[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME]I think a big misconception about gun violence in the United States is that it is evenly spread throughout the nation. Rather, it is heavily concentrated in inner-city areas, that are populated by the indigent. These people do not receive proper educations, and face tougher living conditions. Surely, the United States has a far larger inner-city population than the rest of the world (for instance, Holland).[/QUOTE]
So, in other words, we need to look at the roots of crime, and by extension, the roots of poverty. That will probably never happen, because it is still conventional to blame the poor for being poor, and leaving it at that.
[/QUOTE]
Exactly! For the life of me, I cannot believe how many superficial, ineffective policies and movements have resulted from people trying to solve inequality, such as affirmative action and race quotas (essentially the same thing, regardless what people will tell you). We also need to focus on helping poor people. Not black people. Not Hispanic people. POOR people.
I also disagree with a welfare state. There should be a minimal amount of welfare, but I think that the option of getting a job should always be more appealing than the option of staying on welfare. Unfortunately, this is not the case. We need to find out how to give people opportunity - not cash. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know how, but what I do know is that most of the current policies are either bullshit or countereffective.
Thread
Posts in chronological order
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Boy Thomas Raker wrote: [/QUOTENAME]For most people who have posted their opinions here, the bottom line appears to be having 32 innocent people murdered is unacceptable. Microwave, your POV seems to be that since processes appear to have been followed, that means the system continues to work as intended so you feel you're right about the debate.
A few years back, an NFL player died during summer practice in 100+ degree temperatures. The NFL and the Players Association implemented changes to monitor players better during times of intense heat, even though "only" one player died. In the aftermath of 9/11, broad changes were implemented to the freedoms Americans and travelers to America had, even though it was one day of attacks and "only" 3000 people died. My point is not to belittle or diminish anyone's death, but Microwave is far from being alone in his convictions that all is well with the distribution of guns in the US. One death caused great changes in a pro sports league since they deemed one death to one too many. Three thousand deaths changed life in America forever, as the government felt one day of terror was one too many. But since September 2001, statistics indicate roughly 45,000 Americans have been murdered with guns. Personally, I can't see anyone thinking that number is anything close to acceptable.[/QUOTE]
Having anyone die is unacceptable. No one welcomes or enjoys it. However, that does not mean that we should act on them. Hell, having thirty-two people sucks - a lot. But when we use that to justify legislative changes, we are throwing objectivity right out the window. Our emotional responses are great and all, but they are never a good foundation for rational decision-making. Take the Iraq war, for example. The USA PATRIOT Act.
An objective assessment of aggregate gun violence is one thing. Using isolated events is just stupid.
A few years back, an NFL player died during summer practice in 100+ degree temperatures. The NFL and the Players Association implemented changes to monitor players better during times of intense heat, even though "only" one player died. In the aftermath of 9/11, broad changes were implemented to the freedoms Americans and travelers to America had, even though it was one day of attacks and "only" 3000 people died. My point is not to belittle or diminish anyone's death, but Microwave is far from being alone in his convictions that all is well with the distribution of guns in the US. One death caused great changes in a pro sports league since they deemed one death to one too many. Three thousand deaths changed life in America forever, as the government felt one day of terror was one too many. But since September 2001, statistics indicate roughly 45,000 Americans have been murdered with guns. Personally, I can't see anyone thinking that number is anything close to acceptable.[/QUOTE]
Having anyone die is unacceptable. No one welcomes or enjoys it. However, that does not mean that we should act on them. Hell, having thirty-two people sucks - a lot. But when we use that to justify legislative changes, we are throwing objectivity right out the window. Our emotional responses are great and all, but they are never a good foundation for rational decision-making. Take the Iraq war, for example. The USA PATRIOT Act.
An objective assessment of aggregate gun violence is one thing. Using isolated events is just stupid.
To that end.....regarding preventable deaths, I think I brought this up earlier in the week, so it struck me as funny today...especially in regards to the knee jerk reactions of some folks.
Traffic Deaths a Global Scourge, Health Agency Says
By David Brown
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, April 20, 2007; A09
Traffic injuries are the leading cause of death in people ages 10 to 24 around the world -- a huge, overlooked and largely preventable public health problem, the World Health Organization said yesterday.
In a new report, the organization promoted a long list of suggestions to developing countries, where most of the deaths and disabling injuries occur. The improvements include safer roads and vehicles, better urban planning, helmet laws, prosecution of speeders and drunken drivers, better education of the driving and walking public, and simple interventions such as putting reflective tape on backpacks.
"It is a big public health issue for kids, and we can do something about it," said Etienne Krug, a physician who heads WHO's department for injury and violence prevention.
As does most of the public health world, WHO eschews the term "traffic accidents." In a statement accompanying the report, the organization's new director-general, Margaret Chan, said that "road traffic crashes are not 'accidents.' We need to challenge the notion that they are unavoidable."
About 30 percent of all traffic deaths worldwide -- roughly 400,000 each year -- are of people younger than 25. Although teenage and young-adult drivers are at greatest risk, younger age groups also have high mortality. In 2002, traffic injuries were the third leading cause of death for children ages 5 to 9, behind pneumonia and AIDS. About 46 percent of traffic deaths in sub-Saharan Africa occurred in that age group that year.
"Vulnerable road users" -- pedestrians, motorcyclists, bicyclists, and public transit riders -- account for a much higher fraction of youthful traffic fatalities in low-income countries than in rich ones. But even within that generalization there are big differences. In Mozambique, about 65 percent of road injuries and deaths involved pedestrians. In Cambodia, about 75 percent were motorcyclists.
For all countries, the annual cost of road injuries in medical care, disability and property damage is $518 billion, according to the report. In low- and middle-income countries, the cost is larger than the amount received from rich countries as development aid.
"It is a very big economic problem, a very big development problem. It kills breadwinners and throws entire families into poverty," Krug said.
WHO is asking the World Bank and other institutions making loans for road building in the developing world to require that 10 percent of the money go for safety features, such as guardrails, barrier-protected lanes for bicyclists or pedestrians, speed bumps, traffic- calming roundabouts and lighting.
The authors of the report also said towns need to plan for the consequences of better roads. Dirt roads carrying slow traffic are often used as playgrounds. When the roads are tarred, children need other places to play, Krug said.
Many developing countries are addressing the problem. An African Road Safety Conference was recently held in Ghana, with 200 people attending. South Africa has a program called "Drive Alive," whose activities include everything from consciousness-raising about safe driving to distributing reflective backpacks to school children.
The report was accompanied by a second publication, which described 31 people killed or hurt in crashes around the world. It consisted of interviews with those injured and with family members of those killed.
The collection of those stories, called "Faces Behind the Figures," was produced with the help of Rochelle Sobel, of Potomac, whose son Aron, 25, was killed in a bus crash in Turkey i
Traffic Deaths a Global Scourge, Health Agency Says
By David Brown
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, April 20, 2007; A09
Traffic injuries are the leading cause of death in people ages 10 to 24 around the world -- a huge, overlooked and largely preventable public health problem, the World Health Organization said yesterday.
In a new report, the organization promoted a long list of suggestions to developing countries, where most of the deaths and disabling injuries occur. The improvements include safer roads and vehicles, better urban planning, helmet laws, prosecution of speeders and drunken drivers, better education of the driving and walking public, and simple interventions such as putting reflective tape on backpacks.
"It is a big public health issue for kids, and we can do something about it," said Etienne Krug, a physician who heads WHO's department for injury and violence prevention.
As does most of the public health world, WHO eschews the term "traffic accidents." In a statement accompanying the report, the organization's new director-general, Margaret Chan, said that "road traffic crashes are not 'accidents.' We need to challenge the notion that they are unavoidable."
About 30 percent of all traffic deaths worldwide -- roughly 400,000 each year -- are of people younger than 25. Although teenage and young-adult drivers are at greatest risk, younger age groups also have high mortality. In 2002, traffic injuries were the third leading cause of death for children ages 5 to 9, behind pneumonia and AIDS. About 46 percent of traffic deaths in sub-Saharan Africa occurred in that age group that year.
"Vulnerable road users" -- pedestrians, motorcyclists, bicyclists, and public transit riders -- account for a much higher fraction of youthful traffic fatalities in low-income countries than in rich ones. But even within that generalization there are big differences. In Mozambique, about 65 percent of road injuries and deaths involved pedestrians. In Cambodia, about 75 percent were motorcyclists.
For all countries, the annual cost of road injuries in medical care, disability and property damage is $518 billion, according to the report. In low- and middle-income countries, the cost is larger than the amount received from rich countries as development aid.
"It is a very big economic problem, a very big development problem. It kills breadwinners and throws entire families into poverty," Krug said.
WHO is asking the World Bank and other institutions making loans for road building in the developing world to require that 10 percent of the money go for safety features, such as guardrails, barrier-protected lanes for bicyclists or pedestrians, speed bumps, traffic- calming roundabouts and lighting.
The authors of the report also said towns need to plan for the consequences of better roads. Dirt roads carrying slow traffic are often used as playgrounds. When the roads are tarred, children need other places to play, Krug said.
Many developing countries are addressing the problem. An African Road Safety Conference was recently held in Ghana, with 200 people attending. South Africa has a program called "Drive Alive," whose activities include everything from consciousness-raising about safe driving to distributing reflective backpacks to school children.
The report was accompanied by a second publication, which described 31 people killed or hurt in crashes around the world. It consisted of interviews with those injured and with family members of those killed.
The collection of those stories, called "Faces Behind the Figures," was produced with the help of Rochelle Sobel, of Potomac, whose son Aron, 25, was killed in a bus crash in Turkey i
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sparrow wrote: [/QUOTENAME]the racism is on the rise again as well. about a year ago (or was it 2?) there was a native american boy who shot 4 kids and i believe 1 teacher. they emphasized the fact that he was native american. im surprised noone has gone around like now, saying 'all native americans must be terrorists' but since the media has constantly shown Cho, they emphasized that he was asian. im hearing form different people and friends that they are now being called terrorists because theyre asian. its stupid. at columbine, the boys who caused it were white, but noone claimed that all white people must be killers, right?[/QUOTE]
Good observation. Let's move from race to religion. Recently I pointed out here that they always emphasize when terrorism is Islamic terrorism. But in Oklahoma City in '95, Timothy McVeigh was the member of a Christian doomsday cult... but the media was very quick to cover that one up, all because they're trying to protect Christianity. To this day you will find few sources that will mention this. In other words, the media did a good job.
[/QUOTE]
yep, its the same thing.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sparrow wrote: [/QUOTENAME]the racism is on the rise again as well. about a year ago (or was it 2?) there was a native american boy who shot 4 kids and i believe 1 teacher. they emphasized the fact that he was native american. im surprised noone has gone around like now, saying 'all native americans must be terrorists' but since the media has constantly shown Cho, they emphasized that he was asian. im hearing form different people and friends that they are now being called terrorists because theyre asian. its stupid. at columbine, the boys who caused it were white, but noone claimed that all white people must be killers, right?[/QUOTE]
Good observation. Let's move from race to religion. Recently I pointed out here that they always emphasize when terrorism is Islamic terrorism. But in Oklahoma City in '95, Timothy McVeigh was the member of a Christian doomsday cult... but the media was very quick to cover that one up, all because they're trying to protect Christianity. To this day you will find few sources that will mention this. In other words, the media did a good job.
[/QUOTE]
yep, its the same thing.
You are right about traffic casualties being avoidable and a lot is done to prevent injuries and deaths. Cars have security brakes, air bags and other saftey devices, more mandatory security checks must be performed, young people have driving restrictions, speed limits are implemented, no-traffic zones in inner cities and near schools etc are increased. As a result traffic casualties are getting less each year. It's exactly right: problems like that must be addressed and steps must be taken to minimize the problem. Gun control could be one step to have less homicides.
We do have gun control, like it or not. What some folks are calling for is not control.....
All goes back to, in this case, who do you blame? The crazy idiot, or a gun?
Also, the vast majority of gun murders in the US are committed by people with a previous criminal record.
"Looking only to official criminal records, data over the past thirty years consistently show that the mythology of murderers as ordinary citizens does not hold true. Studies have found that approximately 75% of murderers have adult criminal records, and that murderers average a prior adult criminal career of six years, including four major adult felony arrests. These studies also found that when the murder occurred "about 11% of murder arrestees were actually on pre-trial release" -- that is, they were awaiting trial for another offense."
"The fact that only 75% of murderers have adult crime records should not be misunderstood as implying that the remaining 25% of murderers are non-criminals. The reason over half of those 25% of murderers don't have adult records is that they are juveniles. Thus, by definition they cannot have an adult criminal record."
Sources cited by the above excerpt:
An FBI data run of murder arrestees nationally over a four year period in the 1960s found 74.7% to have had prior arrests for violent felony or burglary. In one study, the Bureau of Criminal Statistics found that 76.7% of murder arrestees had criminal histories as did 78% of defendants in murder prosecutions nationally. In another FBI data run of murder arrestees over a one year period, 77.9% had prior criminal records [Guncite note: 50.1% had prior convictions (Kleck and Bordua at p. 293)]. Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Rep. 38 (1971).
The annual Chicago Police Department bulletin Murder Analysis shows the following figures for the percentage of murderers who had prior crime records:
1991: 77.15%
1990: 74.63%
1989: 74.22%
1988: 73.59%
1987: 73.81%
Five year average for 1987-1991: 74.68%
According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -
-a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
-a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
-family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%
If super strict gun control laws have any effect in the US, it may be to increase crime. For instance:
New Jersey adopted what sponsors described as "the most stringent gun law" in the nation in 1966; two years later, the murder rate was up 46 percent and the reported robbery rate had nearly doubled.
In 1968, Hawaii imposed a series of increasingly harsh measures and its murder rate, then a low 2.4 per 100,000 per year, tripled to 7.2 by 1977.
In 1976, Washington, D.C., enacted one of the most restrictive gun control laws in the nation. Since then, the city's murder rate has risen 134 percent while the national murder rate has dropped 2 percent.
All goes back to, in this case, who do you blame? The crazy idiot, or a gun?
Also, the vast majority of gun murders in the US are committed by people with a previous criminal record.
"Looking only to official criminal records, data over the past thirty years consistently show that the mythology of murderers as ordinary citizens does not hold true. Studies have found that approximately 75% of murderers have adult criminal records, and that murderers average a prior adult criminal career of six years, including four major adult felony arrests. These studies also found that when the murder occurred "about 11% of murder arrestees were actually on pre-trial release" -- that is, they were awaiting trial for another offense."
"The fact that only 75% of murderers have adult crime records should not be misunderstood as implying that the remaining 25% of murderers are non-criminals. The reason over half of those 25% of murderers don't have adult records is that they are juveniles. Thus, by definition they cannot have an adult criminal record."
Sources cited by the above excerpt:
An FBI data run of murder arrestees nationally over a four year period in the 1960s found 74.7% to have had prior arrests for violent felony or burglary. In one study, the Bureau of Criminal Statistics found that 76.7% of murder arrestees had criminal histories as did 78% of defendants in murder prosecutions nationally. In another FBI data run of murder arrestees over a one year period, 77.9% had prior criminal records [Guncite note: 50.1% had prior convictions (Kleck and Bordua at p. 293)]. Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Rep. 38 (1971).
The annual Chicago Police Department bulletin Murder Analysis shows the following figures for the percentage of murderers who had prior crime records:
1991: 77.15%
1990: 74.63%
1989: 74.22%
1988: 73.59%
1987: 73.81%
Five year average for 1987-1991: 74.68%
According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -
-a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
-a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
-family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%
If super strict gun control laws have any effect in the US, it may be to increase crime. For instance:
New Jersey adopted what sponsors described as "the most stringent gun law" in the nation in 1966; two years later, the murder rate was up 46 percent and the reported robbery rate had nearly doubled.
In 1968, Hawaii imposed a series of increasingly harsh measures and its murder rate, then a low 2.4 per 100,000 per year, tripled to 7.2 by 1977.
In 1976, Washington, D.C., enacted one of the most restrictive gun control laws in the nation. Since then, the city's murder rate has risen 134 percent while the national murder rate has dropped 2 percent.
You missed my point Music Man. I'm not using 32 deaths to state a case for gun control. First off, and I think this is important, is that this is nothing but a discussion. I don't live in the US, so I have no input or right to state how anybody should live. In Canada, as discussed, there's been a stringent crackdown on smoking on we're very same sex positive compared to the US. If this discussion were about Canadian laws, I'd be totally open to hearing what a Dutchman or American think, but ultimately, as I do in this discussion, their thoughts are meaningless as laws are made with citizens, not posters on a music groups site, in mind.
Soooo, based on statistics compiled by American government offices, (links I've previously posted, I'm not going back to find them again) which make them YOUR government stats, and not stats from QZ'ers Against America, on average, 8,500 Americans are murdered with guns each year. That is a staggering amount of deaths compared to countries such as England, Japan, Australia etc. I guess for the life of me, I just don't understand how the gun lobby in the US accepts 8,500 deaths per year, especially when they say its about protecting their liberties, when I'd argue that post 9-11 Americans liberties are no greater or no worse than the countries I've used as point of comparison. As a matter of fact, I'd say the only freedoms you have as Americans that we don't is ease of gun ownership. On the flip side, the freeedoms we have are freedom to live exponentially freer and safer lives due to our gun laws.
Soooo, based on statistics compiled by American government offices, (links I've previously posted, I'm not going back to find them again) which make them YOUR government stats, and not stats from QZ'ers Against America, on average, 8,500 Americans are murdered with guns each year. That is a staggering amount of deaths compared to countries such as England, Japan, Australia etc. I guess for the life of me, I just don't understand how the gun lobby in the US accepts 8,500 deaths per year, especially when they say its about protecting their liberties, when I'd argue that post 9-11 Americans liberties are no greater or no worse than the countries I've used as point of comparison. As a matter of fact, I'd say the only freedoms you have as Americans that we don't is ease of gun ownership. On the flip side, the freeedoms we have are freedom to live exponentially freer and safer lives due to our gun laws.
This is like a weird discussion that keeps moving all around with crazy shit that isn't even half-true getting brought up to avoid the issue. If someone isn't saying that cars are as dangerous, it's that America is way safer than the wild, wild west of Russia (like that's omething to be proud of) with ridiculous stats to back it up. Now Haystacks implies that "we do have gun control, like it or not. What some folks are calling for is not control." Umm, not on this board Dude. This has been one of the more intelligent discussions on QZ in a long time, and no one is implying (here at least) that the US ban guns at all. The overwhelming sentiment is that there needs to be a serious dialogue in the US about a product that kills 8,000+ American citizens each year. Some Americans agree, some disagree which is great as life would be boring if we all felt the same as each other.
To recap for people scoring at home unable to wade through 11 pages of insanity, here is the list of issues in order of blame for the violence in American society.
1) Televisions (exploding product)
2) Television (watching of)
3) Automobiles
4) Abortion
5) Korean parents who push too hard
6) Hip hop
7) Sunflower seeds
8) Condoms
9) (maybe) Guns
To recap for people scoring at home unable to wade through 11 pages of insanity, here is the list of issues in order of blame for the violence in American society.
1) Televisions (exploding product)
2) Television (watching of)
3) Automobiles
4) Abortion
5) Korean parents who push too hard
6) Hip hop
7) Sunflower seeds
8) Condoms
9) (maybe) Guns
I don't think anyone here uses a single murder or massacre as a justification for change.... I think the hundreds of thousands of victims around the world over the past few years would be justification enough!! Heh.
I only see this business in Virginia as a reminder of existing problems, not a sole reason to shake things up.
I only see this business in Virginia as a reminder of existing problems, not a sole reason to shake things up.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Haystacks Calhounski wrote: [/QUOTENAME]We do have gun control, like it or not. What some folks are calling for is not control.....
All goes back to, in this case, who do you blame? The crazy idiot, or a gun? [/QUOTE]
I blame the idiot and the person who made the law so that he could get a gun.
You're a Queen-fan, right? "People get killed by people. People with GUNS".
All goes back to, in this case, who do you blame? The crazy idiot, or a gun? [/QUOTE]
I blame the idiot and the person who made the law so that he could get a gun.
You're a Queen-fan, right? "People get killed by people. People with GUNS".
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color = "crimson"> ThomasQuinn wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
I blame the idiot and the person who made the law so that he could get a gun. [/QUOTE]
Exactly. And it seems the person or people would be Virginia lawmakers.
From an Associated Press article:
Under federal law, Cho should have been barred from buying a gun, but wording differences with a Virginia law allowed him to legally get a weapon, a state law professor said.
"A person who has been found in a commitment proceeding to be a danger to himself and committed to out-patient care ... is disqualified from purchasing a firearm under federal law," Richard Bonnie, chairman of the Supreme Court of Virginia's Commission on Mental Health Law Reform, told Reuters.
But under state law, he said, the prohibition only appears to extend to people who have been committed to a hospital, which Cho was not.
As a result, his details would not have been captured by an FBI background check system used by gun sellers.
"It is not a new problem. It has been festering for many years," Bonnie said.
===
Not a new problem... which harks back to what Zebonka said so well...
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Zebonka12 wrote: [/QUOTENAME] I only see this business in Virginia as a reminder of existing problems, not a sole reason to shake things up. [/QUOTE]
I blame the idiot and the person who made the law so that he could get a gun. [/QUOTE]
Exactly. And it seems the person or people would be Virginia lawmakers.
From an Associated Press article:
Under federal law, Cho should have been barred from buying a gun, but wording differences with a Virginia law allowed him to legally get a weapon, a state law professor said.
"A person who has been found in a commitment proceeding to be a danger to himself and committed to out-patient care ... is disqualified from purchasing a firearm under federal law," Richard Bonnie, chairman of the Supreme Court of Virginia's Commission on Mental Health Law Reform, told Reuters.
But under state law, he said, the prohibition only appears to extend to people who have been committed to a hospital, which Cho was not.
As a result, his details would not have been captured by an FBI background check system used by gun sellers.
"It is not a new problem. It has been festering for many years," Bonnie said.
===
Not a new problem... which harks back to what Zebonka said so well...
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Zebonka12 wrote: [/QUOTENAME] I only see this business in Virginia as a reminder of existing problems, not a sole reason to shake things up. [/QUOTE]
My final say on all the excuses you (queenzoners) give criminals is this. Blaming the US for all the problems in the world seems to be a common theme here. You people will lie, make up stories, and shade the truth. The US powerful? No Europe just full of a bunch of “don’t look at me’s” and excuse makers.
When proof was given that the US doesn’t lead the world in homicides per capita:
LET’S SHADE THE TRUTH A LITTLE:
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]The Mir@cle wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Come on.. You want to compare the US to Russia? I don't know if you know the situation in Russia, but it's more like a third wold country to me. I didn't want the US to look like the bad guy. I just want to make your figures more reliable.[/QUOTE]
Well it is on the planet, so it should count. But you're right. Let's throw out all the "third world" countries and then the US is the unsafest place on the planet.
LET’S JUST FLAT OUT LIE:
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Boy Thomas Raker wrote: [/QUOTENAME]A few years back, an NFL player died during summer practice in 100+ degree temperatures. The NFL and the Players Association implemented changes to monitor players better during times of intense heat, even though "only" one player died.
One death caused great changes in a pro sports league since they deemed one death to one too many. [/QUOTE]
Exactly what changes were made when Corey Stringer died? No rules were implemented… the players association made suggestions and promised to be watching, but nothing was done and rules weren’t changed. and Mrs. Stringer still continues to appeal the Supreme Court to blame the NFL.
LET’S CONFUSE EM’:
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]CMU HistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
I could give you far more than 3 Microwave. But since you are limiting me from using anything connected to Iraq, I just used the first three that came into my head. I would now like to respond to your posts.
A) Any student of history knows that when you use torture to try and extract information, you get bad information, because people will say anything to stop the torture.
SO WE SHOULD DO ANYTHING AT ALL!!!
B) I never said the US was to blame for the mess in Palestine and Israel. I said we need to take responsibility for the fact that we haven't been helping. No one else is doing any better than we are, I will admit.
SO WE SHOULD SHOULDER ALL THE BLAME!!!
C) Yes, I do know what life was like for the South Koreans before we came in...my boyfriend taught in South Korea for more than a year and has informed me what it was like to live there and the things that they thought and going to the DMZ and things like that. What the US should take responsibility for is not getting the troops out sooner when they recognized the attacks weren't working.
SO WE DIDN'T ACT QUICK ENOUGH. REMEMBER NO INTERNET, BAD SATELLITES, SO WE WOULD HAVE "JUMPED THE GUN", HUH?
D) You need to review your geography. How is Britain, The Dutch, etc. closer to Darfur?
AFRICA IS CLOSER TO EUROPE IN MY ATLAS. PERHAPS YOUR IS MISTAKEN.
If the US is truly interested in the good of all people, it wouldn't sit around and wait for some other country to do good things before it acted.
SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT NO OTHER COUNTRY IS INTERESTED IN THE GOOD OF ALL PEOPLE EITHER THEN, SINCE THEY DON'T LIFT A HAND UNTIL WE DO.
The blatant racism, elitism, mis-use and un-preparadness of the government in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.
WHAT ABOUT THE CITY OFFICIALS? THEY DID NOTHING. YOU SAY RAY NAGIN. YOU SAW THE GOVERNOR. YOU SAW THEM DO NOTHING. IT WASN'T JUST THE GOVERNMENT, IT WAS EVERYBODY.
WHAT ABOUT THE BLACKS SHOOTING AT RESCUERS BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T SURE WHO THEY WERE? WHY DIDN'T YOU GET A BOAT AND TRY TO HELP YOURSELF? BECAUSE YOU MIGHT HAVE GOTTEN SHOT BY A CONFUSED AND DEPSPARATE INDIVIDUAL WHO HAD NOTHING TO LOSE.
INSTEAD OF YOU BLAMING PEOPLE, HOW BOUT A BETTER SOLUTION?
The Debacle at Walter Ree
When proof was given that the US doesn’t lead the world in homicides per capita:
LET’S SHADE THE TRUTH A LITTLE:
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]The Mir@cle wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Come on.. You want to compare the US to Russia? I don't know if you know the situation in Russia, but it's more like a third wold country to me. I didn't want the US to look like the bad guy. I just want to make your figures more reliable.[/QUOTE]
Well it is on the planet, so it should count. But you're right. Let's throw out all the "third world" countries and then the US is the unsafest place on the planet.
LET’S JUST FLAT OUT LIE:
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Boy Thomas Raker wrote: [/QUOTENAME]A few years back, an NFL player died during summer practice in 100+ degree temperatures. The NFL and the Players Association implemented changes to monitor players better during times of intense heat, even though "only" one player died.
One death caused great changes in a pro sports league since they deemed one death to one too many. [/QUOTE]
Exactly what changes were made when Corey Stringer died? No rules were implemented… the players association made suggestions and promised to be watching, but nothing was done and rules weren’t changed. and Mrs. Stringer still continues to appeal the Supreme Court to blame the NFL.
LET’S CONFUSE EM’:
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]CMU HistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
I could give you far more than 3 Microwave. But since you are limiting me from using anything connected to Iraq, I just used the first three that came into my head. I would now like to respond to your posts.
A) Any student of history knows that when you use torture to try and extract information, you get bad information, because people will say anything to stop the torture.
SO WE SHOULD DO ANYTHING AT ALL!!!
B) I never said the US was to blame for the mess in Palestine and Israel. I said we need to take responsibility for the fact that we haven't been helping. No one else is doing any better than we are, I will admit.
SO WE SHOULD SHOULDER ALL THE BLAME!!!
C) Yes, I do know what life was like for the South Koreans before we came in...my boyfriend taught in South Korea for more than a year and has informed me what it was like to live there and the things that they thought and going to the DMZ and things like that. What the US should take responsibility for is not getting the troops out sooner when they recognized the attacks weren't working.
SO WE DIDN'T ACT QUICK ENOUGH. REMEMBER NO INTERNET, BAD SATELLITES, SO WE WOULD HAVE "JUMPED THE GUN", HUH?
D) You need to review your geography. How is Britain, The Dutch, etc. closer to Darfur?
AFRICA IS CLOSER TO EUROPE IN MY ATLAS. PERHAPS YOUR IS MISTAKEN.
If the US is truly interested in the good of all people, it wouldn't sit around and wait for some other country to do good things before it acted.
SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT NO OTHER COUNTRY IS INTERESTED IN THE GOOD OF ALL PEOPLE EITHER THEN, SINCE THEY DON'T LIFT A HAND UNTIL WE DO.
The blatant racism, elitism, mis-use and un-preparadness of the government in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.
WHAT ABOUT THE CITY OFFICIALS? THEY DID NOTHING. YOU SAY RAY NAGIN. YOU SAW THE GOVERNOR. YOU SAW THEM DO NOTHING. IT WASN'T JUST THE GOVERNMENT, IT WAS EVERYBODY.
WHAT ABOUT THE BLACKS SHOOTING AT RESCUERS BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T SURE WHO THEY WERE? WHY DIDN'T YOU GET A BOAT AND TRY TO HELP YOURSELF? BECAUSE YOU MIGHT HAVE GOTTEN SHOT BY A CONFUSED AND DEPSPARATE INDIVIDUAL WHO HAD NOTHING TO LOSE.
INSTEAD OF YOU BLAMING PEOPLE, HOW BOUT A BETTER SOLUTION?
The Debacle at Walter Ree
Microwave,
I don't know why I keep having these conversations with you, as you clearly are not willing to step outside of any situation and view it with an ice-cold eye. But I feel the need to defend myself and point out why you are mistaken....again.
Particularly in your responses to me, you only show yourself as a master of the Black or White argument. Everything in life is either black or white with you, isn't it? Either it's good or evil, all or nothing.
That may work in Texas, but the rest of the world operates on a different plane of reality...a world where almost nothing is black or white. I personally distrust any argument that is made on the basis of a black and white argument. With this information at hand, I'd like to point out examples for you:
A) Any student of history knows that when you use torture to try and extract information, you get bad information, because people will say anything to stop the torture.
SO WE SHOULD DO ANYTHING AT ALL!!!
That is not what I said. That is NEVER what I said, or even implied. Beyond the fact that I think you meant to say "NOTHING" instead of "ANYTHING" and the annoying fact that you type in all caps, your argument is classic black and white. Torture extracts bad information, that's all I said. I never made the claim that we should do nothing. I simply said that there are more reliable alternatives for getting the information you want.
B) I never said the US was to blame for the mess in Palestine and Israel. I said we need to take responsibility for the fact that we haven't been helping. No one else is doing any better than we are, I will admit.
SO WE SHOULD SHOULDER ALL THE BLAME!!!
**shakes head** Where did you even come up with this idea? Honestly? We shoulder the blame for the fact that we've done nothing to help, but so should Britain and France and Germany and everyone else with a stake in the situation (this includes countries like Jordan and Saudi Arabia, btw)
C) Yes, I do know what life was like for the South Koreans before we came in...my boyfriend taught in South Korea for more than a year and has informed me what it was like to live there and the things that they thought and going to the DMZ and things like that. What the US should take responsibility for is not getting the troops out sooner when they recognized the attacks weren't working.
SO WE DIDN'T ACT QUICK ENOUGH. REMEMBER NO INTERNET, BAD SATELLITES, SO WE WOULD HAVE "JUMPED THE GUN", HUH?
Where you came up with the idea that I thought that we had the capability to pull out immediately is beyond me. Believe me, I'm aware there was no internet, bad satellites and shaky communication at best. But NUMEROUS examinations by reputable historians and investigators have shown that we could have pulled out a hell of a lot quicker than we did, despite the technilogical and communication barriers that were in place at the time.
D) If the US is truly interested in the good of all people, it wouldn't sit around and wait for some other country to do good things before it acted.
SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT NO OTHER COUNTRY IS INTERESTED IN THE GOOD OF ALL PEOPLE EITHER THEN, SINCE THEY DON'T LIFT A HAND UNTIL WE DO.
That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is the exact opposite actually. You claim that we should wait until other countries do good things before we get involved. I simply state that we don't have to wait for someone else...we can start it. I know, that sounds shocking to you. And stop with the blanket statements about "no other country"....many of them do things better than us, just like many of them do worse than us.
E) The blatant racism, elitism, mis-use and un-preparadness of the government in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.
WHAT ABOUT THE CITY OFFICIALS? THEY DID NOTHING. YOU SAY RAY NAGIN. YOU SAW THE GOVERNOR. YOU SAW THEM DO NOTHING. IT WASN'T JUST THE GOVERNMENT, IT WAS EVERYBODY.
WHAT ABOUT THE B
I don't know why I keep having these conversations with you, as you clearly are not willing to step outside of any situation and view it with an ice-cold eye. But I feel the need to defend myself and point out why you are mistaken....again.
Particularly in your responses to me, you only show yourself as a master of the Black or White argument. Everything in life is either black or white with you, isn't it? Either it's good or evil, all or nothing.
That may work in Texas, but the rest of the world operates on a different plane of reality...a world where almost nothing is black or white. I personally distrust any argument that is made on the basis of a black and white argument. With this information at hand, I'd like to point out examples for you:
A) Any student of history knows that when you use torture to try and extract information, you get bad information, because people will say anything to stop the torture.
SO WE SHOULD DO ANYTHING AT ALL!!!
That is not what I said. That is NEVER what I said, or even implied. Beyond the fact that I think you meant to say "NOTHING" instead of "ANYTHING" and the annoying fact that you type in all caps, your argument is classic black and white. Torture extracts bad information, that's all I said. I never made the claim that we should do nothing. I simply said that there are more reliable alternatives for getting the information you want.
B) I never said the US was to blame for the mess in Palestine and Israel. I said we need to take responsibility for the fact that we haven't been helping. No one else is doing any better than we are, I will admit.
SO WE SHOULD SHOULDER ALL THE BLAME!!!
**shakes head** Where did you even come up with this idea? Honestly? We shoulder the blame for the fact that we've done nothing to help, but so should Britain and France and Germany and everyone else with a stake in the situation (this includes countries like Jordan and Saudi Arabia, btw)
C) Yes, I do know what life was like for the South Koreans before we came in...my boyfriend taught in South Korea for more than a year and has informed me what it was like to live there and the things that they thought and going to the DMZ and things like that. What the US should take responsibility for is not getting the troops out sooner when they recognized the attacks weren't working.
SO WE DIDN'T ACT QUICK ENOUGH. REMEMBER NO INTERNET, BAD SATELLITES, SO WE WOULD HAVE "JUMPED THE GUN", HUH?
Where you came up with the idea that I thought that we had the capability to pull out immediately is beyond me. Believe me, I'm aware there was no internet, bad satellites and shaky communication at best. But NUMEROUS examinations by reputable historians and investigators have shown that we could have pulled out a hell of a lot quicker than we did, despite the technilogical and communication barriers that were in place at the time.
D) If the US is truly interested in the good of all people, it wouldn't sit around and wait for some other country to do good things before it acted.
SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT NO OTHER COUNTRY IS INTERESTED IN THE GOOD OF ALL PEOPLE EITHER THEN, SINCE THEY DON'T LIFT A HAND UNTIL WE DO.
That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is the exact opposite actually. You claim that we should wait until other countries do good things before we get involved. I simply state that we don't have to wait for someone else...we can start it. I know, that sounds shocking to you. And stop with the blanket statements about "no other country"....many of them do things better than us, just like many of them do worse than us.
E) The blatant racism, elitism, mis-use and un-preparadness of the government in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.
WHAT ABOUT THE CITY OFFICIALS? THEY DID NOTHING. YOU SAY RAY NAGIN. YOU SAW THE GOVERNOR. YOU SAW THEM DO NOTHING. IT WASN'T JUST THE GOVERNMENT, IT WAS EVERYBODY.
WHAT ABOUT THE B
Microwave, you're like a guy who would dismiss any suggestion from anyone to prove you're right, even when you hold no factual position. So, as to my "lie" about Corey Stringer. Since you'll debunk it, (if you compare America to Russia you don't want intelligent debate), here's a few snippets.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165770,00.html
"There was no way for trainers to monitor players' core temperatures on that sweltering July day when Stringer collapsed, no definitive way to tell that his massive body was overheating beyond its threshold.
But now there is, in the form of a swallowed capsule that measures core body temperature as it passes through the digestive system, and the Vikings — along with a few other NFL teams — are using it."
Jackson Jaguars head trainer Mike Ryan takes a similar approach.
"We have what we call a 'watch list.' It's usually for the larger players or players who have a history of conditioning factor or anyone who's lost a lot of weight just before camp," Ryan said.
Ryan said if the pill is working properly, it all but eliminates the risk of another heatstroke death."
Read that last paragraph. The NFL has a problem (heat issues) and have educated players (proof from two sources) and training staff about hydrating and monitoring their core body temperatures. But I'm lying. You've just got your head so far up your ass you think people hate America or are blaming America for everything that you can't acknowledge that America is the most violent DEVELOPED country in the world, and the stats bear it out.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165770,00.html
"There was no way for trainers to monitor players' core temperatures on that sweltering July day when Stringer collapsed, no definitive way to tell that his massive body was overheating beyond its threshold.
But now there is, in the form of a swallowed capsule that measures core body temperature as it passes through the digestive system, and the Vikings — along with a few other NFL teams — are using it."
Jackson Jaguars head trainer Mike Ryan takes a similar approach.
"We have what we call a 'watch list.' It's usually for the larger players or players who have a history of conditioning factor or anyone who's lost a lot of weight just before camp," Ryan said.
Ryan said if the pill is working properly, it all but eliminates the risk of another heatstroke death."
Read that last paragraph. The NFL has a problem (heat issues) and have educated players (proof from two sources) and training staff about hydrating and monitoring their core body temperatures. But I'm lying. You've just got your head so far up your ass you think people hate America or are blaming America for everything that you can't acknowledge that America is the most violent DEVELOPED country in the world, and the stats bear it out.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Boy Thomas Raker wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Microwave, you're like a guy who would dismiss any suggestion from anyone to prove you're right, even when you hold no factual position. So, as to my "lie" about Corey Stringer. Since you'll debunk it, (if you compare America to Russia you don't want intelligent debate), here's a few snippets.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165770,00.html
"There was no way for trainers to monitor players' core temperatures on that sweltering July day when Stringer collapsed, no definitive way to tell that his massive body was overheating beyond its threshold.
But now there is, in the form of a swallowed capsule that measures core body temperature as it passes through the digestive system, and the Vikings — along with a few other NFL teams — are using it."
Jackson Jaguars head trainer Mike Ryan takes a similar approach.
"We have what we call a 'watch list.' It's usually for the larger players or players who have a history of conditioning factor or anyone who's lost a lot of weight just before camp," Ryan said.
Ryan said if the pill is working properly, it all but eliminates the risk of another heatstroke death."
Read that last paragraph. The NFL has a problem (heat issues) and have educated players (proof from two sources) and training staff about hydrating and monitoring their core body temperatures. But I'm lying. You've just got your head so far up your ass you think people hate America or are blaming America for everything that you can't acknowledge that America is the most violent DEVELOPED country in the world, and the stats bear it out.[/QUOTE]
I thought you said the NFL made rule changes. Your above comments show clearly that they were suggestions, not rule changes, so I proved my point.
Head up my arse? Maybe. But very few, including you, have blamed the person responsible for the VT shootings. It was Cho. Not gun laws, economic conditions, or Corey Stringer. While you and CMU History Girl dismiss me as just pro-US anything, that's not what I'm saying. I want people to take responsibility for their actions.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165770,00.html
"There was no way for trainers to monitor players' core temperatures on that sweltering July day when Stringer collapsed, no definitive way to tell that his massive body was overheating beyond its threshold.
But now there is, in the form of a swallowed capsule that measures core body temperature as it passes through the digestive system, and the Vikings — along with a few other NFL teams — are using it."
Jackson Jaguars head trainer Mike Ryan takes a similar approach.
"We have what we call a 'watch list.' It's usually for the larger players or players who have a history of conditioning factor or anyone who's lost a lot of weight just before camp," Ryan said.
Ryan said if the pill is working properly, it all but eliminates the risk of another heatstroke death."
Read that last paragraph. The NFL has a problem (heat issues) and have educated players (proof from two sources) and training staff about hydrating and monitoring their core body temperatures. But I'm lying. You've just got your head so far up your ass you think people hate America or are blaming America for everything that you can't acknowledge that America is the most violent DEVELOPED country in the world, and the stats bear it out.[/QUOTE]
I thought you said the NFL made rule changes. Your above comments show clearly that they were suggestions, not rule changes, so I proved my point.
Head up my arse? Maybe. But very few, including you, have blamed the person responsible for the VT shootings. It was Cho. Not gun laws, economic conditions, or Corey Stringer. While you and CMU History Girl dismiss me as just pro-US anything, that's not what I'm saying. I want people to take responsibility for their actions.