[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]MasterHistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Reasoning with a child is like trying to reason with a pet; children simply do not have the mental capacity to understand reasoning until they are nearly teenagers. [/QUOTE]
And then it all goes away COMPLETELY for another 5 years!!!!
(Parents, I see you giving me that "knowing nod")
This issue is very close to me, as my 13 year old prepares for 8th grade and life as a teenager. I hope I've done the right thing, and what I've done wrong I've learned from.
[QUOTE]It's nice to have such a spirited debate on here again, I was wondering if those days were behind us. Excellent points, everybody.[/QUOTE]
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^^ agreed. im glad to see a good healthy debate.
and im glad people agree with me for once, and gave me the time of day :) i like seeing this, and it helps me in knowing other people see it like i have too, and i dont feel so crazy.
and im glad people agree with me for once, and gave me the time of day :) i like seeing this, and it helps me in knowing other people see it like i have too, and i dont feel so crazy.
@ Microwave: I live in a city with 200 000 people and I was never harrassed or molested in my life. Not in school as a child and not as an adult - ever. Agreed, I would not walk around in the "drug area" (around the main station) at 2 in the morning by myself but other than that I feel safe. The crime rate just is not so high here as in the United States, that's a fact and I don't know the reason. Parents do not watch over their kids when they play outside each and every minute. That does not mean that crimes don't happen but the idea that a whole nation has to learn self defense is very strange for me. We also do not have hand guns to protect ourselves or our homes. I do NOT say it's not my problem because it happens elsewhere, on the contary. I think we have a collective responsibility for all children in our country.
As to the money issue: I am not saying that showering schools with money with no thinking does the trick. All I am saying is that society has to come up with a solution for children whose parents are unable (for whatever reason) to teach them the very basics like discipline, listening to teachers, come to school regularly and do the homeworks and most of all: not to bully other children. In fact these problems are mostly in cities with high poverty and unemployment rate(unemployment is a much bigger problem here than in the USA). Still most parents do teach their children in a normal way.
Yes, I think education is the better and more human and more effective way to solve such problems than teaching everybody Karate. It needs a social effort (and money!) but it can be done.
Apparently, we are discussing two different phenomena here: on the one hand overprotective parents who do not teach their children that it needs effort to succeed in life and who make their children unfit for life that way and on the other hand uncaring parents who simply neglect the children and make them unfit that way. Both extremes have to be challenged in school and in life or else we give up on our future.
As to the money issue: I am not saying that showering schools with money with no thinking does the trick. All I am saying is that society has to come up with a solution for children whose parents are unable (for whatever reason) to teach them the very basics like discipline, listening to teachers, come to school regularly and do the homeworks and most of all: not to bully other children. In fact these problems are mostly in cities with high poverty and unemployment rate(unemployment is a much bigger problem here than in the USA). Still most parents do teach their children in a normal way.
Yes, I think education is the better and more human and more effective way to solve such problems than teaching everybody Karate. It needs a social effort (and money!) but it can be done.
Apparently, we are discussing two different phenomena here: on the one hand overprotective parents who do not teach their children that it needs effort to succeed in life and who make their children unfit for life that way and on the other hand uncaring parents who simply neglect the children and make them unfit that way. Both extremes have to be challenged in school and in life or else we give up on our future.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]YourValentine wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Both extremes have to be challenged in school and in life or else we give up on our future.[/QUOTE]
I love the way you describe your area. I WISH children here could go out and play without supervision or ride their bikes through the neighborhood like my generation did as kids. Maybe they can... the area I live is isn't really 'bad'. But we hear so much and realize no one else is going to look out for our kids that we can't take the chance.
Used to be... there were neighborhoods with people who knew one another. The kids from the block got together and between the occasional check from each parent, those kids were safe. it was the 'it takes a village' mentality. Not now. Neighborhoods are more transient, less neighborly - at least where I live. Kids are on their own much more now than ever. They need to learn how to be safe and how to protect themselves at a much younger age than ever before... and not because of the majority but because of the random nut who decides to nab one here and there.
As for the schools - I have the feeling the attitude toward school is very different where you live than here. School is not a place to learn manners and morals. First, they barely have the time or ability to teach academics. Second, whose morals are we going by? Parents as a whole would think - Who is going to teach my child what's right and wrong, and will what that person thinks is right coincide with my views? And if half the children are not receiving guidance or discipline at home, how much disruption will that create? How much time and attention will they take from the other children? And where does it stop? Teachers are not nannies, school is not day care. Kids are supposed to go there to learn history, science, math... to expand their minds. Not be taught the basics of proper behavior. Thats supposed to happen at home. Whether it does isn't the responsibility of the school system.
I took my daughter out of school and am homeschooling her for this and other reasons. There is no 'control' in the schools. It's a village problem but the village elders are too busy working full time to deal with that problem... yet they do not want someone else to handle it for them. It's Catch 22 and our kids are the ones who suffer.
Both extremes have to be challenged in school and in life or else we give up on our future.[/QUOTE]
I love the way you describe your area. I WISH children here could go out and play without supervision or ride their bikes through the neighborhood like my generation did as kids. Maybe they can... the area I live is isn't really 'bad'. But we hear so much and realize no one else is going to look out for our kids that we can't take the chance.
Used to be... there were neighborhoods with people who knew one another. The kids from the block got together and between the occasional check from each parent, those kids were safe. it was the 'it takes a village' mentality. Not now. Neighborhoods are more transient, less neighborly - at least where I live. Kids are on their own much more now than ever. They need to learn how to be safe and how to protect themselves at a much younger age than ever before... and not because of the majority but because of the random nut who decides to nab one here and there.
As for the schools - I have the feeling the attitude toward school is very different where you live than here. School is not a place to learn manners and morals. First, they barely have the time or ability to teach academics. Second, whose morals are we going by? Parents as a whole would think - Who is going to teach my child what's right and wrong, and will what that person thinks is right coincide with my views? And if half the children are not receiving guidance or discipline at home, how much disruption will that create? How much time and attention will they take from the other children? And where does it stop? Teachers are not nannies, school is not day care. Kids are supposed to go there to learn history, science, math... to expand their minds. Not be taught the basics of proper behavior. Thats supposed to happen at home. Whether it does isn't the responsibility of the school system.
I took my daughter out of school and am homeschooling her for this and other reasons. There is no 'control' in the schools. It's a village problem but the village elders are too busy working full time to deal with that problem... yet they do not want someone else to handle it for them. It's Catch 22 and our kids are the ones who suffer.
It's not all roses in my country, I hope I made that clear. But there seems to be a different idea of schools, in fact. We seem to have the same problem with children who come to school and are unable to concentrate, to follow the most basic instructions, to show up in time, bring the required books, do the required homework and such minimum skills. Severe cases are sent to a year of preparational school where such basics are taught. This problem is comparatively new in my country.
Apart from that schools in Germany do have the task to educate children. I don't think there is much reason to be worried about taking education privileges away from the parents. Schools ideally teach children to share, to get along with other children from various background, to team up with other kids to achieve something, to solve conflicts in a non-violent way and the list goes on. Of course there are conflicts between parents and school but usually not about such educational issues.
Apart from that schools in Germany do have the task to educate children. I don't think there is much reason to be worried about taking education privileges away from the parents. Schools ideally teach children to share, to get along with other children from various background, to team up with other kids to achieve something, to solve conflicts in a non-violent way and the list goes on. Of course there are conflicts between parents and school but usually not about such educational issues.
I really do wish that self defense was not something that some people would feel pressured to do. But it's reality; hiding from it does no good at all. The point with teaching a child Karate isn't to have them take down the attacker; as Microwave pointed out no child stands a chance against an adult attacker or kidnapper. The point of it is that the child will be able to raise a fuss. Kidnappers are not going to waste their time trying to take a child that is fighting back with them and throwing a major fit, because it raises the attention of others in the area. That's why the safest thing to do is simply to run away and yell and scream (and this works for young women as well), because if you are drawing attention to yourself and the situation it is almost certain that someone else will intervene, which is a risk to the attacker. I wish that we lived in a world where I could walk around anywhere without anyone, but that's being naive. When I was in Glasgow in December last year, my friend Jaap constantly walked with me everywhere, including walking me back to the place I was staying in after we were done hanging out for the day (Glasgow has a HUGE knife problem). Do I wish that wasn't necessary? Yeah. Was it slightly annoying that Jaap felt the need to do that? Sure, cause I hate to burden anyone. But he and I both recognized that it's reality. It's far better to be safe than sorry.
And Barb I do agree with you that schools should help the situation. But schools can't do it all; there simply isn't enough time in the day. Their purpose is to educate, and they can't do that effectively if they are having to teach basic lessons that their parents should have taught them. It's when the schools started taking over some of that stuff that parents said, "OK, well they are getting it at school so there isn't a need for us to do it too." Sad, but true.
And Barb I do agree with you that schools should help the situation. But schools can't do it all; there simply isn't enough time in the day. Their purpose is to educate, and they can't do that effectively if they are having to teach basic lessons that their parents should have taught them. It's when the schools started taking over some of that stuff that parents said, "OK, well they are getting it at school so there isn't a need for us to do it too." Sad, but true.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]MasterHistoryGirl wrote: [/QUOTENAME]And Barb I do agree with you that schools should help the situation. But schools can't do it all; there simply isn't enough time in the day. Their purpose is to educate, and they can't do that effectively if they are having to teach basic lessons that their parents should have taught them. It's when the schools started taking over some of that stuff that parents said, "OK, well they are getting it at school so there isn't a need for us to do it too." Sad, but true.
[/QUOTE]
exactly.
[/QUOTE]
exactly.
In the US, schools are governed at a municipal, state, and federal level, in that order. From my understanding, the federal level has very little to do with education in the United States, except with the occasional nigh-pointless standardization; the municipal level deals with the direction, operation, finances, and other relevant issues of the school (through school boards); the state level is generally for legislation and cohesiveness.
Someone mentioned something about this earlier, and I felt it might be interesting to compare/contrast, or whatnot. Or maybe not.
Someone mentioned something about this earlier, and I felt it might be interesting to compare/contrast, or whatnot. Or maybe not.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Ms. Rebel wrote: [/QUOTENAME]I'm moving to another planet.[/QUOTE]
Ugh, forget leaving the planet.
*Packs suitcases*
Let's all organise a mass exodus of the universe.
Ugh, forget leaving the planet.
*Packs suitcases*
Let's all organise a mass exodus of the universe.
Get the little shits working, that's what I say.
@ MusicMan - it's similar here: schools are state business, the states write the curriculae, employ the teachers and decide all legal issues. The cities provide the buildings, maintain them, and are responsible for the safety of the school etc. Cities can decide which kind of schools they provide in addition to elementary school (year 1-4)and "main school" (year 5-9, no higher education) which are mandatory.
@ Maggie and Lady Nyx - we have a tradition of school responsibility for the well being of children. After the war all schools provided for a daily meal which was the only food most children were given on a regular basis. Many more children would have starved if it had not been for the school meals. I remember that my father, who started as a teacher in a little village in the 1950s, told us that he used to have a shower with the (male!!) children once a week because in the rural area most kids simply did not wash and the families had no bathrooms. It was my mother's job to take the girls to the shower :-) In my own childhood all children were still routinely checked by a dentist once a year and we still had school milk offered to poorer kids. I think it's not a bad thing when society ensures that children get what they need because it's not their fault when the parents are poor, uncaring or unfit parents. The children need to be looked after, it's a basic right. If they need to be made "school fit" and the parents do not do it, the school must come up with a solution. Luckily, most parents do educate their children.
In the same way the schools must offer language help for children from immigration families which has been neglected for a long time because Germany expected people to come here to work and then leave. Only when we had over a million third generation children with poor language skills, the states started to recognize the problem.
@ Maggie and Lady Nyx - we have a tradition of school responsibility for the well being of children. After the war all schools provided for a daily meal which was the only food most children were given on a regular basis. Many more children would have starved if it had not been for the school meals. I remember that my father, who started as a teacher in a little village in the 1950s, told us that he used to have a shower with the (male!!) children once a week because in the rural area most kids simply did not wash and the families had no bathrooms. It was my mother's job to take the girls to the shower :-) In my own childhood all children were still routinely checked by a dentist once a year and we still had school milk offered to poorer kids. I think it's not a bad thing when society ensures that children get what they need because it's not their fault when the parents are poor, uncaring or unfit parents. The children need to be looked after, it's a basic right. If they need to be made "school fit" and the parents do not do it, the school must come up with a solution. Luckily, most parents do educate their children.
In the same way the schools must offer language help for children from immigration families which has been neglected for a long time because Germany expected people to come here to work and then leave. Only when we had over a million third generation children with poor language skills, the states started to recognize the problem.
Ah, that is rather similar, the differences being that here schools are municipal businesses, that are merely governed by the state and (to a much lesser extent) the federal governments.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]YourValentine wrote: [/QUOTENAME]@ MusicMan - it's similar here: schools are state business, the states write the curriculae, employ the teachers and decide all legal issues. The cities provide the buildings, maintain them, and are responsible for the safety of the school etc. Cities can decide which kind of schools they provide in addition to elementary school (year 1-4)and "main school" (year 5-9, no higher education) which are mandatory.
@ Maggie and Lady Nyx - we have a tradition of school responsibility for the well being of children. After the war all schools provided for a daily meal which was the only food most children were given on a regular basis. Many more children would have starved if it had not been for the school meals. I remember that my father, who started as a teacher in a little village in the 1950s, told us that he used to have a shower with the (male!!) children once a week because in the rural area most kids simply did not wash and the families had no bathrooms. It was my mother's job to take the girls to the shower :-) In my own childhood all children were still routinely checked by a dentist once a year and we still had school milk offered to poorer kids. I think it's not a bad thing when society ensures that children get what they need because it's not their fault when the parents are poor, uncaring or unfit parents. The children need to be looked after, it's a basic right. If they need to be made "school fit" and the parents do not do it, the school must come up with a solution. Luckily, most parents do educate their children.
In the same way the schools must offer language help for children from immigration families which has been neglected for a long time because Germany expected people to come here to work and then leave. Only when we had over a million third generation children with poor language skills, the states started to recognize the problem.
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as for your end, barb, that would be awesome if the ideals ended there. its hte fact that we expect the schools to RAISE our children, but if they actually do something to give them boundaries and discipline, its being "mean" to poor junior who was stepping out of line and hurting someone else.
if schools here would do the same to help those in need, it would be great but the parents here are just so confused and/or lazy to allow that. the second their skills are questioned, is when they get their panties in a bunch.
i feel like ill beat a dead horse if i continue. its great with what happens in your area, and if only more places were like that. but the american mindset is just so far removed from that. its the fact that parents EXPECT schools to do their dirty work and get offended when their ideals are differnet then theirs, rather than having the option given to those who need the chance.
@ Maggie and Lady Nyx - we have a tradition of school responsibility for the well being of children. After the war all schools provided for a daily meal which was the only food most children were given on a regular basis. Many more children would have starved if it had not been for the school meals. I remember that my father, who started as a teacher in a little village in the 1950s, told us that he used to have a shower with the (male!!) children once a week because in the rural area most kids simply did not wash and the families had no bathrooms. It was my mother's job to take the girls to the shower :-) In my own childhood all children were still routinely checked by a dentist once a year and we still had school milk offered to poorer kids. I think it's not a bad thing when society ensures that children get what they need because it's not their fault when the parents are poor, uncaring or unfit parents. The children need to be looked after, it's a basic right. If they need to be made "school fit" and the parents do not do it, the school must come up with a solution. Luckily, most parents do educate their children.
In the same way the schools must offer language help for children from immigration families which has been neglected for a long time because Germany expected people to come here to work and then leave. Only when we had over a million third generation children with poor language skills, the states started to recognize the problem.
[/QUOTE]
as for your end, barb, that would be awesome if the ideals ended there. its hte fact that we expect the schools to RAISE our children, but if they actually do something to give them boundaries and discipline, its being "mean" to poor junior who was stepping out of line and hurting someone else.
if schools here would do the same to help those in need, it would be great but the parents here are just so confused and/or lazy to allow that. the second their skills are questioned, is when they get their panties in a bunch.
i feel like ill beat a dead horse if i continue. its great with what happens in your area, and if only more places were like that. but the american mindset is just so far removed from that. its the fact that parents EXPECT schools to do their dirty work and get offended when their ideals are differnet then theirs, rather than having the option given to those who need the chance.
Unfortunately, schools are chronically underfunded and cannot fulfill all their duties as they should. Too many social tasks are heaped on the schools without giving them the means to solve the increasing problems. Recently a school in Berlin declared defeat publicly and asked for help via the media. It was a desperate move and brought back the problems into public focus. They did get help but it was only one school from thousands.
The thread title is bull twang.
You can't 'make' a kid do anything. In 7th grade, I had this teacher who (apparently, by law) had the power to make me get up and do linedancing. LINEDANCING.
They wanted me to LINE DANCE to "Walk of Life". Is there anything more fucking soulless?
I sat my arse down and I didn't dance. He eventually pulled me off of my perch physically (that's apparently illegal, I've heard since) and tried to make me dance, but it didn't work and he got bored, and I sat down.
It was the same in high school when people started threatening/assaulting me with stanley trimmers. They all thought if they pushed me around and started hacking bits off of my hair that I'd stop being me, or that they'd control me in some way.
Well, nope - I wasn't playing.
I think something that kids really need to be told is that if a thing is 100% bullshit... like "GO DOWN INTO THAT FOXHOLE, SOLDIER", or "PLEASE DON'T TELL MY WIFE YOU CAUGHT ME FUCKING MY SECRETARY", then you should bloody well ignore it.
It's like in that Gandhi film where he goes "They may kill my body, break my bones; and then what will they have? They will have my dead body. Not my obedience!".
Dunno, maybe I'm just obstinate.
You can't 'make' a kid do anything. In 7th grade, I had this teacher who (apparently, by law) had the power to make me get up and do linedancing. LINEDANCING.
They wanted me to LINE DANCE to "Walk of Life". Is there anything more fucking soulless?
I sat my arse down and I didn't dance. He eventually pulled me off of my perch physically (that's apparently illegal, I've heard since) and tried to make me dance, but it didn't work and he got bored, and I sat down.
It was the same in high school when people started threatening/assaulting me with stanley trimmers. They all thought if they pushed me around and started hacking bits off of my hair that I'd stop being me, or that they'd control me in some way.
Well, nope - I wasn't playing.
I think something that kids really need to be told is that if a thing is 100% bullshit... like "GO DOWN INTO THAT FOXHOLE, SOLDIER", or "PLEASE DON'T TELL MY WIFE YOU CAUGHT ME FUCKING MY SECRETARY", then you should bloody well ignore it.
It's like in that Gandhi film where he goes "They may kill my body, break my bones; and then what will they have? They will have my dead body. Not my obedience!".
Dunno, maybe I'm just obstinate.