Haha! That's great!
Personally, I would love smoke free pubs and bars...that means you wouldn't have to fabreeze the hell out of your jacket and shower before you go to bed when you are out for the night.
Smokers will still smoke though...they'll just have to go out in the rain and snow and cold to do it! ;-)
And us non-smokers will laugh at them while they shiver so badly they can't get the cigarette to their lips
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[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]CMU HistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Haha! That's great!
Personally, I would love smoke free pubs and bars...that means you wouldn't have to fabreeze the hell out of your jacket and shower before you go to bed when you are out for the night.
Smokers will still smoke though...they'll just have to go out in the rain and snow and cold to do it! ;-)
And us non-smokers will laugh at them while they shiver so badly they can't get the cigarette to their lips[/QUOTE]
i would sneeze in your hair if you did :-]
Personally, I would love smoke free pubs and bars...that means you wouldn't have to fabreeze the hell out of your jacket and shower before you go to bed when you are out for the night.
Smokers will still smoke though...they'll just have to go out in the rain and snow and cold to do it! ;-)
And us non-smokers will laugh at them while they shiver so badly they can't get the cigarette to their lips[/QUOTE]
i would sneeze in your hair if you did :-]
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]CMU HistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Haha! That's great!
Personally, I would love smoke free pubs and bars...that means you wouldn't have to fabreeze the hell out of your jacket and shower before you go to bed when you are out for the night.
Smokers will still smoke though...they'll just have to go out in the rain and snow and cold to do it! ;-)
And us non-smokers will laugh at them while they shiver so badly they can't get the cigarette to their lips [/QUOTE]
This entire post made me laugh aloud. Love it. :-D
Personally, I would love smoke free pubs and bars...that means you wouldn't have to fabreeze the hell out of your jacket and shower before you go to bed when you are out for the night.
Smokers will still smoke though...they'll just have to go out in the rain and snow and cold to do it! ;-)
And us non-smokers will laugh at them while they shiver so badly they can't get the cigarette to their lips [/QUOTE]
This entire post made me laugh aloud. Love it. :-D
In Scotland, the only vehicles you are not allowed to smoke in is buses, taxi's and trains - in other words public service vehicles. Privately owned cars is an entirely different matter.
One way that pubs and clubs get round the smoking ban is to set up smoking areas that are not enclosed. By that I mean they dont have 4 walls and a roof. Most of them have heating as well for those poor souls who have to suffer the cold all for the sake of a ciggy.
One way that pubs and clubs get round the smoking ban is to set up smoking areas that are not enclosed. By that I mean they dont have 4 walls and a roof. Most of them have heating as well for those poor souls who have to suffer the cold all for the sake of a ciggy.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=red>Mr Mercury</font color> wrote: [/QUOTENAME]In Scotland, the only vehicles you are not allowed to smoke in is buses, taxi's and trains - in other words public service vehicles. Privately owned cars is an entirely different matter.
One way that pubs and clubs get round the smoking ban is to set up smoking areas that are not enclosed. By that I mean they dont have 4 walls and a roof. Most of them have heating as well for those poor souls who have to suffer the cold all for the sake of a ciggy.[/QUOTE]
i dont think they are allowing smoking areas in England otherwise it wouldnt be so much of a gripe with the publicans and customers.i think its a total ban,i might be wrong though.maybe someone has more info here?
One way that pubs and clubs get round the smoking ban is to set up smoking areas that are not enclosed. By that I mean they dont have 4 walls and a roof. Most of them have heating as well for those poor souls who have to suffer the cold all for the sake of a ciggy.[/QUOTE]
i dont think they are allowing smoking areas in England otherwise it wouldnt be so much of a gripe with the publicans and customers.i think its a total ban,i might be wrong though.maybe someone has more info here?
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME] Regardless of whether or not it will hurt businesses is irrelevant. It's still morally reprehensible to dictate that a business cannot freely operate as they wish. It should be up to businesses to decide whether or not they should allow smoking, and no one else should have any power over this. [/QUOTE]
I disagree. Surprised? :)
Of course businesses should be able to operate as they wish, but that extends only to the business itself. They can decide what product they will sell, what uniforms their personnel will wear, what hours they'll maintain, etc. But when it comes to public safety, there are rules/laws to follow. They cannot opt to forgo the fire extinguisher or multiple safety exits. They cannot serve liquor to minors, nor can they allow animals other than guide dogs into their shop (when food service is involved). While these businesses are privately owned and operated, they're open to the public and that's why these laws can be enforced.
Just like this:
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=red>Mr Mercury</font color> wrote: [/QUOTENAME]In Scotland, the only vehicles you are not allowed to smoke in is buses, taxi's and trains - in other words public service vehicles. Privately owned cars is an entirely different matter.[/QUOTE]
Now, if private clubs - like country clubs for example, where you have to pay a fee to belong - are forced to follow these rules, then I'm inclined to agree with you. But for businesses open to the public, I think they are well within their rights to pass and enforce smoking restrictions.
I disagree. Surprised? :)
Of course businesses should be able to operate as they wish, but that extends only to the business itself. They can decide what product they will sell, what uniforms their personnel will wear, what hours they'll maintain, etc. But when it comes to public safety, there are rules/laws to follow. They cannot opt to forgo the fire extinguisher or multiple safety exits. They cannot serve liquor to minors, nor can they allow animals other than guide dogs into their shop (when food service is involved). While these businesses are privately owned and operated, they're open to the public and that's why these laws can be enforced.
Just like this:
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=red>Mr Mercury</font color> wrote: [/QUOTENAME]In Scotland, the only vehicles you are not allowed to smoke in is buses, taxi's and trains - in other words public service vehicles. Privately owned cars is an entirely different matter.[/QUOTE]
Now, if private clubs - like country clubs for example, where you have to pay a fee to belong - are forced to follow these rules, then I'm inclined to agree with you. But for businesses open to the public, I think they are well within their rights to pass and enforce smoking restrictions.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]joxerthehippypirate wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=red>Mr Mercury</font color> wrote: [/QUOTENAME]In Scotland, the only vehicles you are not allowed to smoke in is buses, taxi's and trains - in other words public service vehicles. Privately owned cars is an entirely different matter.
One way that pubs and clubs get round the smoking ban is to set up smoking areas that are not enclosed. By that I mean they dont have 4 walls and a roof. Most of them have heating as well for those poor souls who have to suffer the cold all for the sake of a ciggy.[/QUOTE]
I found some information about it here -
i dont think they are allowing smoking areas in England otherwise it wouldnt be so much of a gripe with the publicans and customers.i think its a total ban,i might be wrong though.maybe someone has more info here?[/QUOTE]
I found some information about it here -
http://www.thesite.org/drinkanddrugs/drugsafety/smoking/smokingban
It says smoking is allowed outdoors and in places considered 'homes', such as hotels. I wonder if this means one can still smoke in an outdoors area of a restaurant.. Probably not, on reflection.
One way that pubs and clubs get round the smoking ban is to set up smoking areas that are not enclosed. By that I mean they dont have 4 walls and a roof. Most of them have heating as well for those poor souls who have to suffer the cold all for the sake of a ciggy.[/QUOTE]
I found some information about it here -
i dont think they are allowing smoking areas in England otherwise it wouldnt be so much of a gripe with the publicans and customers.i think its a total ban,i might be wrong though.maybe someone has more info here?[/QUOTE]
I found some information about it here -
http://www.thesite.org/drinkanddrugs/drugsafety/smoking/smokingban
It says smoking is allowed outdoors and in places considered 'homes', such as hotels. I wonder if this means one can still smoke in an outdoors area of a restaurant.. Probably not, on reflection.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=009966>?Freya? wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]joxerthehippypirate wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=red>Mr Mercury</font color> wrote: [/QUOTENAME]In Scotland, the only vehicles you are not allowed to smoke in is buses, taxi's and trains - in other words public service vehicles. Privately owned cars is an entirely different matter.
One way that pubs and clubs get round the smoking ban is to set up smoking areas that are not enclosed. By that I mean they dont have 4 walls and a roof. Most of them have heating as well for those poor souls who have to suffer the cold all for the sake of a ciggy.[/QUOTE]
I found some information about it here -
i dont think they are allowing smoking areas in England otherwise it wouldnt be so much of a gripe with the publicans and customers.i think its a total ban,i might be wrong though.maybe someone has more info here?[/QUOTE]
I found some information about it here -
http://www.thesite.org/drinkanddrugs/drugsafety/smoking/smokingban
It says smoking is allowed outdoors and in places considered 'homes', such as hotels. I wonder if this means one can still smoke in an outdoors area of a restaurant.. Probably not, on reflection.[/QUOTE]
no one cant still smoke in an outdoors area of restaurants after the start date and yes private clubs are having to follow these rules too
One way that pubs and clubs get round the smoking ban is to set up smoking areas that are not enclosed. By that I mean they dont have 4 walls and a roof. Most of them have heating as well for those poor souls who have to suffer the cold all for the sake of a ciggy.[/QUOTE]
I found some information about it here -
i dont think they are allowing smoking areas in England otherwise it wouldnt be so much of a gripe with the publicans and customers.i think its a total ban,i might be wrong though.maybe someone has more info here?[/QUOTE]
I found some information about it here -
http://www.thesite.org/drinkanddrugs/drugsafety/smoking/smokingban
It says smoking is allowed outdoors and in places considered 'homes', such as hotels. I wonder if this means one can still smoke in an outdoors area of a restaurant.. Probably not, on reflection.[/QUOTE]
no one cant still smoke in an outdoors area of restaurants after the start date and yes private clubs are having to follow these rules too
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME] Regardless of whether or not it will hurt businesses is irrelevant. It's still morally reprehensible to dictate that a business cannot freely operate as they wish. It should be up to businesses to decide whether or not they should allow smoking, and no one else should have any power over this. [/QUOTE]
I disagree. Surprised? :)
Of course businesses should be able to operate as they wish, but that extends only to the business itself. They can decide what product they will sell, what uniforms their personnel will wear, what hours they'll maintain, etc. But when it comes to public safety, there are rules/laws to follow. They cannot opt to forgo the fire extinguisher or multiple safety exits. They cannot serve liquor to minors, nor can they allow animals other than guide dogs into their shop (when food service is involved). While these businesses are privately owned and operated, they're open to the public and that's why these laws can be enforced.
Just like this:
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=red>Mr Mercury</font color> wrote: [/QUOTENAME]In Scotland, the only vehicles you are not allowed to smoke in is buses, taxi's and trains - in other words public service vehicles. Privately owned cars is an entirely different matter.[/QUOTE]
Now, if private clubs - like country clubs for example, where you have to pay a fee to belong - are forced to follow these rules, then I'm inclined to agree with you. But for businesses open to the public, I think they are well within their rights to pass and enforce smoking restrictions. [/QUOTE]
You make a really good point, and I almost agree with you. However, when it comes to smoking, it's very clear that smokers would prefer one type of establishment, and non-smokers would prefer another. The businesses that allow smoking would attract one type, and businesses that ban smoking would attract the other. As consumers, we have the ability to dine wherever we wish. If we don't like something that goes on in one place, we don't go there.
Measures as to safety are almost never a personal preference, and they don't restrict the freedom of anyone. Being reasonably safe is one thing. Restricting an activity due to a preference is another.
I disagree. Surprised? :)
Of course businesses should be able to operate as they wish, but that extends only to the business itself. They can decide what product they will sell, what uniforms their personnel will wear, what hours they'll maintain, etc. But when it comes to public safety, there are rules/laws to follow. They cannot opt to forgo the fire extinguisher or multiple safety exits. They cannot serve liquor to minors, nor can they allow animals other than guide dogs into their shop (when food service is involved). While these businesses are privately owned and operated, they're open to the public and that's why these laws can be enforced.
Just like this:
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=red>Mr Mercury</font color> wrote: [/QUOTENAME]In Scotland, the only vehicles you are not allowed to smoke in is buses, taxi's and trains - in other words public service vehicles. Privately owned cars is an entirely different matter.[/QUOTE]
Now, if private clubs - like country clubs for example, where you have to pay a fee to belong - are forced to follow these rules, then I'm inclined to agree with you. But for businesses open to the public, I think they are well within their rights to pass and enforce smoking restrictions. [/QUOTE]
You make a really good point, and I almost agree with you. However, when it comes to smoking, it's very clear that smokers would prefer one type of establishment, and non-smokers would prefer another. The businesses that allow smoking would attract one type, and businesses that ban smoking would attract the other. As consumers, we have the ability to dine wherever we wish. If we don't like something that goes on in one place, we don't go there.
Measures as to safety are almost never a personal preference, and they don't restrict the freedom of anyone. Being reasonably safe is one thing. Restricting an activity due to a preference is another.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
The businesses that allow smoking would attract one type, and businesses that ban smoking would attract the other. As consumers, we have the ability to dine wherever we wish. If we don't like something that goes on in one place, we don't go there. [/QUOTE]
I took my daughter to Williamsburg, Virginia last summer. Apparently, in Virginia, they don't have the same non-smoking laws as we have in New York.
In one theme restaurant, we were seated beside a group of smokers. I could have requested to have our seats moved, but there were other smokers in the place so I doubt it would have helped. I suppose we could have left, but we'd made reservations and were excited about having dinner in this 'period' place.
Point is, the smoke affected our enjoyment of our meal. It was clear it affected the enjoyment of many other diners as well. This place appealed to smoker and nonsmoker alike. The owner would lose half her/his business if s/he had to decide which group to serve. It hardly seems practical. Or profitable.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Measures as to safety are almost never a personal preference, and they don't restrict the freedom of anyone. Being reasonably safe is one thing. Restricting an activity due to a preference is another. [/QUOTE]
Well... it might be the smoker's preference, but the non-smoker doesn't have much say in it if s/he's sitting next to one.
It can be argued that allowing smoking restricts the freedom of non-smokers. However, a smoker is still allowed to smoke - just not within the establishment. Frustrating for the smoker, yes, but they still have a choice whereas smoking inside eliminates the choice of non-smokers.
And... there's a larger issue at stake here. Health. And not just health, but health insurance.
Second-hand smoke has proved to be more dangerous than previously acknowledged. Spouses and children of smokers are suffering and dying due to the second-hand smoke they breathed for years. If a guy is smoking next to me, his smoke is directly affecting my health.
And then there's health insurance. The more cases of lung cancer, emphysema and other smoking-related illnesses there are, the higher the medical expense. This affects everyone who has a monthly health care premium to pay. The more money insurance companies have to pay out, the more they charge the policy holders, which makes it harder and harder to afford simple coverage.
Smoking affects everyone in a negative way. Banning it in public enclosed spaces is not as much a restriction on freedom as is permitting it.
The businesses that allow smoking would attract one type, and businesses that ban smoking would attract the other. As consumers, we have the ability to dine wherever we wish. If we don't like something that goes on in one place, we don't go there. [/QUOTE]
I took my daughter to Williamsburg, Virginia last summer. Apparently, in Virginia, they don't have the same non-smoking laws as we have in New York.
In one theme restaurant, we were seated beside a group of smokers. I could have requested to have our seats moved, but there were other smokers in the place so I doubt it would have helped. I suppose we could have left, but we'd made reservations and were excited about having dinner in this 'period' place.
Point is, the smoke affected our enjoyment of our meal. It was clear it affected the enjoyment of many other diners as well. This place appealed to smoker and nonsmoker alike. The owner would lose half her/his business if s/he had to decide which group to serve. It hardly seems practical. Or profitable.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=666600>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Measures as to safety are almost never a personal preference, and they don't restrict the freedom of anyone. Being reasonably safe is one thing. Restricting an activity due to a preference is another. [/QUOTE]
Well... it might be the smoker's preference, but the non-smoker doesn't have much say in it if s/he's sitting next to one.
It can be argued that allowing smoking restricts the freedom of non-smokers. However, a smoker is still allowed to smoke - just not within the establishment. Frustrating for the smoker, yes, but they still have a choice whereas smoking inside eliminates the choice of non-smokers.
And... there's a larger issue at stake here. Health. And not just health, but health insurance.
Second-hand smoke has proved to be more dangerous than previously acknowledged. Spouses and children of smokers are suffering and dying due to the second-hand smoke they breathed for years. If a guy is smoking next to me, his smoke is directly affecting my health.
And then there's health insurance. The more cases of lung cancer, emphysema and other smoking-related illnesses there are, the higher the medical expense. This affects everyone who has a monthly health care premium to pay. The more money insurance companies have to pay out, the more they charge the policy holders, which makes it harder and harder to afford simple coverage.
Smoking affects everyone in a negative way. Banning it in public enclosed spaces is not as much a restriction on freedom as is permitting it.
I don't think there's a right to go into someone else's (a business's) property and not inhale smoke. There's really no infringement of rights there. Just like a business has the right to kick you out of the joint if you do smoke. Very importantly, I'm arguing for the rights of the business - not those of smokers.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]joxerthehippypirate wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b><font color=009966>?Freya? wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]joxerthehippypirate wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=red>Mr Mercury</font color> wrote: [/QUOTENAME]In Scotland, the only vehicles you are not allowed to smoke in is buses, taxi's and trains - in other words public service vehicles. Privately owned cars is an entirely different matter.
One way that pubs and clubs get round the smoking ban is to set up smoking areas that are not enclosed. By that I mean they dont have 4 walls and a roof. Most of them have heating as well for those poor souls who have to suffer the cold all for the sake of a ciggy.[/QUOTE]
I found some information about it here -
i dont think they are allowing smoking areas in England otherwise it wouldnt be so much of a gripe with the publicans and customers.i think its a total ban,i might be wrong though.maybe someone has more info here?[/QUOTE]
I found some information about it here -
http://www.thesite.org/drinkanddrugs/drugsafety/smoking/smokingban
It says smoking is allowed outdoors and in places considered 'homes', such as hotels. I wonder if this means one can still smoke in an outdoors area of a restaurant.. Probably not, on reflection.[/QUOTE]
no one cant still smoke in an outdoors area of restaurants after the start date and yes private clubs are having to follow these rules too[/QUOTE]
According to the regultaions which are freely available on www.smokefreeengland.co.uk, smoking will be banned in 'enclosed and substantially enclosed public places'. This means anywhere with a roof and more than two walls. There is absolutely nothing stopping people from smoking outside in beer gardens etc unless the owner decides to impose their own ban. This was the same definition that was put in place in Wales at the start of April, and things seem to be going pretty well there so far. Please try to get your facts right before sounding off!
As for the ban killing trade, in Ireland, Scotland and (so far) in Wales, trade has generally gone up in pubs and clubs, as a huge number of people previously chose not to go to places where they would be exposed to large amounts of second hand smoke. If people want to smoke, they can always nip outside (a fact which has meant that producers of patio-heaters are facing record profits in England this year!)and if it helps a few people decide that they may as well have a crack at giving up, all the better.
One way that pubs and clubs get round the smoking ban is to set up smoking areas that are not enclosed. By that I mean they dont have 4 walls and a roof. Most of them have heating as well for those poor souls who have to suffer the cold all for the sake of a ciggy.[/QUOTE]
I found some information about it here -
i dont think they are allowing smoking areas in England otherwise it wouldnt be so much of a gripe with the publicans and customers.i think its a total ban,i might be wrong though.maybe someone has more info here?[/QUOTE]
I found some information about it here -
http://www.thesite.org/drinkanddrugs/drugsafety/smoking/smokingban
It says smoking is allowed outdoors and in places considered 'homes', such as hotels. I wonder if this means one can still smoke in an outdoors area of a restaurant.. Probably not, on reflection.[/QUOTE]
no one cant still smoke in an outdoors area of restaurants after the start date and yes private clubs are having to follow these rules too[/QUOTE]
According to the regultaions which are freely available on www.smokefreeengland.co.uk, smoking will be banned in 'enclosed and substantially enclosed public places'. This means anywhere with a roof and more than two walls. There is absolutely nothing stopping people from smoking outside in beer gardens etc unless the owner decides to impose their own ban. This was the same definition that was put in place in Wales at the start of April, and things seem to be going pretty well there so far. Please try to get your facts right before sounding off!
As for the ban killing trade, in Ireland, Scotland and (so far) in Wales, trade has generally gone up in pubs and clubs, as a huge number of people previously chose not to go to places where they would be exposed to large amounts of second hand smoke. If people want to smoke, they can always nip outside (a fact which has meant that producers of patio-heaters are facing record profits in England this year!)and if it helps a few people decide that they may as well have a crack at giving up, all the better.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]great king rat 1138 wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
As for the ban killing trade, in Ireland, Scotland and (so far) in Wales, trade has generally gone up in pubs and clubs, as a huge number of people previously chose not to go to places where they would be exposed to large amounts of second hand smoke. If people want to smoke, they can always nip outside (a fact which has meant that producers of patio-heaters are facing record profits in England this year!)and if it helps a few people decide that they may as well have a crack at giving up, all the better.
[/QUOTE]
Excellent post. What you said about how things are going in Ireland, Scotland and Wales mirrors how things have gone in New York since the ban was imposed. Businesses were not paralyzed, no one was excluded from an establishment, and in fact, outdoor areas were beautified in order to attract and accommodate smokers. It's the new norm and no one seems all that put out about it.
As for the ban killing trade, in Ireland, Scotland and (so far) in Wales, trade has generally gone up in pubs and clubs, as a huge number of people previously chose not to go to places where they would be exposed to large amounts of second hand smoke. If people want to smoke, they can always nip outside (a fact which has meant that producers of patio-heaters are facing record profits in England this year!)and if it helps a few people decide that they may as well have a crack at giving up, all the better.
[/QUOTE]
Excellent post. What you said about how things are going in Ireland, Scotland and Wales mirrors how things have gone in New York since the ban was imposed. Businesses were not paralyzed, no one was excluded from an establishment, and in fact, outdoor areas were beautified in order to attract and accommodate smokers. It's the new norm and no one seems all that put out about it.
In the last few weeks Mary & I went to The Black Horse pub, West End in London -- definitely smoking going on (and copius amounts of Guinness!) -- likewise O'Neills, Irish pub down the street from the Earl's Court tube station, where a 'non-smoking' section exists in front of the fireplace! :P The Clachan Pub in Drymen, Scotland, has a separate bar and lounge/restaurant area, lovely tartan carpet, but since we kept to the lounge I don't think there was much smoking going on at 6pm. However the Tennent's went well with the Scottish steak pie. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. The Oak Tree Inn in Balmaha, Scotland, didn't have any smoking inside or on the patio outside, but there were a lot of families with young kids. Maybe later in the evening, dunno. They did have a fabulous bottle of Glengoyne to make my feet forget about hiking the Millenium Forest and Inchcailloch Island tho :D
My guess is like here in West Virginia, some inspectors don't heavily enforce the reg, in a bar folks will smoke what they want when they can or until the owner gets personally invested in the ban. Monongalia County went smokeless some time ago, and it hasn't really impacted the drinking business as much as cigarette machines have disappeared...
My guess is like here in West Virginia, some inspectors don't heavily enforce the reg, in a bar folks will smoke what they want when they can or until the owner gets personally invested in the ban. Monongalia County went smokeless some time ago, and it hasn't really impacted the drinking business as much as cigarette machines have disappeared...