First of all, escuse me for my poor use of English.
I always have the image in my mind that the composer came with a song, for example Freddie, and play it to the others guy in the piano (with the melody and the lyrics), asked to the others what they think about it and the others create the part for their instruments. Of course there are cases that this doesn't happen and the composer also creates the part for another instrument which is not his speciality (John in Misfire or Back Chat -guitar-, Brian in Save me -piano- or Sail away sweet sister, Freddie in CLTCL -rhythm guitar- and so on).
I don't imagine the creation of rock music like the classical music like Mozart, who composed for many instruments and write the partitures (or tabs, I don't know how to name it in English). I think of this about the prime idea belongs to the composer, I mean the main melody and the lyrics (which could be changed a little in the process).
By the way, Under pressure bass line or the famous bass riff, isn't John's?
Thread
Posts in chronological order
Mercury could also play the bass line on the piano, or sing the guitar bits, or conduct Taylor on the drums (like One Vision making of, although that's not his song). Deacon, even not being a singer, could 'sing' the melody to Mercury, or play it on bass, guitar or piano. During synth era anybody could programme the parts and they could be replaced later by the respective player.
So, just because Brian plays a guitar choir, for instance, it doesn't mean he wrote it, same for Mercury and multi-tracked backing vocals, or Taylor with drums, or Deacon with bass. Indeed, for 'Back to the Light' May programmed drums on synthesisers, and then Cozy Powell replaced (many of) them using an actual acoustic set, but the part had been composed by Brian (who's not a drummer).
And so on... keep in mind, also, that:
- Very often the same riff, motif or line is done on different instruments (e.g. [i]Two Legs[/i] tritone leap, [i]Teo Torriatte [/i]bass during the second verse is similar to what guitars do on the third, [i]Tie Your Mother Down [/i]bass doubles rhythm guitar, [i]Bo Rhap[/i] verse has bass doubling left-hand piano).
- Creating parts for vocals isn't too different to creating parts for other instruments. So, if Deacon could write for vocals, I don't know why it's so hard to understand that May could write for drums or Mercury for guitar, etc.
PS: Deacon credited the bass-line to Bowie, at least twice.
So, just because Brian plays a guitar choir, for instance, it doesn't mean he wrote it, same for Mercury and multi-tracked backing vocals, or Taylor with drums, or Deacon with bass. Indeed, for 'Back to the Light' May programmed drums on synthesisers, and then Cozy Powell replaced (many of) them using an actual acoustic set, but the part had been composed by Brian (who's not a drummer).
And so on... keep in mind, also, that:
- Very often the same riff, motif or line is done on different instruments (e.g. [i]Two Legs[/i] tritone leap, [i]Teo Torriatte [/i]bass during the second verse is similar to what guitars do on the third, [i]Tie Your Mother Down [/i]bass doubles rhythm guitar, [i]Bo Rhap[/i] verse has bass doubling left-hand piano).
- Creating parts for vocals isn't too different to creating parts for other instruments. So, if Deacon could write for vocals, I don't know why it's so hard to understand that May could write for drums or Mercury for guitar, etc.
PS: Deacon credited the bass-line to Bowie, at least twice.
[b] Deacon could play beautifully, bass-lines he hadn't composed (e.g. [i]Under Pressure[/i])
[/b]Deacon does have writted the bass-lines on under pressure, it says so on the comments of GVH2... he´s a genious!
[/b]Deacon does have writted the bass-lines on under pressure, it says so on the comments of GVH2... he´s a genious!
Let's compare:
GVHII: Taylor & May, twenty years after the song's recorded, credit the bass-riff to John.
Music Life magazine: John Deacon, the man who recorded the bass line, credits it to Bowie (one year after the song was laid down)
Which evidence is more trustworthy?
GVHII: Taylor & May, twenty years after the song's recorded, credit the bass-riff to John.
Music Life magazine: John Deacon, the man who recorded the bass line, credits it to Bowie (one year after the song was laid down)
Which evidence is more trustworthy?
[QUOTE]
[b]Sebastian wrote: [/b]
It's not unfounded. Just because a person's not a bassist doesn't mean they can't write for bass. Same with other instruments.
Or do you think Mozart could sing all the bass, tenor, alto and soprano arias of his operas?
Do you think John Deacon could sing Best Friend that well?
Do you think Lloyd Webber could hit the high notes of Phantom of the Opera?
[/QUOTE]
Sebastian and Zebonka both make good points. Speaking of Classical Composers, I'd pay good money to see Handel try and sing half the music he's written. That sonofabitch didn't like singers, I'M TELLING YOU. His gigantic work 'Messiah?' You want to talk about something that's difficulty isn't described well by "hard" or "challenging." Especially for being choir arrangements. The choir conductor at my college had to bribe people to do a solo on a Handel piece. No-one wanted it.
[b]Sebastian wrote: [/b]
It's not unfounded. Just because a person's not a bassist doesn't mean they can't write for bass. Same with other instruments.
Or do you think Mozart could sing all the bass, tenor, alto and soprano arias of his operas?
Do you think John Deacon could sing Best Friend that well?
Do you think Lloyd Webber could hit the high notes of Phantom of the Opera?
[/QUOTE]
Sebastian and Zebonka both make good points. Speaking of Classical Composers, I'd pay good money to see Handel try and sing half the music he's written. That sonofabitch didn't like singers, I'M TELLING YOU. His gigantic work 'Messiah?' You want to talk about something that's difficulty isn't described well by "hard" or "challenging." Especially for being choir arrangements. The choir conductor at my college had to bribe people to do a solo on a Handel piece. No-one wanted it.
To answer the original question though...I think John Deacon is a brilliant musician, and a very lyrical, yet soulful bassist. Better than Macca, John Paul Jones, and a few others. He had an innate way of blending with everything seamlessly, but still playing stuff that is utter genius. As much as I love John's bass playing, and his musicianship, I think Thunderfingers is the greatest Rock bassist...Thunderfingers was to rock as James Jamerson was to Pop & Motown.
A guy like Rod Stewart can strum an acoustic guitar, and that's about all for his musicality, yet he wrote a lot of songs. Phil Collins couldn't play horns, yet when he had the horn section for his second solo album on the song "I cannot believe it's true", he indicated that he wanted the horns played as "bah-bah-bahbahbah-bah-bahbah." So Sebastian has a fair point about the difference between writing and playing. However, and this is a big however, there is no way on God's earth that anybody in any band would ever play only what they were told by other band members. They are usually in a band to make a mark as a musician, not to be a studio guy playing what they are told.
[/QUOTE]First off, if it was Bowie who created the famous intro bass line for UP, do you really think that he said, "now John, after that, I want you to play a descending line lower on the fretboard that's a variation of the main riff, and when you get to the "it's the terror" part then you should play an eighth note G alternating between the root on the E string and the 5th fret on the D string." No chance. So he created the melody, sure, but the rest of that song is John Deacon. Listen to Bowie, who I admire musically, and he's a dabbler on every instrument he plays. He's not winning any guitar or sax polls, so I highly doubt that he could walk John Deacon through Under Pressure on the bass. [/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]First off, if it was Bowie who created the famous intro bass line for UP, do you really think that he said, "now John, after that, I want you to play a descending line lower on the fretboard that's a variation of the main riff, and when you get to the "it's the terror" part then you should play an eighth note G alternating between the root on the E string and the 5th fret on the D string." No chance. So he created the melody, sure, but the rest of that song is John Deacon. Listen to Bowie, who I admire musically, and he's a dabbler on every instrument he plays. He's not winning any guitar or sax polls, so I highly doubt that he could walk John Deacon through Under Pressure on the bass. [/QUOTE]
[b]Sebastian wrote:
More often than not, the creator of the song composed all parts for all instruments.
[/b]This isn't plausible for reasons stated above. Plus it contradicts two main statements bandmembers have made about the creative process, namely:
1. That individual members would bring a song to recording sessions and the input of other members would often change it entirely.
2. Brian May's often-quoted line that he creates guitar solos as self-contained compositions.[b]
[/b]
More often than not, the creator of the song composed all parts for all instruments.
[/b]This isn't plausible for reasons stated above. Plus it contradicts two main statements bandmembers have made about the creative process, namely:
1. That individual members would bring a song to recording sessions and the input of other members would often change it entirely.
2. Brian May's often-quoted line that he creates guitar solos as self-contained compositions.[b]
[/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Sebastian wrote: [/b]
Let's compare:
GVHII: Taylor & May, twenty years after the song's recorded, credit the bass-riff to John.
Music Life magazine: John Deacon, the man who recorded the bass line, credits it to Bowie (one year after the song was laid down)
Which evidence is more trustworthy?
[/QUOTE] Let's look at another situation:
"The co-composition credit on FRIENDS WILL BE FRIENDS and on PAIN IS SO CLOSE TO PLEASURE was merely because John Deacon insisted that Freddie's contribution be recognised and acknowledged. John's honesty and integrity would not have allowed him to do otherwise." (Peter Freestone)
In other words: John contributed more than Freddie one these two songs, but he insisted that Freddie's name should be mentioned in the credits as well. At least this is what I can make out of it.
The same could go for the bass line of Under Pressure. Maybe John started it off and Bowie added some ideas here and there. John's kindness and/or shyness might be the crucial ingredient in this matter, by saying Bowie wrote the whole thing.
Just a simple theory.
[b]Sebastian wrote: [/b]
Let's compare:
GVHII: Taylor & May, twenty years after the song's recorded, credit the bass-riff to John.
Music Life magazine: John Deacon, the man who recorded the bass line, credits it to Bowie (one year after the song was laid down)
Which evidence is more trustworthy?
[/QUOTE] Let's look at another situation:
"The co-composition credit on FRIENDS WILL BE FRIENDS and on PAIN IS SO CLOSE TO PLEASURE was merely because John Deacon insisted that Freddie's contribution be recognised and acknowledged. John's honesty and integrity would not have allowed him to do otherwise." (Peter Freestone)
In other words: John contributed more than Freddie one these two songs, but he insisted that Freddie's name should be mentioned in the credits as well. At least this is what I can make out of it.
The same could go for the bass line of Under Pressure. Maybe John started it off and Bowie added some ideas here and there. John's kindness and/or shyness might be the crucial ingredient in this matter, by saying Bowie wrote the whole thing.
Just a simple theory.
> However, and this is a big however, there is no way on God's earth that anybody in any band would ever play only what they were told by other band members.
Of course every time you play or sing something you're already adding your own phrasing, etc. For instance, every piano sonata changes a bit when played by different performers. But it doesn't mean that there's a Moonlight Sonata by Beethoven & Lang, another by Beethoven & Barenboim, etc.
From the very moment Mercury took over a vocal line written by somebody else, he'd adapt his phrasing, his technique, etc, to it, but it doesn't mean he co-wrote the melody. Same for other instruments.
Now, I'm not saying that all of the solos were composed by the creator of the song, or all bass lines, but the point remains:
[b]More often than not, the creator of the song wrote all parts for all instruments and vocals.[/b]
> They are usually in a band to make a mark as a musician, not to be a studio guy playing what they are told.
But that's not quite the case in Queen. Each had his own way in his own songs, but on the others', they were just to make the best of it. Sometimes as co-arrangers, yes, but most of the time, as players or singers. Of course it depends on the actual song...
> First off, if it was Bowie who created the famous intro bass line for UP, do you really think that he said, "now John, after that, I want you to play a descending line lower on the fretboard that's a variation of the main riff, and when you get to the "it's the terror" part then you should play an eighth note G alternating between the root on the E string and the 5th fret on the D string."
To write a bass-line doesn't mean to tell the exact 'coordinates'. He could write the melody and then Deacy would decide if he played a G note on the 4th string or the 3rd or the 5th, etc. Same for vocals: Deacy didn't need to indicate Freddie which muscles of his throat had to work to produce the 'oh you make me live' line, but that doesn't mean he didn't write it.
> Listen to Bowie, who I admire musically, and he's a dabbler on every instrument he plays. He's not winning any guitar or sax polls, so I highly doubt that he could walk John Deacon through Under Pressure on the bass.
Again, you don't need to be an expert on the instrument in order to write good lines for it. And viceversa: thousands of people can play Bach's Lute Suite in E minor, but how many can write one of those?
> 1. That individual members would bring a song to recording sessions and the input of other members would often change it entirely.
Can you post an exact quote? Many of those statements tend to be misunderstood or changed when reported. There are also several statements that the creator of the song would bring all of it mapped out, and he'd be the one who decided how it would go. Now, that includes either 'you play this and you play that' or 'you write a line and play it and you write another one and play it', etc.
It also depends on the era.
> Brian May's often-quoted line that he creates guitar solos as self-contained compositions.
He's also often quoted as saying the creator of the song had the solos mapped out, and that he [b]sometimes[/b] was asked to write a solo.
> "The co-composition credit on FRIENDS WILL BE FRIENDS and on PAIN IS SO CLOSE TO PLEASURE was merely because John Deacon insisted that Freddie's contribution be recognised and acknowledged. John's honesty and integrity would not have allowed him to do otherwise." (Peter Freestone)
Again, that's a statement made many years after the fact, by a person who could've been there or not. About [i]Friends Will Be Friends[/i], May's comments suggest Mercury's dominance. Now, the point is that neither composed it 100%.
> In other words: John contributed more than Freddie one these two songs, but he insisted that Freddie's name should be mentioned in the credits as well. At least this is what I can make out of it.
Yes, but he didn't say 'Freddie wrote it'.
> The same could go for the bass line of Under Pressure. Maybe John started it off and Bowie added some ideas here and there. John's kindness and/or shyness might be the crucial ingredient in this matter, by saying Bowie wrote the whole thing.
In fact, Deacon said that it'd taken him some time to learn it, which isn't quite surprising keeping in mind how perfectionist David is (or was, at least).
> Just a simple theory.
There's another theory: even though John's admitted that he didn't write the bass line (although he played it marvellously), there are some fans who simply can't accept that fact. They can believe Deacon was lying, they can believe Bowie couldn't do it... but don't consider the option that he was 'merely' a performer (and a bloody good one) there, not a co-writer.
Of course every time you play or sing something you're already adding your own phrasing, etc. For instance, every piano sonata changes a bit when played by different performers. But it doesn't mean that there's a Moonlight Sonata by Beethoven & Lang, another by Beethoven & Barenboim, etc.
From the very moment Mercury took over a vocal line written by somebody else, he'd adapt his phrasing, his technique, etc, to it, but it doesn't mean he co-wrote the melody. Same for other instruments.
Now, I'm not saying that all of the solos were composed by the creator of the song, or all bass lines, but the point remains:
[b]More often than not, the creator of the song wrote all parts for all instruments and vocals.[/b]
> They are usually in a band to make a mark as a musician, not to be a studio guy playing what they are told.
But that's not quite the case in Queen. Each had his own way in his own songs, but on the others', they were just to make the best of it. Sometimes as co-arrangers, yes, but most of the time, as players or singers. Of course it depends on the actual song...
> First off, if it was Bowie who created the famous intro bass line for UP, do you really think that he said, "now John, after that, I want you to play a descending line lower on the fretboard that's a variation of the main riff, and when you get to the "it's the terror" part then you should play an eighth note G alternating between the root on the E string and the 5th fret on the D string."
To write a bass-line doesn't mean to tell the exact 'coordinates'. He could write the melody and then Deacy would decide if he played a G note on the 4th string or the 3rd or the 5th, etc. Same for vocals: Deacy didn't need to indicate Freddie which muscles of his throat had to work to produce the 'oh you make me live' line, but that doesn't mean he didn't write it.
> Listen to Bowie, who I admire musically, and he's a dabbler on every instrument he plays. He's not winning any guitar or sax polls, so I highly doubt that he could walk John Deacon through Under Pressure on the bass.
Again, you don't need to be an expert on the instrument in order to write good lines for it. And viceversa: thousands of people can play Bach's Lute Suite in E minor, but how many can write one of those?
> 1. That individual members would bring a song to recording sessions and the input of other members would often change it entirely.
Can you post an exact quote? Many of those statements tend to be misunderstood or changed when reported. There are also several statements that the creator of the song would bring all of it mapped out, and he'd be the one who decided how it would go. Now, that includes either 'you play this and you play that' or 'you write a line and play it and you write another one and play it', etc.
It also depends on the era.
> Brian May's often-quoted line that he creates guitar solos as self-contained compositions.
He's also often quoted as saying the creator of the song had the solos mapped out, and that he [b]sometimes[/b] was asked to write a solo.
> "The co-composition credit on FRIENDS WILL BE FRIENDS and on PAIN IS SO CLOSE TO PLEASURE was merely because John Deacon insisted that Freddie's contribution be recognised and acknowledged. John's honesty and integrity would not have allowed him to do otherwise." (Peter Freestone)
Again, that's a statement made many years after the fact, by a person who could've been there or not. About [i]Friends Will Be Friends[/i], May's comments suggest Mercury's dominance. Now, the point is that neither composed it 100%.
> In other words: John contributed more than Freddie one these two songs, but he insisted that Freddie's name should be mentioned in the credits as well. At least this is what I can make out of it.
Yes, but he didn't say 'Freddie wrote it'.
> The same could go for the bass line of Under Pressure. Maybe John started it off and Bowie added some ideas here and there. John's kindness and/or shyness might be the crucial ingredient in this matter, by saying Bowie wrote the whole thing.
In fact, Deacon said that it'd taken him some time to learn it, which isn't quite surprising keeping in mind how perfectionist David is (or was, at least).
> Just a simple theory.
There's another theory: even though John's admitted that he didn't write the bass line (although he played it marvellously), there are some fans who simply can't accept that fact. They can believe Deacon was lying, they can believe Bowie couldn't do it... but don't consider the option that he was 'merely' a performer (and a bloody good one) there, not a co-writer.
[b]That individual members would bring a song to recording sessions and the input of other members would often change it entirely.
[/b]
Can you post an exact quote? Many of those statements tend to be misunderstood or changed when reported. There are also several statements that the creator of the song would bring all of it mapped out, and he'd be the one who decided how it would go. Now, that includes either 'you play this and you play that' or 'you write a line and play it and you write another one and play it', etc.
[b]Sorry no. I'm long past the days when I collect quotes, clippings etc. However, if I've read this then I'm sure more ardent fans will be able to provide the source.[/b]
[b]... Brian May's often-quoted line that he creates guitar solos as self-contained compositions.[/b]
He's also often quoted as saying the creator of the song had the solos mapped out, and that he sometimes was asked to write a solo.
[b]Can you provide a source ;) Seriously, I don't see that as a seriously probability. Neither Roger or Fred had enough talent on guitar to tell brian how to compose a solo. Of course it's entirely possible that Fred played something on piano as a guide. But that hardly supports your original claim that "more often that not...etc). [/b]
[/b]
Can you post an exact quote? Many of those statements tend to be misunderstood or changed when reported. There are also several statements that the creator of the song would bring all of it mapped out, and he'd be the one who decided how it would go. Now, that includes either 'you play this and you play that' or 'you write a line and play it and you write another one and play it', etc.
[b]Sorry no. I'm long past the days when I collect quotes, clippings etc. However, if I've read this then I'm sure more ardent fans will be able to provide the source.[/b]
[b]... Brian May's often-quoted line that he creates guitar solos as self-contained compositions.[/b]
He's also often quoted as saying the creator of the song had the solos mapped out, and that he sometimes was asked to write a solo.
[b]Can you provide a source ;) Seriously, I don't see that as a seriously probability. Neither Roger or Fred had enough talent on guitar to tell brian how to compose a solo. Of course it's entirely possible that Fred played something on piano as a guide. But that hardly supports your original claim that "more often that not...etc). [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Holly2003 wrote: [/b]
[b]Neither Roger or Fred had enough talent on guitar to tell brian how to compose a solo.[/b]
[/QUOTE]
Once again: you don't need to be a virtuoso guitarist in order to write guitar pieces. You don't need to be a singer to compose vocal melodies. You don't need to be a consummate flutist to compose a concerto for flute and orchestra. You don't need to be an outstanding comic actor in order to write a marvellous comedy. You don't need to be a professional actor in order to be a director. You don't need to be a model in order to design clothing. You don't need to be an extraordinary (former) footballer in order to be a good manager.
Mercury, not being a guitarist himself, could write for guitar, and did so, many times.
Taylor, not being as good on guitar as May, could write for guitar, even if May recorded the parts.
Deacon, not being as good on guitar as May, could write for guitar, even if May recorded the parts.
It's the same as Roger or Brian writing a vocal melody that Freddie could sing better, but they were still the writers. Same for May composing the drum part of [i]Sweet Lady [/i](something he wouldn't be able to play), or Deacon writing vocal melodies that he wouldn't be able to sing well, etc.
[b]Holly2003 wrote: [/b]
[b]Neither Roger or Fred had enough talent on guitar to tell brian how to compose a solo.[/b]
[/QUOTE]
Once again: you don't need to be a virtuoso guitarist in order to write guitar pieces. You don't need to be a singer to compose vocal melodies. You don't need to be a consummate flutist to compose a concerto for flute and orchestra. You don't need to be an outstanding comic actor in order to write a marvellous comedy. You don't need to be a professional actor in order to be a director. You don't need to be a model in order to design clothing. You don't need to be an extraordinary (former) footballer in order to be a good manager.
Mercury, not being a guitarist himself, could write for guitar, and did so, many times.
Taylor, not being as good on guitar as May, could write for guitar, even if May recorded the parts.
Deacon, not being as good on guitar as May, could write for guitar, even if May recorded the parts.
It's the same as Roger or Brian writing a vocal melody that Freddie could sing better, but they were still the writers. Same for May composing the drum part of [i]Sweet Lady [/i](something he wouldn't be able to play), or Deacon writing vocal melodies that he wouldn't be able to sing well, etc.
[b]Sebastian wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Holly2003 wrote: [/b]
[b]Neither Roger or Fred had enough talent on guitar to tell brian how to compose a solo.[/b]
[/QUOTE]
Once again: you don't need to be a virtuoso guitarist in order to write guitar pieces. You don't need to be a singer to compose vocal melodies. You don't need to be a consummate flutist to compose a concerto for flute and orchestra. You don't need to be an outstanding comic actor in order to write a marvellous comedy. You don't need to be a professional actor in order to be a director. You don't need to be a model in order to design clothing. You don't need to be an extraordinary (former) footballer in order to be a good manager.
Mercury, not being a guitarist himself, could write for guitar, and did so, many times.
Taylor, not being as good on guitar as May, could write for guitar, even if May recorded the parts.
Deacon, not being as good on guitar as May, could write for guitar, even if May recorded the parts.
It's the same as Roger or Brian writing a vocal melody that Freddie could sing better, but they were still the writers. Same for May composing the drum part of [i]Sweet Lady [/i](something he wouldn't be able to play), or Deacon writing vocal melodies that he wouldn't be able to sing well, etc.
[/QUOTE]
[b]You do, however, need a certain level of expertise. Was Roger, for example, good enough on guitar to show Brian what to do on guitar? He could hardly show him how to do it on drums! And he wasn't a pianist as such. As I've said, it's certainly [i]possible[/i] that Fred wrote guitar pieces on piano, but becasue he could do it doesn't mean he did do it "more often than not". Take for example, Don't Stop Me Now. Do you really believe Fred wrote the guitar solo for that? Or is it far more likely he said to Brian "insert a hot, fast solo here Brian". To use an anlogy, when writing a script I assume it would be a lot more common for a writer to say "Insert sad orchestral music here" rather than "insert orchestral score here, which must be along the following lines A, B-, D" etc)
[/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Holly2003 wrote: [/b]
[b]Neither Roger or Fred had enough talent on guitar to tell brian how to compose a solo.[/b]
[/QUOTE]
Once again: you don't need to be a virtuoso guitarist in order to write guitar pieces. You don't need to be a singer to compose vocal melodies. You don't need to be a consummate flutist to compose a concerto for flute and orchestra. You don't need to be an outstanding comic actor in order to write a marvellous comedy. You don't need to be a professional actor in order to be a director. You don't need to be a model in order to design clothing. You don't need to be an extraordinary (former) footballer in order to be a good manager.
Mercury, not being a guitarist himself, could write for guitar, and did so, many times.
Taylor, not being as good on guitar as May, could write for guitar, even if May recorded the parts.
Deacon, not being as good on guitar as May, could write for guitar, even if May recorded the parts.
It's the same as Roger or Brian writing a vocal melody that Freddie could sing better, but they were still the writers. Same for May composing the drum part of [i]Sweet Lady [/i](something he wouldn't be able to play), or Deacon writing vocal melodies that he wouldn't be able to sing well, etc.
[/QUOTE]
[b]You do, however, need a certain level of expertise. Was Roger, for example, good enough on guitar to show Brian what to do on guitar? He could hardly show him how to do it on drums! And he wasn't a pianist as such. As I've said, it's certainly [i]possible[/i] that Fred wrote guitar pieces on piano, but becasue he could do it doesn't mean he did do it "more often than not". Take for example, Don't Stop Me Now. Do you really believe Fred wrote the guitar solo for that? Or is it far more likely he said to Brian "insert a hot, fast solo here Brian". To use an anlogy, when writing a script I assume it would be a lot more common for a writer to say "Insert sad orchestral music here" rather than "insert orchestral score here, which must be along the following lines A, B-, D" etc)
[/b]
> You do, however, need a certain level of expertise.
Wrong: John Deacon wasn't an expert on vocals, but he composed many vocal melodies, some of which are very beautiful and well-constructed. Joaquin Rodrigo didn't play guitar (and was blind btw), yet he composed Concierto de Aranjuez. He didn't play cello (though he did play violin), harp or flute either, but composed concertos for all of them. He didn't sing either, yet he wrote choral pieces.
> Was Roger, for example, good enough on guitar to show Brian what to do on guitar?
As a matter of fact, Roger was/is quite good on guitar. Moreover, was Deacon good enough to sing Best Friend? No. Was he good enough to compose it? Yes. Is Bowie good enough to play UP bassline? Probably not. Is Bowie good enough to compose it? Yes.
> He could hardly show him how to do it on drums! And he wasn't a pianist as such.
Yet he could write parts for piano. Deacon wasn't a singer as such, yet he wrote for vocals.
> As I've said, it's certainly possible that Fred wrote guitar pieces on piano, but becasue he could do it doesn't mean he did do it
He could write them on vocals too, like Bijou.
> Take for example, Don't Stop Me Now. Do you really believe Fred wrote the guitar solo for that?
Indeed. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't (to be fair, there are certain similarities between that solo and Bo Rhap's). But often the solo has a melody not dissimilar to the sort of melody one writes for vocals, piano or wind instruments. Same for Bicycle Race (scales), etc. The fact he couldn't play it doesn't mean he didn't write it. Same for Deacon and vocals, once again.
As a matter of fact, May wrote parts of clarinet (which he played on guitar), Mercury wrote parts for woodwind and brass (which he and Roger did onomatopoeically), Kerry Livgren wrote for violin, cello and viola (not being a bow player himself), and then again, John Deacon wrote for vocals, not being a singer.
> Or is it far more likely he said to Brian "insert a hot, fast solo here Brian".
That solo isn't *that* fast. Again, writing for guitar isn't that different to writing for other melodic instruments. Loads of guitar pieces were/are written by people who weren't/aren't proficient on guitar, just like loads of scripts for comedy are written by people who aren't necessarily good telling jokes, just like loads of vocal melodies and pieces are written by people who don't sing very well, etc. Some pieces can be hard to play but not necessarily hard to compose, and viceversa. A scalar fragment (e.g. I'm in Love With My Car, bits of Breakthru) can easily be written by a person who can't play it. Could Mozart sing all the bass, tenor, alto and soprano arias he wrote for his operas?
> To use an anlogy, when writing a script I assume it would be a lot more common for a writer to say "Insert sad orchestral music here" rather than "insert orchestral score here, which must be along the following lines A, B-, D" etc)
Yes, but that's a different case. The actual analogy would be: when writing a script for a film, you write the lines and describe the scenes, and then the actors say them and perform them.
Again: Brian May could write for drums, even not being a drummer himself, and did so, many times. Likewise, Mercury could write for guitars, Taylor for piano, Deacon for vocals, etc.
Wrong: John Deacon wasn't an expert on vocals, but he composed many vocal melodies, some of which are very beautiful and well-constructed. Joaquin Rodrigo didn't play guitar (and was blind btw), yet he composed Concierto de Aranjuez. He didn't play cello (though he did play violin), harp or flute either, but composed concertos for all of them. He didn't sing either, yet he wrote choral pieces.
> Was Roger, for example, good enough on guitar to show Brian what to do on guitar?
As a matter of fact, Roger was/is quite good on guitar. Moreover, was Deacon good enough to sing Best Friend? No. Was he good enough to compose it? Yes. Is Bowie good enough to play UP bassline? Probably not. Is Bowie good enough to compose it? Yes.
> He could hardly show him how to do it on drums! And he wasn't a pianist as such.
Yet he could write parts for piano. Deacon wasn't a singer as such, yet he wrote for vocals.
> As I've said, it's certainly possible that Fred wrote guitar pieces on piano, but becasue he could do it doesn't mean he did do it
He could write them on vocals too, like Bijou.
> Take for example, Don't Stop Me Now. Do you really believe Fred wrote the guitar solo for that?
Indeed. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't (to be fair, there are certain similarities between that solo and Bo Rhap's). But often the solo has a melody not dissimilar to the sort of melody one writes for vocals, piano or wind instruments. Same for Bicycle Race (scales), etc. The fact he couldn't play it doesn't mean he didn't write it. Same for Deacon and vocals, once again.
As a matter of fact, May wrote parts of clarinet (which he played on guitar), Mercury wrote parts for woodwind and brass (which he and Roger did onomatopoeically), Kerry Livgren wrote for violin, cello and viola (not being a bow player himself), and then again, John Deacon wrote for vocals, not being a singer.
> Or is it far more likely he said to Brian "insert a hot, fast solo here Brian".
That solo isn't *that* fast. Again, writing for guitar isn't that different to writing for other melodic instruments. Loads of guitar pieces were/are written by people who weren't/aren't proficient on guitar, just like loads of scripts for comedy are written by people who aren't necessarily good telling jokes, just like loads of vocal melodies and pieces are written by people who don't sing very well, etc. Some pieces can be hard to play but not necessarily hard to compose, and viceversa. A scalar fragment (e.g. I'm in Love With My Car, bits of Breakthru) can easily be written by a person who can't play it. Could Mozart sing all the bass, tenor, alto and soprano arias he wrote for his operas?
> To use an anlogy, when writing a script I assume it would be a lot more common for a writer to say "Insert sad orchestral music here" rather than "insert orchestral score here, which must be along the following lines A, B-, D" etc)
Yes, but that's a different case. The actual analogy would be: when writing a script for a film, you write the lines and describe the scenes, and then the actors say them and perform them.
Again: Brian May could write for drums, even not being a drummer himself, and did so, many times. Likewise, Mercury could write for guitars, Taylor for piano, Deacon for vocals, etc.
Seb, I don;t think your analogies quite stand up to scrutiny. I could sing a song I had composed but it wouldn;'t be very good. I could ask a real singer to sing it and it would be an improvement. But I couldn't compose intricate guitar solos for a professional guitarist to play. Vocals and instruments are different in that respect -- a certain amount of expertise is required. Roger is not a good guitarist. Where in the world did you get that idea from?
Here's an interview from Guitar Player magazine which shows the collaborative process. It demonstrates that although sometimes the whole song might be mapped out in advance by one member, the others would often change things around:
[url=http://www.guitarplayer.com/article/queens-brian-may/jan-08/32483]http://www.guitarplayer.com/article/queens-brian-may/jan-08/32483[/url]
[b]All four of you wrote songs. How complete would the songs be when a writer would bring them in?[/b]
[i]With all of us we would have the idea pretty much developed.[/i] John didn’t sing, so generally he would have to talk Freddie through it, but[i] he would have very clear ideas on what he wanted[/i]. For instance, when John brought in “You’re My Best Friend,” it was pretty well mapped out—he even played the keyboard on that tune.
[b]Would he give you direction on your guitar parts?
[/b][i]Oh yeah [laughs]. He would try. We would all try, but generally there would be a process of discussion. It was a good, healthy situation where we’d work together to find the best parts.
[/i]
[b]When Freddie brought in “We Are the Champions,” how long was it before you guys had the arrangement that we hear on the record?
[/b]Well, arrangement is two things:[i] It’s what happens next, [/i]and it’s what’s happening in parallel—what the texture is at any one point. As far as what happens next, I think Freddie had that very early on. With his piano part, the song is mapped. Normally he would put down the piano part with Roger and John live and when it was good enough, after three or four takes, that would be what we used. And that’s pretty much what happened with “Champions.” [i]At this point I’m playing around and working out what I’m going to do.[/i] [i]I get the chance plan it in my head while I’m listening to them do the backing tracks.[/i] I’m pretty sure that I put my guitar parts down immediately after. I do have some distinct memories of this one because the verse and the chorus are very different. The chorus is very big and heavy whereas the verse is very quiet. I remember listening to it in the car the day it was to be mixed and thinking that my guitar wasn’t good enough. I told them to give me one more go, and I planned that little piece in stereo that happens in verse two which I really like. It’s that sort of bell effect between two guitars. So I know I did some extra work on that one in the light of having lived with it for a couple of weeks.
[b]What are some of your favorite Brian May moments after all these years?[/b]
I like the “Killer Queen” solo—I feel very proud of that. That was a dream fulfilled, because [i]I always wanted to do something that could stand up as a three-voice solo[/i]. I still enjoy listening to that one. [i]There’s a certain amount of pre-planned playing but it contains a certain amount of creativity as well.[/i] So I like the sound of it and I like the track all the way through. As a pop record, to me it’s almost perfect. There’s so much space in it and because of the space everything sounds big and clear and beautiful. [i]A lot of that is due to Freddie’s big vision to bring it together.
[/i]
Here's an interview from Guitar Player magazine which shows the collaborative process. It demonstrates that although sometimes the whole song might be mapped out in advance by one member, the others would often change things around:
[url=http://www.guitarplayer.com/article/queens-brian-may/jan-08/32483]http://www.guitarplayer.com/article/queens-brian-may/jan-08/32483[/url]
[b]All four of you wrote songs. How complete would the songs be when a writer would bring them in?[/b]
[i]With all of us we would have the idea pretty much developed.[/i] John didn’t sing, so generally he would have to talk Freddie through it, but[i] he would have very clear ideas on what he wanted[/i]. For instance, when John brought in “You’re My Best Friend,” it was pretty well mapped out—he even played the keyboard on that tune.
[b]Would he give you direction on your guitar parts?
[/b][i]Oh yeah [laughs]. He would try. We would all try, but generally there would be a process of discussion. It was a good, healthy situation where we’d work together to find the best parts.
[/i]
[b]When Freddie brought in “We Are the Champions,” how long was it before you guys had the arrangement that we hear on the record?
[/b]Well, arrangement is two things:[i] It’s what happens next, [/i]and it’s what’s happening in parallel—what the texture is at any one point. As far as what happens next, I think Freddie had that very early on. With his piano part, the song is mapped. Normally he would put down the piano part with Roger and John live and when it was good enough, after three or four takes, that would be what we used. And that’s pretty much what happened with “Champions.” [i]At this point I’m playing around and working out what I’m going to do.[/i] [i]I get the chance plan it in my head while I’m listening to them do the backing tracks.[/i] I’m pretty sure that I put my guitar parts down immediately after. I do have some distinct memories of this one because the verse and the chorus are very different. The chorus is very big and heavy whereas the verse is very quiet. I remember listening to it in the car the day it was to be mixed and thinking that my guitar wasn’t good enough. I told them to give me one more go, and I planned that little piece in stereo that happens in verse two which I really like. It’s that sort of bell effect between two guitars. So I know I did some extra work on that one in the light of having lived with it for a couple of weeks.
[b]What are some of your favorite Brian May moments after all these years?[/b]
I like the “Killer Queen” solo—I feel very proud of that. That was a dream fulfilled, because [i]I always wanted to do something that could stand up as a three-voice solo[/i]. I still enjoy listening to that one. [i]There’s a certain amount of pre-planned playing but it contains a certain amount of creativity as well.[/i] So I like the sound of it and I like the track all the way through. As a pop record, to me it’s almost perfect. There’s so much space in it and because of the space everything sounds big and clear and beautiful. [i]A lot of that is due to Freddie’s big vision to bring it together.
[/i]