture vs. nature argument.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]CMU HistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME]The children of a Klu Klux Klan member, when born, as just as tolerant (or intolerant) as the child of a peace loving hippie....it's only the teachings that child receives that changes those things.[/QUOTE]
Many will disagree to some point, especially those educated in science. The whole nurture vs. nature argument.
[/QUOTE]
True, and that argument will never be solved. But we do know that those children we have found who have been completely isolated from society and from humans in general (the last one was found in Russia in the late 19th century) didn't have any prejudices or hates towards any humans, once they got over the fear aspect. That lends credence to the nurture argument.
Many will disagree to some point, especially those educated in science. The whole nurture vs. nature argument.
[/QUOTE]
True, and that argument will never be solved. But we do know that those children we have found who have been completely isolated from society and from humans in general (the last one was found in Russia in the late 19th century) didn't have any prejudices or hates towards any humans, once they got over the fear aspect. That lends credence to the nurture argument.