[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME]As for homeschooling... ;-)
Each state has its own regulations. New York is one of the tougher states. We have to report to the district several times during the course of a school year. And there are standardized tests every other year the children have to take. If they fail to show grade level advancements, the process is put on probation and they must follow through with evaluations.
It is not that way in many other states - most especially not in the Bible Belt, of which Texas is a part. Their homeschooling options are more lenient and religiously based. It's not uncommon for families to remove their children from school specifically for religious reasons. In fact, that's why when most people hear about homeschooling, they automatically cringe, thinking you want to isolate your child the way many of the bible belt people seem to do.
As for socialization... in schools it's not exactly ideal. When a child is properly homeschooled, their socialization skills improve dramatically over their public-schooled peers. They interact with a variety of people of all ages and abilities. Many homeschooled children volunteer at various places of business and must learn to communicate properly - with courtesy, intelligence and professionalism. Socialization in schools is hardly courteous, sometimes intelligent and rarely, if ever, professional.
I know that was off topic, but i had to get it in there. Hijack over. :-)
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I know several children that are currently being homeschooled and they are very bright and well spoken, and very outgoing and social. They are involved in social activities with other homeschooled children and I believe this experience has enriched their lives. I don't know how many of you remember Miss James who was a long term member here, but she was homeschooled and today she is a bright, articulate, intelligent young woman and doing very well in life.
:-)
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Indeed Magical and Janet! Homes chooling can be a wonderful thing. Even though I do not have children yet, I can tell you after teaching the products of our public schools for the last two years, the option of home-schooling any children I have is starting to look darn good! At least I could ensure they are safe, getting a good education and getting all of the benefits that you both mention. I simply meant to point out that home schooling is a double edge sword...see the example of the woman I worked with. Her children couldn't read because her idea of "home school" was a constant barrage of arts and crafts! Not to mention her kids how have a lot of "behavior issues" because they do not know how to socialize since she kept them locked up at home all the time. Like I said, if it's well regulated (as it appears to be in New York) and the parents are qualified, there are no problems with it. It's when it's not well regulated it becomes an issue, which as Magical points out is more common in the Bible Belt (which I'm starting to believe Michigan is part of the longer I live here). I surely didn't mean to cause anyone offense and apologize if I did!
Yes, I already mentioned Magical and Allie - I am sure responsible parents can do a good job in home schooling. In my opinion it should still be the very last resort because school is such a vital task for the whole society and it should be supervised by the state and it should be constantly improved for all children. We have various public and private school, run by the state, private institutions, churches. All schools need to be approved by the state (they are also mostly funded by the state) and it would be totally impossible that a church removes their children from state supervision to an extent as happened in Texas.
I really think we have such different roots - The USA was more or less founded by people who left their home country to be able to exercise their religion with no interference by the state while here in Europe schooling is so much a social issue because education used to be a privilege for the rich people and later it was a place where children were brainwashed by the Nazis. To guarantee a good education for everyone and to avoid any kind of ideolical indoctrination of the children is the common goal of the state and the parents these days. We still have religion taught in schools (which is wrong in my opinion)but most religious teaching happens in the churches - where it belongs imo.
Also, the idea that new born children are not registered as citizens in their community is very strange to me. A child his entitled to citizen rights and protection and has to be registered. There are still enough parents who are ignorant and don't know about support and infancy health care they are entitled to. Also, registration helps to avoid child labor and ensures that all children go to a school by the age of 6.
I really think we have such different roots - The USA was more or less founded by people who left their home country to be able to exercise their religion with no interference by the state while here in Europe schooling is so much a social issue because education used to be a privilege for the rich people and later it was a place where children were brainwashed by the Nazis. To guarantee a good education for everyone and to avoid any kind of ideolical indoctrination of the children is the common goal of the state and the parents these days. We still have religion taught in schools (which is wrong in my opinion)but most religious teaching happens in the churches - where it belongs imo.
Also, the idea that new born children are not registered as citizens in their community is very strange to me. A child his entitled to citizen rights and protection and has to be registered. There are still enough parents who are ignorant and don't know about support and infancy health care they are entitled to. Also, registration helps to avoid child labor and ensures that all children go to a school by the age of 6.
One thing I don't get which is also what YV thinks (I think), is how the hell did this go on for so long without anyone noticing? These people were on that land away from everyone, and they had to have been registered citizens. They must of been total recluses if the children weren't registered citizens when they were born. There must be things like this elsewhere too. It's really disgusting.
A lot of things can happen when you live in the middle of nowhere.
And for officials to investigate, they need warrants with probable cause. If the cult keeps to itself and doesn't talk to authorities, then how do officials get to investigate? The only reason this broke was because someone called in, though now they're saying the original call was a hoax.
And for officials to investigate, they need warrants with probable cause. If the cult keeps to itself and doesn't talk to authorities, then how do officials get to investigate? The only reason this broke was because someone called in, though now they're saying the original call was a hoax.
Well spoken again Maz. Pleasure to have someone like you on the thread!
@ Jacob...the authorities were not unaware of the existence of this group of people. If you look at the arial photos of the church they built, no one for MILES would be unaware of this group. The problem was they did not have the right to go in. They are a religious group, and as long as they are not causing harm to the outside community, the hands of the authorities are tied.
Interesting addition: I heard on thew news this morning while I was getting ready that they are investigating some woman in Colorado as a "person of interest" about the call. Sounds like she might have faked the call to authorities. If that's the case, this is over and done with. The children will have to go back, and the church will probably either become even MORE closed or move to another location (they had moved to Texas originally because the authorities in Utah were coming down on them hard).
@ Jacob...the authorities were not unaware of the existence of this group of people. If you look at the arial photos of the church they built, no one for MILES would be unaware of this group. The problem was they did not have the right to go in. They are a religious group, and as long as they are not causing harm to the outside community, the hands of the authorities are tied.
Interesting addition: I heard on thew news this morning while I was getting ready that they are investigating some woman in Colorado as a "person of interest" about the call. Sounds like she might have faked the call to authorities. If that's the case, this is over and done with. The children will have to go back, and the church will probably either become even MORE closed or move to another location (they had moved to Texas originally because the authorities in Utah were coming down on them hard).
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]HistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME]It's when it's not well regulated it becomes an issue, which as Magical points out is more common in the Bible Belt (which I'm starting to believe Michigan is part of the longer I live here). I surely didn't mean to cause anyone offense and apologize if I did! [/QUOTE]
My aunt, who lives in Alabama, decided to home school her daughter. I believe it was because she was getting teased in her Christian private school. :-S Anyway, I have to wonder what kind of education my cousin is getting. My aunt is in no way qualified to teach. Plus, she also has a 1 year old daughter to look after. I think they only spend 2-3 hours a day in "school." Apparently, they do have to go to some homeschool meetings every so often. I don't know whether they check on the child's progress or what in those meetings. I should add my aunt is a religious nutcase, so they are probably incorporating Jesus into the math lessons somehow.
My aunt, who lives in Alabama, decided to home school her daughter. I believe it was because she was getting teased in her Christian private school. :-S Anyway, I have to wonder what kind of education my cousin is getting. My aunt is in no way qualified to teach. Plus, she also has a 1 year old daughter to look after. I think they only spend 2-3 hours a day in "school." Apparently, they do have to go to some homeschool meetings every so often. I don't know whether they check on the child's progress or what in those meetings. I should add my aunt is a religious nutcase, so they are probably incorporating Jesus into the math lessons somehow.
Different states have different regulations governing home-schooled kids. I'm sure Magical and explain better what kind of regulations she has to follow and how they determine if a student is receiving a proper education.
Unfortunately, some states (including the one I presently reside in) do not require any oversight or regulation into homeschooled children. Parents are essentially free to do whatever they want, which for some means very little.
And I'm just trying to keep the intelligence going, Maggie :)
Unfortunately, some states (including the one I presently reside in) do not require any oversight or regulation into homeschooled children. Parents are essentially free to do whatever they want, which for some means very little.
And I'm just trying to keep the intelligence going, Maggie :)
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]HistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Interesting addition: I heard on thew news this morning while I was getting ready that they are investigating some woman in Colorado as a "person of interest" about the call. Sounds like she might have faked the call to authorities. If that's the case, this is over and done with. The children will have to go back, and the church will probably either become even MORE closed or move to another location (they had moved to Texas originally because the authorities in Utah were coming down on them hard). [/QUOTE]
What of the "lost boys", as they're called? The young boys in the cult who are turned out onto the streets because they're seen as competition to the elder men - as in the gorilla world, though I dare say the gorilla world seems more civilized than this. They're no longer part of the community but they do have first-hand information about what goes on in there. I wonder... does anyone know if their statements can be used to investigate this sect?
Interesting addition: I heard on thew news this morning while I was getting ready that they are investigating some woman in Colorado as a "person of interest" about the call. Sounds like she might have faked the call to authorities. If that's the case, this is over and done with. The children will have to go back, and the church will probably either become even MORE closed or move to another location (they had moved to Texas originally because the authorities in Utah were coming down on them hard). [/QUOTE]
What of the "lost boys", as they're called? The young boys in the cult who are turned out onto the streets because they're seen as competition to the elder men - as in the gorilla world, though I dare say the gorilla world seems more civilized than this. They're no longer part of the community but they do have first-hand information about what goes on in there. I wonder... does anyone know if their statements can be used to investigate this sect?
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Erin wrote: [/QUOTENAME] Anyway, I have to wonder what kind of education my cousin is getting. My aunt is in no way qualified to teach. Plus, she also has a 1 year old daughter to look after. I think they only spend 2-3 hours a day in "school." Apparently, they do have to go to some homeschool meetings every so often. I don't know whether they check on the child's progress or what in those meetings. I should add my aunt is a religious nutcase, so they are probably incorporating Jesus into the math lessons somehow.
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The interesting thing about homeschooling is indeed the amount of work that can fit into a small amount of time. When you're working one-on-one, you have a much better sense of what the child learns quickly and what the child needs to work with more. We can finish an entire day's lessons in three hours at home, whereas, in school, the same work could take double that. The children don't have to wait for a bell to tell them to start, they don't have to pack up their books and travel the halls to the next class. But neither can they can't hide, hoping someone else gets called on because they don't know the answer. ;-) They can break when they're tired and pick it back up later when they're refreshed. And, they can break up their learning with real-life activities rather than sitting for hours with their heads in a book.
About being qualified to teach... most people aren't. However, (most) parents are responsible for teaching their children the basics - walking, speaking, table manners, car safety, counting, coloring. Parents teach that, parents who are not trained teachers. It (usually) comes naturally. And as a child's curiosity soars, parents, somehow, keep up.
The best part about working with my daughter this way as opposed to the other way (public schooling) is that I know what she's working on and can be reintroduced to it as she learns it for the first time. It's amazing what conversations occur because of her lessons - especially science and social studies.
Parents didn't just appear as grown ups with kids. They went through school, studied and learned most of what their children are learning now. The hardest thing for a homeschooling parent, I think, is saying to their child, "I have no idea what that means." But then they follow it up with, "Let's find out."
I'd like to think the religious fanatics who homeschool their children by only teaching them 'facts' from the bible, etc, are few and far between. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that's the case, though I've yet to meet a family like that. The support group I belong to withdrew their children from school in order to give them a more thorough and rounded education. As homeschooling becomes more mainstream, I think that concept of homeschooling will take a firm hold and muscle out the more reclusive type who are now hiding in plain sight.
Just for clarity, here's a great video regarding an issue at the top of many homeschooling parents' lists -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dAujuqCo7s
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The interesting thing about homeschooling is indeed the amount of work that can fit into a small amount of time. When you're working one-on-one, you have a much better sense of what the child learns quickly and what the child needs to work with more. We can finish an entire day's lessons in three hours at home, whereas, in school, the same work could take double that. The children don't have to wait for a bell to tell them to start, they don't have to pack up their books and travel the halls to the next class. But neither can they can't hide, hoping someone else gets called on because they don't know the answer. ;-) They can break when they're tired and pick it back up later when they're refreshed. And, they can break up their learning with real-life activities rather than sitting for hours with their heads in a book.
About being qualified to teach... most people aren't. However, (most) parents are responsible for teaching their children the basics - walking, speaking, table manners, car safety, counting, coloring. Parents teach that, parents who are not trained teachers. It (usually) comes naturally. And as a child's curiosity soars, parents, somehow, keep up.
The best part about working with my daughter this way as opposed to the other way (public schooling) is that I know what she's working on and can be reintroduced to it as she learns it for the first time. It's amazing what conversations occur because of her lessons - especially science and social studies.
Parents didn't just appear as grown ups with kids. They went through school, studied and learned most of what their children are learning now. The hardest thing for a homeschooling parent, I think, is saying to their child, "I have no idea what that means." But then they follow it up with, "Let's find out."
I'd like to think the religious fanatics who homeschool their children by only teaching them 'facts' from the bible, etc, are few and far between. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that's the case, though I've yet to meet a family like that. The support group I belong to withdrew their children from school in order to give them a more thorough and rounded education. As homeschooling becomes more mainstream, I think that concept of homeschooling will take a firm hold and muscle out the more reclusive type who are now hiding in plain sight.
Just for clarity, here's a great video regarding an issue at the top of many homeschooling parents' lists -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dAujuqCo7s
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]HistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Interesting addition: I heard on thew news this morning while I was getting ready that they are investigating some woman in Colorado as a "person of interest" about the call. Sounds like she might have faked the call to authorities. If that's the case, this is over and done with. The children will have to go back, and the church will probably either become even MORE closed or move to another location (they had moved to Texas originally because the authorities in Utah were coming down on them hard). [/QUOTE]
What of the "lost boys", as they're called? The young boys in the cult who are turned out onto the streets because they're seen as competition to the elder men - as in the gorilla world, though I dare say the gorilla world seems more civilized than this. They're no longer part of the community but they do have first-hand information about what goes on in there. I wonder... does anyone know if their statements can be used to investigate this sect?
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@ Maz....and I appreciate that. There are so few of us around these days it seems. I only wish I could talk to you more :-)
@ Magical....that's a good question actually. I'm not entirely sure if there are any lost boys associated with this particular cult. From what I understand, they moved to Texas to escape the authorities in Utah, who were getting close to breaking them. This particular sect is supposed to be hand-picked by Warren Jeffs; the BEST of the BEST when it comes to loyalty. There may not be any lost boys who can give information on this specific sect, though I know they use their statements in Utah against some of the sects there.
Of course the problem is, these lost boys have also been indoctrinated to not trust the outside world, being told the leaving the community is a sin worse than murder (according to an article by the Associated Press on them). But they are often told that they can return if they come back with a wife. So how many of them would be willing to talk to the authorities about what is going on is a major factor, since most of them probably are just trying to cope, find a woman they can take back to the community and resume their lives in the world they know. I'm guessing not many of them are willing to talk, either out of the eventual goal of returning to the community or out of fear that they'd implicate themselves or their families in illegal activity if they were to talk.
The identification issue is going nuts....apparently they are now cheek swabbing all the children so they can run DNA tests to figure out who belongs to who. They still don't even know yet if they can hold these kids as the phone call giving them the warrant may have been a hoax, and now they are taking DNA from the kids (likely without parental permission since they don't know who the parent's are). This isn't going to go down well.
Interesting addition: I heard on thew news this morning while I was getting ready that they are investigating some woman in Colorado as a "person of interest" about the call. Sounds like she might have faked the call to authorities. If that's the case, this is over and done with. The children will have to go back, and the church will probably either become even MORE closed or move to another location (they had moved to Texas originally because the authorities in Utah were coming down on them hard). [/QUOTE]
What of the "lost boys", as they're called? The young boys in the cult who are turned out onto the streets because they're seen as competition to the elder men - as in the gorilla world, though I dare say the gorilla world seems more civilized than this. They're no longer part of the community but they do have first-hand information about what goes on in there. I wonder... does anyone know if their statements can be used to investigate this sect?
[/QUOTE]
@ Maz....and I appreciate that. There are so few of us around these days it seems. I only wish I could talk to you more :-)
@ Magical....that's a good question actually. I'm not entirely sure if there are any lost boys associated with this particular cult. From what I understand, they moved to Texas to escape the authorities in Utah, who were getting close to breaking them. This particular sect is supposed to be hand-picked by Warren Jeffs; the BEST of the BEST when it comes to loyalty. There may not be any lost boys who can give information on this specific sect, though I know they use their statements in Utah against some of the sects there.
Of course the problem is, these lost boys have also been indoctrinated to not trust the outside world, being told the leaving the community is a sin worse than murder (according to an article by the Associated Press on them). But they are often told that they can return if they come back with a wife. So how many of them would be willing to talk to the authorities about what is going on is a major factor, since most of them probably are just trying to cope, find a woman they can take back to the community and resume their lives in the world they know. I'm guessing not many of them are willing to talk, either out of the eventual goal of returning to the community or out of fear that they'd implicate themselves or their families in illegal activity if they were to talk.
The identification issue is going nuts....apparently they are now cheek swabbing all the children so they can run DNA tests to figure out who belongs to who. They still don't even know yet if they can hold these kids as the phone call giving them the warrant may have been a hoax, and now they are taking DNA from the kids (likely without parental permission since they don't know who the parent's are). This isn't going to go down well.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]HistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
So how many of them would be willing to talk to the authorities about what is going on is a major factor, since most of them probably are just trying to cope, find a woman they can take back to the community and resume their lives in the world they know. I'm guessing not many of them are willing to talk, either out of the eventual goal of returning to the community or out of fear that they'd implicate themselves or their families in illegal activity if they were to talk. [/QUOTE]
I hadn't thought of it this way but it makes perfect sense. Just as we would resist attempts by them to be sucked into their world, they would do so in ours - more so for them because they fear their souls are at stake. How awful for them.
So how many of them would be willing to talk to the authorities about what is going on is a major factor, since most of them probably are just trying to cope, find a woman they can take back to the community and resume their lives in the world they know. I'm guessing not many of them are willing to talk, either out of the eventual goal of returning to the community or out of fear that they'd implicate themselves or their families in illegal activity if they were to talk. [/QUOTE]
I hadn't thought of it this way but it makes perfect sense. Just as we would resist attempts by them to be sucked into their world, they would do so in ours - more so for them because they fear their souls are at stake. How awful for them.
Sorry for jumping on this one late. I check this section rarely these days!
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME]The terror they must be experiencing is too great to imagine.[/QUOTE]
I saw one of the youngsters interviewed on TV... a girl of 16 or 17. Great head on her shoulders, and totally had come to terms with what she went through... not traumatized at all. She gave off a vibe that she knew there was an alternative from day one, and stayed positive. I hope there are more like her.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Erin wrote: [/QUOTENAME]I should add my aunt is a religious nutcase, so they are probably incorporating Jesus into the math lessons somehow.[/QUOTE]
He was illiterate, so he probably couldn't have counted to 5. There, a mathematical connection!
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME]The terror they must be experiencing is too great to imagine.[/QUOTE]
I saw one of the youngsters interviewed on TV... a girl of 16 or 17. Great head on her shoulders, and totally had come to terms with what she went through... not traumatized at all. She gave off a vibe that she knew there was an alternative from day one, and stayed positive. I hope there are more like her.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Erin wrote: [/QUOTENAME]I should add my aunt is a religious nutcase, so they are probably incorporating Jesus into the math lessons somehow.[/QUOTE]
He was illiterate, so he probably couldn't have counted to 5. There, a mathematical connection!
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Sorry for jumping on this one late. I check this section rarely these days!
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME]The terror they must be experiencing is too great to imagine.[/QUOTE]
I saw one of the youngsters interviewed on TV... a girl of 16 or 17. Great head on her shoulders, and totally had come to terms with what she went through... not traumatized at all. She gave off a vibe that she knew there was an alternative from day one, and stayed positive. I hope there are more like her.
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Personally, I wish you'd stop by here more often, Sir GH.
I also wish I'd seen this interview. If her reactions are real, then I'm with you and hope there are more like her. However, if she was one of the girls who'd been beaten and raped, then I can't help but doubt her apparent composure.
Intellect tells an abuse survivor they've made it, they're out of that situation and can move on. The problem with that is their psyche isn't given a chance to address what happened so it doesn't truly heal. Often, it's a facade, just another way in which the human spirit fights to survive. While I hope that's not the case here, I can't help but wonder.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/QUOTENAME]The terror they must be experiencing is too great to imagine.[/QUOTE]
I saw one of the youngsters interviewed on TV... a girl of 16 or 17. Great head on her shoulders, and totally had come to terms with what she went through... not traumatized at all. She gave off a vibe that she knew there was an alternative from day one, and stayed positive. I hope there are more like her.
[/QUOTE]
Personally, I wish you'd stop by here more often, Sir GH.
I also wish I'd seen this interview. If her reactions are real, then I'm with you and hope there are more like her. However, if she was one of the girls who'd been beaten and raped, then I can't help but doubt her apparent composure.
Intellect tells an abuse survivor they've made it, they're out of that situation and can move on. The problem with that is their psyche isn't given a chance to address what happened so it doesn't truly heal. Often, it's a facade, just another way in which the human spirit fights to survive. While I hope that's not the case here, I can't help but wonder.
Better late than never.