http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080419/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat;_ylt=AlPTx2CGoR0ToDaCSDJ6xuRH2ocA
So the judge ruled that the children stay in custody of the court.
Finally, this whole shameful debacle can be put to rest.
*sigh*...only in Texas lol
-=Brian=-
Thread
Posts in chronological order
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]mystic_rhythms wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Finally, this whole shameful debacle can be put to rest.
*sigh*...only in Texas lol
-=Brian=- [/QUOTE]
I'm afraid this won't put anything to rest. It's only the beginning. Those children will need years of therapy - as will the young mothers (also children). The state will have to pay for all of it, and will have to determine paternity of those children since most of the mothers were underage when they had them. I'm sorry to say, this isn't even close to being put to rest.
Finally, this whole shameful debacle can be put to rest.
*sigh*...only in Texas lol
-=Brian=- [/QUOTE]
I'm afraid this won't put anything to rest. It's only the beginning. Those children will need years of therapy - as will the young mothers (also children). The state will have to pay for all of it, and will have to determine paternity of those children since most of the mothers were underage when they had them. I'm sorry to say, this isn't even close to being put to rest.
Indeed...this is going to be a mess that is going to take YEARS just to figure out. Never mind providing the therapy and de-programing it's going to take to orient these women and children back into society. This is going to be a giant mess that is likely will never be solved completely.
There is going a long,hard road and I pity the children.
It's interesting how citizen rights are defined in various countries. In Germany and many other European countries you cannot isolate your children from the community. When you move to a new place you have to register as a citizen of the new community, you have to send your children to a school that is approved by the community. You even need to go through a legal procedure if you want to build a house because everything is regulated and legally supervised. On the other hand we have more rights with regards to police. A house can only be raided by armed officers when there is a public danger (terrorist attack) or the life of a citizen is in actual danger. In all other cases the police needs a written order by a judge in order to enter your home. You cannot be taken into custody without an arrest and without the chance to call a lawyer to support you.
Parents have the most natural claim of their children and the right to raise them as they see fit. But it cannot be right that parents isolate their children from the society they live in to follow some strange cult and even to sexually abuse them routinely.
Parents have the most natural claim of their children and the right to raise them as they see fit. But it cannot be right that parents isolate their children from the society they live in to follow some strange cult and even to sexually abuse them routinely.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]YourValentine wrote: [/QUOTENAME]It's interesting how citizen rights are defined in various countries. In Germany and many other European countries you cannot isolate your children from the community. When you move to a new place you have to register as a citizen of the new community, you have to send your children to a school that is approved by the community. You even need to go through a legal procedure if you want to build a house because everything is regulated and legally supervised. On the other hand we have more rights with regards to police. A house can only be raided by armed officers when there is a public danger (terrorist attack) or the life of a citizen is in actual danger. In all other cases the police needs a written order by a judge in order to enter your home. You cannot be taken into custody without an arrest and without the chance to call a lawyer to support you.
Parents have the most natural claim of their children and the right to raise them as they see fit. But it cannot be right that parents isolate their children from the society they live in to follow some strange cult and even to sexually abuse them routinely.[/QUOTE]
It's the same here in the USA, it's big trouble if your children don't attend school if they are under the age 16. I don't know how some people do it. You have to register as a citizin in any city or town or village you live in, in the USA too.
Parents have the most natural claim of their children and the right to raise them as they see fit. But it cannot be right that parents isolate their children from the society they live in to follow some strange cult and even to sexually abuse them routinely.[/QUOTE]
It's the same here in the USA, it's big trouble if your children don't attend school if they are under the age 16. I don't know how some people do it. You have to register as a citizin in any city or town or village you live in, in the USA too.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Jacob Britt wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]YourValentine wrote: [/QUOTENAME]It's interesting how citizen rights are defined in various countries. In Germany and many other European countries you cannot isolate your children from the community. When you move to a new place you have to register as a citizen of the new community, you have to send your children to a school that is approved by the community. You even need to go through a legal procedure if you want to build a house because everything is regulated and legally supervised. On the other hand we have more rights with regards to police. A house can only be raided by armed officers when there is a public danger (terrorist attack) or the life of a citizen is in actual danger. In all other cases the police needs a written order by a judge in order to enter your home. You cannot be taken into custody without an arrest and without the chance to call a lawyer to support you.
Parents have the most natural claim of their children and the right to raise them as they see fit. But it cannot be right that parents isolate their children from the society they live in to follow some strange cult and even to sexually abuse them routinely.[/QUOTE]
It's the same here in the USA, it's big trouble if your children don't attend school if they are under the age 16. I don't know how some people do it. You have to register as a citizin in any city or town or village you live in, in the USA too. [/QUOTE]
Religious freedom trumps everything else, it seems. This cult bought acres and built a soaring temple. Immediately, they and theirs were off limits. Raiding them - despite probable cause - is against the law because it infringes on the group's religious beliefs.
In this case, a 16 year old is said to have called police saying she'd been forced to marry a 50 year old man who then beat and raped her. Her child, it's said, was born when the girl was just 15. They have yet to find this girl and there are now accusations that police and Child Protective Services (CPS) fabricated the entire story in order to justify the raid. If this girl is not located or if the accusations are proven accurate, this whole case is destroyed. They cannot investigate anything because it was all uncovered illegally. That means the children will go back to their families and the families will no doubt go back to their abusive practices. Not only will the state be unable to stop it, but it will no doubt be sued by the 'church' for millions of dollars in damages. And win.
The worst part is that these kids have been told contact with the outside world will damn their souls for all eternity. I'm glad they're separated from family so the healing process can begin, but I'm so sad for them, too. The terror they must be experiencing is too great to imagine.
There are so many people in various communities ready to adopt those children should it come to that. It's heartwarming to see the outpouring of love, but I wonder why it happens only when things get as bad as this.
Parents have the most natural claim of their children and the right to raise them as they see fit. But it cannot be right that parents isolate their children from the society they live in to follow some strange cult and even to sexually abuse them routinely.[/QUOTE]
It's the same here in the USA, it's big trouble if your children don't attend school if they are under the age 16. I don't know how some people do it. You have to register as a citizin in any city or town or village you live in, in the USA too. [/QUOTE]
Religious freedom trumps everything else, it seems. This cult bought acres and built a soaring temple. Immediately, they and theirs were off limits. Raiding them - despite probable cause - is against the law because it infringes on the group's religious beliefs.
In this case, a 16 year old is said to have called police saying she'd been forced to marry a 50 year old man who then beat and raped her. Her child, it's said, was born when the girl was just 15. They have yet to find this girl and there are now accusations that police and Child Protective Services (CPS) fabricated the entire story in order to justify the raid. If this girl is not located or if the accusations are proven accurate, this whole case is destroyed. They cannot investigate anything because it was all uncovered illegally. That means the children will go back to their families and the families will no doubt go back to their abusive practices. Not only will the state be unable to stop it, but it will no doubt be sued by the 'church' for millions of dollars in damages. And win.
The worst part is that these kids have been told contact with the outside world will damn their souls for all eternity. I'm glad they're separated from family so the healing process can begin, but I'm so sad for them, too. The terror they must be experiencing is too great to imagine.
There are so many people in various communities ready to adopt those children should it come to that. It's heartwarming to see the outpouring of love, but I wonder why it happens only when things get as bad as this.
yeah, you're right. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
I meant that the major court case is over. And a crazy one at that.
Imagine this: hundreds of lawyers, a courtroom jampacked with litigators and spectators, dozens of reporters camped outside...I'm surprised the judge didn't commit herself to the local mental asylum. I would have lol
-=Brian=-
I meant that the major court case is over. And a crazy one at that.
Imagine this: hundreds of lawyers, a courtroom jampacked with litigators and spectators, dozens of reporters camped outside...I'm surprised the judge didn't commit herself to the local mental asylum. I would have lol
-=Brian=-
I am all for religious freedom but even religious schools must be supervised by the state. It cannot be that there are parallel socities and children are alienated from the society they will spend their whole life in. Parents can get involved in any school by being a member of parent advisory boards or parent committees but to let a cult remove their kids from the normal education system and let them isolate the kids from normal contact with people of other belief is very hurtful for the development of children and should not be tolerated. Now the damage is so much worse and now the jurisdiction has to deal with problems that could have been easily avoided.
The Amish live in their own communities, have their own schools, laws and medicine. Their children are raised in that society without interaction (or much, anyway) with the rest of society. It seems it's the same for this perversion of the Mormon faith (not saying the Amish are perverse in any way), just closed off from the rest of society.
Children do have to be registered with the school districts in which they live, but do not have to be registered in a school. Like my daughter - who is homeschooled. They really have no idea what, if anything, I'm teaching her. But parents have first right over their kids unless there is proof of misdeeds and the process to expose those misdeeds is carried out legally. This raid may not have been legal and so the rest of the case(s) may have to be dropped.
Children do have to be registered with the school districts in which they live, but do not have to be registered in a school. Like my daughter - who is homeschooled. They really have no idea what, if anything, I'm teaching her. But parents have first right over their kids unless there is proof of misdeeds and the process to expose those misdeeds is carried out legally. This raid may not have been legal and so the rest of the case(s) may have to be dropped.
This is a very unique case. Magical is right. Because of the number of private schools, charter schools, colloqiual schools and the option of home schooling in the US, children do not have to be in a public school. But they do have to be registered. Typically, communities like this will either build their own schools or home-school their children. Usually this means that the school cirriculum which the schools provide to the state have to match the basic standards of state public schools, but these are pretty low and once you meet these basic requirements anything else is fair game for being taught.
Because this is a religious community, the government is hands off; more so than an ordinary citizen. The government ideas that Barb talks about happen in the US to when a normal citizen with children were to withdraw from the community. But when a community has separated itself and registered as a religious community, the government's hands are tied. In this case, the government cannot do anything at all until they get a warrant, which in a religious community means the complaint has to come from the inside. Complaints from the outside mean essentially squat. Now once they get a warrant to search the community (again, must be based on a credible complaint from the inside of the community) they can go in just like anywhere else. (They also need a warrant to go into a regular house BTW)
The authorities were well aware of this community...they had been watching it for two years. They knew that illegal activity (polygamy and underage marriages) was going on, but they could not do anything about it since it was a religious community and they could not go in until there was a complaint from the inside. This call from the girl was what they needed to be able to get a warrant to get in. Now that they've found underage girls who are pregnant, there is clearly illegal activity going on. But if they can't find the girl who made the call or find out it was faked, even though they have clear evidence of something illegal taking place, nothing can be done because the warrant was invalid.
Because this is a religious community, the government is hands off; more so than an ordinary citizen. The government ideas that Barb talks about happen in the US to when a normal citizen with children were to withdraw from the community. But when a community has separated itself and registered as a religious community, the government's hands are tied. In this case, the government cannot do anything at all until they get a warrant, which in a religious community means the complaint has to come from the inside. Complaints from the outside mean essentially squat. Now once they get a warrant to search the community (again, must be based on a credible complaint from the inside of the community) they can go in just like anywhere else. (They also need a warrant to go into a regular house BTW)
The authorities were well aware of this community...they had been watching it for two years. They knew that illegal activity (polygamy and underage marriages) was going on, but they could not do anything about it since it was a religious community and they could not go in until there was a complaint from the inside. This call from the girl was what they needed to be able to get a warrant to get in. Now that they've found underage girls who are pregnant, there is clearly illegal activity going on. But if they can't find the girl who made the call or find out it was faked, even though they have clear evidence of something illegal taking place, nothing can be done because the warrant was invalid.
This is just too depressing..
I first heard about polygamy when Warren Jeffs was featured on America's Most Wanted. I couldn't believe other girls were forced to marry at such a young age!!! It just goes to show how ignorant I was.
I can't say much about this particular case. I just hope everything works out for these families and I hope the girl who called is safe. I hope they find her.
I first heard about polygamy when Warren Jeffs was featured on America's Most Wanted. I couldn't believe other girls were forced to marry at such a young age!!! It just goes to show how ignorant I was.
I can't say much about this particular case. I just hope everything works out for these families and I hope the girl who called is safe. I hope they find her.
I understand that the state could not do anything about the polygamy and underaged marriages (which are probably not legal, anyway), they can hardly spy into private bedrooms. I don't understsand how a religious cult can separate itself from a community to an extent that children are not registered in their local community (i.e. getting a birth certificate with date of birth, name, name of parents) and do not get a part of the community automatically including infancy health care and other benefits.
I know about the Amish but in Germany their schools would be subject to state control, all schools must fulfill certain criteria even though a religious school may put more emphasis on religious education. If the school does not comply the children must attend a state school, that's the law. Home schooling is not an option. I know that magical home schools her daughter and one of our former QZ chat room operators was home schooled, so it's probably okay when the parents are open minded and provide for intellectual variety but basically a child needs the school as a place of social learning as much as for aquiring knowledge. Certainly a religious cult should not have this option.
I know about the Amish but in Germany their schools would be subject to state control, all schools must fulfill certain criteria even though a religious school may put more emphasis on religious education. If the school does not comply the children must attend a state school, that's the law. Home schooling is not an option. I know that magical home schools her daughter and one of our former QZ chat room operators was home schooled, so it's probably okay when the parents are open minded and provide for intellectual variety but basically a child needs the school as a place of social learning as much as for aquiring knowledge. Certainly a religious cult should not have this option.
I fully agree with you. There was a woman who works at the bakery I used to work at, and she "home schooled" her daughters. But soon she ran out of time to do it, so she put her daughters into public schools. Well, that wound up being a giant mess because the girls had to be started 2 grades back because the mother had not taught them anything other than "arts and crafts" time and the youngest daughter couldn't even read. Not to mention the socialization trouble those children hand....Home schooling is not necessarily a bad option, if the parents are qualified to be able to teach. But if they aren't...well, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
To be honest I'm not sure how these groups operate as far as birth and things. If these children are born on the cult grounds in their own medical center (a distinct possibility) then they wouldn't ever be registered with the government at all in all likelihood. If they are born at an outside hospital, they are given a birth certificate and what not, but you don't have to put the name of the father on the certificate if you do not tell them who it is; that is one of the problems they are dealing with right now with all of these children...they can't figure out who belongs to who.
Religious liberty is the freedom that is most strongly identified with in the US, especially by the fathers of the country. They purposely gave groups all of these rights because they were all about religious liberty. As this case demonstrates, it does certainly have its problems. But there is no way any lawmaker in the US would try to create laws that would trample religious liberty...their political career would be very short and ineffective.
Everything this group does is illegal. Polygamy is illegal in all 50 states, US territories and at the Federal level. Texas even changed their marriage laws so that no one under the age of 16 can get married even WITH parental consent as a direct result of this sect. So underage marriages are all illegal. But because this is a recognized religious group, they are given the freedom to do whatever they want until they either become a direct threat to the outside community (killing people who live around them or something like that) or there is a complaint made from inside. I hope they find the girl who made the call, but I have a bad feeling she won't show herself to authorities, and the whole case will fall apart.
To be honest I'm not sure how these groups operate as far as birth and things. If these children are born on the cult grounds in their own medical center (a distinct possibility) then they wouldn't ever be registered with the government at all in all likelihood. If they are born at an outside hospital, they are given a birth certificate and what not, but you don't have to put the name of the father on the certificate if you do not tell them who it is; that is one of the problems they are dealing with right now with all of these children...they can't figure out who belongs to who.
Religious liberty is the freedom that is most strongly identified with in the US, especially by the fathers of the country. They purposely gave groups all of these rights because they were all about religious liberty. As this case demonstrates, it does certainly have its problems. But there is no way any lawmaker in the US would try to create laws that would trample religious liberty...their political career would be very short and ineffective.
Everything this group does is illegal. Polygamy is illegal in all 50 states, US territories and at the Federal level. Texas even changed their marriage laws so that no one under the age of 16 can get married even WITH parental consent as a direct result of this sect. So underage marriages are all illegal. But because this is a recognized religious group, they are given the freedom to do whatever they want until they either become a direct threat to the outside community (killing people who live around them or something like that) or there is a complaint made from inside. I hope they find the girl who made the call, but I have a bad feeling she won't show herself to authorities, and the whole case will fall apart.
As for homeschooling... ;-)
Each state has its own regulations. New York is one of the tougher states. We have to report to the district several times during the course of a school year. And there are standardized tests every other year the children have to take. If they fail to show grade level advancements, the process is put on probation and they must follow through with evaluations.
It is not that way in many other states - most especially not in the Bible Belt, of which Texas is a part. Their homeschooling options are more lenient and religiously based. It's not uncommon for families to remove their children from school specifically for religious reasons. In fact, that's why when most people hear about homeschooling, they automatically cringe, thinking you want to isolate your child the way many of the bible belt people seem to do.
As for socialization... in schools it's not exactly ideal. When a child is properly homeschooled, their socialization skills improve dramatically over their public-schooled peers. They interact with a variety of people of all ages and abilities. Many homeschooled children volunteer at various places of business and must learn to communicate properly - with courtesy, intelligence and professionalism. Socialization in schools is hardly courteous, sometimes intelligent and rarely, if ever, professional.
I know that was off topic, but I had to get it in there. Hijack over. :-)
Each state has its own regulations. New York is one of the tougher states. We have to report to the district several times during the course of a school year. And there are standardized tests every other year the children have to take. If they fail to show grade level advancements, the process is put on probation and they must follow through with evaluations.
It is not that way in many other states - most especially not in the Bible Belt, of which Texas is a part. Their homeschooling options are more lenient and religiously based. It's not uncommon for families to remove their children from school specifically for religious reasons. In fact, that's why when most people hear about homeschooling, they automatically cringe, thinking you want to isolate your child the way many of the bible belt people seem to do.
As for socialization... in schools it's not exactly ideal. When a child is properly homeschooled, their socialization skills improve dramatically over their public-schooled peers. They interact with a variety of people of all ages and abilities. Many homeschooled children volunteer at various places of business and must learn to communicate properly - with courtesy, intelligence and professionalism. Socialization in schools is hardly courteous, sometimes intelligent and rarely, if ever, professional.
I know that was off topic, but I had to get it in there. Hijack over. :-)