I think something that people are losing sight of is that, in their prime, Page and Plant weren't all that bad! One can put a lot of their 'decline' down to drugs, I believe. Or at least, a dodgy larynx. I will contest that Robert Plant was better at that Atlantic Record thing than he was at Live Aid (he at least managed some falsetto), but Jimmy Page got worse.
Didn't Page not even touch guitar for a couple of years after John Bonham quit breathing? Thats got to have something to do with it, surely.
Another thing about Page - he was always messy, true enough, but the guy is a foundation in modern guitar playing. A lot of young dudes would've learned his stuff in order to get better.... it's like singling out someone in our evolutionary chain and taking a piss on him because he didn't have a mobile phone!
We'd be overrating him, calling him the best of anything, because even in his heyday I think he was outgunned. But... ya know, there were worse.
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I started playing guitar about a year ago and I'm average and I can actually play a lot of Page's licks and solos, but I can't even begin to fathom Brian's rythm, skill, licks, or riffs! I think Brian is a much more talented guitarist(I'm not being biased) Although, Jimmy's a better producer and more influential.
That is the 64 thousand dollar question about guitarists. Who is better???
I'd say that Jimmy Page is overall a more talented guitar player in that he can do things Brian(and others) simply cannot. He is more blues based, but is also a far superior riff master. That being said, only the late Steve Clark of Def Leppard compares, in my opinion, with Page when it comes to guitar riffs. For those two, it's a natural gift for them to lay down classic riffs, as if it takes little or no effort at all. As for soloing, Jimmy can break out something natural and spontaneous, while Brian is more of an architect, perfecting his solos in the studio until they are just right.
That being said, Brian is, in my opinion, the better(and furthermore greatest) guitarist. The reason why is simple... THE RED SPECIAL!!! Jimmy can play guitar to it's utmost perfection, and it won't compare because the creation will be some Les Paul/Acoustic/etc. designed work, where as Brian's creations share a common sound that he invented himself(along with his father's help and the occasional help of John Decaon's infamous 'Deacy Amp'. The Red Special sound defines Queen, and buries all other guitarists by it's sheer brilliance.
So basically, Jimmy Page is Sir Lancelot, but Brian is King Arthur, not quite as good a fighter, but the fact that he holds Excalibur makes him number one!
I'd say that Jimmy Page is overall a more talented guitar player in that he can do things Brian(and others) simply cannot. He is more blues based, but is also a far superior riff master. That being said, only the late Steve Clark of Def Leppard compares, in my opinion, with Page when it comes to guitar riffs. For those two, it's a natural gift for them to lay down classic riffs, as if it takes little or no effort at all. As for soloing, Jimmy can break out something natural and spontaneous, while Brian is more of an architect, perfecting his solos in the studio until they are just right.
That being said, Brian is, in my opinion, the better(and furthermore greatest) guitarist. The reason why is simple... THE RED SPECIAL!!! Jimmy can play guitar to it's utmost perfection, and it won't compare because the creation will be some Les Paul/Acoustic/etc. designed work, where as Brian's creations share a common sound that he invented himself(along with his father's help and the occasional help of John Decaon's infamous 'Deacy Amp'. The Red Special sound defines Queen, and buries all other guitarists by it's sheer brilliance.
So basically, Jimmy Page is Sir Lancelot, but Brian is King Arthur, not quite as good a fighter, but the fact that he holds Excalibur makes him number one!
queen fans tend to overate the red special just a little. I think what made brian a great guitar player is the guitarist himself, and His own creativity in his playing, but the guitar sound is also nice.
"The Red Special sound defines Queen, and buries all other guitarists by it's sheer brilliance. "
That's not a very worldly view. Go out and listen to some music.
That's not a very worldly view. Go out and listen to some music.
> Page is one of the all-time great riff writers
And the all-time ultimate riff thief.
> but even in his prime he was never better than Brian May.
It's an everlasting discussion, which may have several different outcomes. Page improvised much better, but Brian knew that there are more scales besides pentatonic. As an all-round musician, Jimmy of course was much much much more influential and a much much much more everlasting figure, yet Brian was much much much better imo. Compare Brian's enviable skill as singer or pianist against Jimmy's nice-but-not-special abilities as bassist or mandolin player.
> Brian May's stuff on the other hand...listen to Good Company, Brighton Rock, and the Prophet's Song, and at least another 6 or 7 songs;
None of those songs have complex guitar parts. Except perhaps 'Brighton Rock' at the end... but there, especially in 'Good Company' and 'Prophet's Song', Brian demonstrated he's much better as arranger and composer than as guitarist.
> Another thing about Page - he was always messy, true enough, but the guy is a foundation in modern guitar playing.
Indeed. Many years ago I was addicted to Led Zeppelin and I thought Page was a God with a guitar in his hands. Then I realised he was human as well, and one with an enviable knack for sloppiness.
> That being said, Brian is, in my opinion, the better(and furthermore greatest) guitarist. The reason why is simple... THE RED SPECIAL!!!
That's not related to his ability as guitarist. He's a good luthier indeed, but it doesn't mean he's a better player ... otherwise anyone who makes football socks is better player than Duncan Edwards or George Best.
> queen fans tend to overate the red special just a little. I think what made brian a great guitar player is the guitarist himself, and His own creativity in his playing, but the guitar sound is also nice.
Indeed. Brian's brilliant sound comes from himself, not the guitar, the amp or the sixpence.
And the all-time ultimate riff thief.
> but even in his prime he was never better than Brian May.
It's an everlasting discussion, which may have several different outcomes. Page improvised much better, but Brian knew that there are more scales besides pentatonic. As an all-round musician, Jimmy of course was much much much more influential and a much much much more everlasting figure, yet Brian was much much much better imo. Compare Brian's enviable skill as singer or pianist against Jimmy's nice-but-not-special abilities as bassist or mandolin player.
> Brian May's stuff on the other hand...listen to Good Company, Brighton Rock, and the Prophet's Song, and at least another 6 or 7 songs;
None of those songs have complex guitar parts. Except perhaps 'Brighton Rock' at the end... but there, especially in 'Good Company' and 'Prophet's Song', Brian demonstrated he's much better as arranger and composer than as guitarist.
> Another thing about Page - he was always messy, true enough, but the guy is a foundation in modern guitar playing.
Indeed. Many years ago I was addicted to Led Zeppelin and I thought Page was a God with a guitar in his hands. Then I realised he was human as well, and one with an enviable knack for sloppiness.
> That being said, Brian is, in my opinion, the better(and furthermore greatest) guitarist. The reason why is simple... THE RED SPECIAL!!!
That's not related to his ability as guitarist. He's a good luthier indeed, but it doesn't mean he's a better player ... otherwise anyone who makes football socks is better player than Duncan Edwards or George Best.
> queen fans tend to overate the red special just a little. I think what made brian a great guitar player is the guitarist himself, and His own creativity in his playing, but the guitar sound is also nice.
Indeed. Brian's brilliant sound comes from himself, not the guitar, the amp or the sixpence.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Zebonka12 wrote: [/QUOTENAME]"The Red Special sound defines Queen, and buries all other guitarists by it's sheer brilliance. "
That's not a very worldly view. Go out and listen to some music.[/QUOTE]
I have listened to a 32 year old's portion of music and then some. And if you can please tell me of one instrument, just one, in all existance that sounds anything like the Red Special, well then I'm all ears.
Queen + Jimmy Page, meaning in another world where Brian died and it is Freddie and Roger who carry on with the replacement guitarist being someone like Jimmy Page(anyone will do), for me, would be a worst scenario than the present because that sound is #1 for me of all Queen's sound elements. That's what I love about them most.
Not that Freddie's voice isn't impossible to equal as well, it's just that Brian's unique, and I stress, UNIQUE, sound is tops!
That being said, if not for Deacon, the Deacy amp wouldn't exist and Brian's sound would be about 2 3rds of what it is.
That's not a very worldly view. Go out and listen to some music.[/QUOTE]
I have listened to a 32 year old's portion of music and then some. And if you can please tell me of one instrument, just one, in all existance that sounds anything like the Red Special, well then I'm all ears.
Queen + Jimmy Page, meaning in another world where Brian died and it is Freddie and Roger who carry on with the replacement guitarist being someone like Jimmy Page(anyone will do), for me, would be a worst scenario than the present because that sound is #1 for me of all Queen's sound elements. That's what I love about them most.
Not that Freddie's voice isn't impossible to equal as well, it's just that Brian's unique, and I stress, UNIQUE, sound is tops!
That being said, if not for Deacon, the Deacy amp wouldn't exist and Brian's sound would be about 2 3rds of what it is.
"And if you can please tell me of one instrument, just one, in all existance that sounds anything like the Red Special, well then I'm all ears. "
I've always had a fondness for Danelectro!
For twangy sounds, I suppose one might chase up Rickenbacker or Gretsch... one would really have to poke around a while. I suppose we've got to take into account that the Red Special is a contemporary of these brands - though Brian obviously had a clear concept in his head of the sound he was after, it was some years before it was even remotely achievable.
The thing I like about the Red Special is that it seems to incorporate features of such a range of instruments, perhaps by accident? (Not just Gibson and Fender as one usually says, but indeed the twangier sounds of Gretsch and so forth).
"I have listened to a 32 year old's portion of music and then some."
Your age is irrelevant in this discussion. Bill O'Reilly is older than both of us put together but I'll wager he'd be less useful on this topic. The problem here is you're rendering piffle an entire world of guitar playing just because of one person. And I rather think that Brian May, the person in question, would *laugh in your face* if he heard about it! Haha.
"Indeed. Brian's brilliant sound comes from himself, not the guitar, the amp or the sixpence."
I tried saying that in a thread about the Digitech Pedal and they shat on me for it! It's a view I stand by though.
I've always had a fondness for Danelectro!
For twangy sounds, I suppose one might chase up Rickenbacker or Gretsch... one would really have to poke around a while. I suppose we've got to take into account that the Red Special is a contemporary of these brands - though Brian obviously had a clear concept in his head of the sound he was after, it was some years before it was even remotely achievable.
The thing I like about the Red Special is that it seems to incorporate features of such a range of instruments, perhaps by accident? (Not just Gibson and Fender as one usually says, but indeed the twangier sounds of Gretsch and so forth).
"I have listened to a 32 year old's portion of music and then some."
Your age is irrelevant in this discussion. Bill O'Reilly is older than both of us put together but I'll wager he'd be less useful on this topic. The problem here is you're rendering piffle an entire world of guitar playing just because of one person. And I rather think that Brian May, the person in question, would *laugh in your face* if he heard about it! Haha.
"Indeed. Brian's brilliant sound comes from himself, not the guitar, the amp or the sixpence."
I tried saying that in a thread about the Digitech Pedal and they shat on me for it! It's a view I stand by though.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Zebonka12 wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Another thing about Page - he was always messy, true enough, but the guy is a foundation in modern guitar playing. A lot of young dudes would've learned his stuff in order to get better.... it's like singling out someone in our evolutionary chain and taking a piss on him because he didn't have a mobile phone![/QUOTE]
That's an excellent analogy.
As for the Brian vs. Jimmy debate, I definitely choose Brian, because overall, he's the superior musician. Page is a better producer for sure. Compare LZ II to any other album from '69 (except Abbey Road) and nothing comes close in the quality of sound and production. But Brian is a far better arranger, he has a much more unique style of playing, and he never ripped anyone off to the extent Page has, many times.
That's an excellent analogy.
As for the Brian vs. Jimmy debate, I definitely choose Brian, because overall, he's the superior musician. Page is a better producer for sure. Compare LZ II to any other album from '69 (except Abbey Road) and nothing comes close in the quality of sound and production. But Brian is a far better arranger, he has a much more unique style of playing, and he never ripped anyone off to the extent Page has, many times.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]redspecial85 wrote: [/QUOTENAME]I can't elaborate enough on how many arguments I've had with people over this. Okay...Page had an influence on Brian...but mind you he was just an influence. Page is one of the all-time great riff writers, but even in his prime he was never better than Brian May. Jimmy Page in my opinion was a damn good guitarist...but, as other people have already stated; the drugs killed his songwriting and playing ability. I've never been that big of a Jimmy Page fan...because I've heard a lot of very similar riffs played by old bluesmen like Son House, Blind Lemon Jefferson, Robert Johnson, etc...his style was unique however because he fused british blues and rock 'n roll with middle eastern modes. None of his stuff was ever all that complex. Brian May's stuff on the other hand...listen to Good Company, Brighton Rock, and the Prophet's Song, and at least another 6 or 7 songs; and clearly Brian again puts Jimmy to shame. I like Jimmy Page's style and playing...however I feel he is so grossly overrated for his musicianship. People are stupid enough to confuse a guitarist's influence with their talent. The two greatest talents in Led Zeppelin were John Bonham and John Paul Jones. Jimmy Page and Robert Plant comprise one of the greatest songwriting teams of all time, but that doesn't automatically dub them the most talented people in the group. When it comes to really saying who the better guitarist is...or even getting bigger than that and comparing Zeppelin to Queen; its like comparing apples and oranges. Its impossible and an absolute waste of time to compare the two.[/QUOTE]
Though I think I like Page more than you say here, I totally agree that had Zeppelin was so much more than Jimmy Page. Had Page not been lucky enough to meet up with John Paul Jones, Robert Plant and John Bonham, he would have relegated to Jeff Beck's career. I am NOT criticizing Beck, just trying to point out that simply being a talented guitartist alone gets you no where. If you don't hit that magic combination of people in a band, well, again look at Jeff Beck. He is an AMAZING guitarist, but so few people, outside the general guitar playing community, seem to realize it. What if he had started a band with Jones/Plant/Bonham? Clapton/Beck/Page will always be the Holy Trinity, but for a slight twist of fate, Page would probably not be as well known and respected as he is now.
Though I think I like Page more than you say here, I totally agree that had Zeppelin was so much more than Jimmy Page. Had Page not been lucky enough to meet up with John Paul Jones, Robert Plant and John Bonham, he would have relegated to Jeff Beck's career. I am NOT criticizing Beck, just trying to point out that simply being a talented guitartist alone gets you no where. If you don't hit that magic combination of people in a band, well, again look at Jeff Beck. He is an AMAZING guitarist, but so few people, outside the general guitar playing community, seem to realize it. What if he had started a band with Jones/Plant/Bonham? Clapton/Beck/Page will always be the Holy Trinity, but for a slight twist of fate, Page would probably not be as well known and respected as he is now.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]quicksilver mercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME]MatiaMay think he are sooo good to insult great Jimmy Page but MatiasMay not so good on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qXY50Ml8Y0[/QUOTE]
I really disagree with MatiaMay's opinion of Jimmy Page and his abilities, but I have to admit I thought his playing on "Bijou" was pretty good here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qXY50Ml8Y0[/QUOTE]
I really disagree with MatiaMay's opinion of Jimmy Page and his abilities, but I have to admit I thought his playing on "Bijou" was pretty good here.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Bob-Plant wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]redspecial85 wrote: [/QUOTENAME]I can't elaborate enough on how many arguments I've had with people over this. Okay...Page had an influence on Brian...but mind you he was just an influence. Page is one of the all-time great riff writers, but even in his prime he was never better than Brian May. Jimmy Page in my opinion was a damn good guitarist...but, as other people have already stated; the drugs killed his songwriting and playing ability. I've never been that big of a Jimmy Page fan...because I've heard a lot of very similar riffs played by old bluesmen like Son House, Blind Lemon Jefferson, Robert Johnson, etc...his style was unique however because he fused british blues and rock 'n roll with middle eastern modes. None of his stuff was ever all that complex. Brian May's stuff on the other hand...listen to Good Company, Brighton Rock, and the Prophet's Song, and at least another 6 or 7 songs; and clearly Brian again puts Jimmy to shame. I like Jimmy Page's style and playing...however I feel he is so grossly overrated for his musicianship. People are stupid enough to confuse a guitarist's influence with their talent. The two greatest talents in Led Zeppelin were John Bonham and John Paul Jones. Jimmy Page and Robert Plant comprise one of the greatest songwriting teams of all time, but that doesn't automatically dub them the most talented people in the group. When it comes to really saying who the better guitarist is...or even getting bigger than that and comparing Zeppelin to Queen; its like comparing apples and oranges. Its impossible and an absolute waste of time to compare the two.[/QUOTE]
Though I think I like Page more than you say here, I totally agree that had Zeppelin was so much more than Jimmy Page. Had Page not been lucky enough to meet up with John Paul Jones, Robert Plant and John Bonham, he would have relegated to Jeff Beck's career. I am NOT criticizing Beck, just trying to point out that simply being a talented guitartist alone gets you no where. If you don't hit that magic combination of people in a band, well, again look at Jeff Beck. He is an AMAZING guitarist, but so few people, outside the general guitar playing community, seem to realize it. What if he had started a band with Jones/Plant/Bonham? Clapton/Beck/Page will always be the Holy Trinity, but for a slight twist of fate, Page would probably not be as well known and respected as he is now.[/QUOTE]
Beck is kind of like the Holy Spirit. He's there, but nobody really has any idea what the heck for.
Though I think I like Page more than you say here, I totally agree that had Zeppelin was so much more than Jimmy Page. Had Page not been lucky enough to meet up with John Paul Jones, Robert Plant and John Bonham, he would have relegated to Jeff Beck's career. I am NOT criticizing Beck, just trying to point out that simply being a talented guitartist alone gets you no where. If you don't hit that magic combination of people in a band, well, again look at Jeff Beck. He is an AMAZING guitarist, but so few people, outside the general guitar playing community, seem to realize it. What if he had started a band with Jones/Plant/Bonham? Clapton/Beck/Page will always be the Holy Trinity, but for a slight twist of fate, Page would probably not be as well known and respected as he is now.[/QUOTE]
Beck is kind of like the Holy Spirit. He's there, but nobody really has any idea what the heck for.
Jeff Beck is constantly on top, or near the top of the list of "guitarist's guitarist." However, Brian May and Jimmy Page have played on countless more great songs than Jeff Beck. I find their writing more emotionally involving than Beck's, and whether they're as technically proficient or flash, their playing on more, better songs gives them something that Beck's scattershot catalogue can't stand up to.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Bob-Plant wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]quicksilver mercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME]MatiaMay think he are sooo good to insult great Jimmy Page but MatiasMay not so good on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qXY50Ml8Y0[/QUOTE]
I really disagree with MatiaMay's opinion of Jimmy Page and his abilities, but I have to admit I thought his playing on "Bijou" was pretty good here.[/QUOTE]
Really?? I thought it was atonal at times.... but someone told me he's better now, and I trust them implicitly!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qXY50Ml8Y0[/QUOTE]
I really disagree with MatiaMay's opinion of Jimmy Page and his abilities, but I have to admit I thought his playing on "Bijou" was pretty good here.[/QUOTE]
Really?? I thought it was atonal at times.... but someone told me he's better now, and I trust them implicitly!
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Zebonka12 wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Bob-Plant wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]quicksilver mercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME]MatiaMay think he are sooo good to insult great Jimmy Page but MatiasMay not so good on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qXY50Ml8Y0[/QUOTE]
I really disagree with MatiaMay's opinion of Jimmy Page and his abilities, but I have to admit I thought his playing on "Bijou" was pretty good here.[/QUOTE]
Really?? I thought it was atonal at times.... but someone told me he's better now, and I trust them implicitly![/QUOTE]
Well, I can't play for sh*t, so I guess anything close is good to me :) Sadly, my singing is even worse...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qXY50Ml8Y0[/QUOTE]
I really disagree with MatiaMay's opinion of Jimmy Page and his abilities, but I have to admit I thought his playing on "Bijou" was pretty good here.[/QUOTE]
Really?? I thought it was atonal at times.... but someone told me he's better now, and I trust them implicitly![/QUOTE]
Well, I can't play for sh*t, so I guess anything close is good to me :) Sadly, my singing is even worse...