[QUOTE]
[b]Holly2003 wrote: [/b]
Seb, I don;t think your analogies quite stand up to scrutiny. I could sing a song I had composed but it wouldn;'t be very good. I could ask a real singer to sing it and it would be an improvement. But I couldn't compose intricate guitar solos for a professional guitarist to play. Vocals and instruments are different in that respect -- a certain amount of expertise is required. Roger is not a good guitarist. Where in the world did you get that idea from?
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Yes, you could, if you were familiar enough with music theory and the *basics* of guitar. If you know that a guitar has six strings, tuned mostly to perfect fourths (EADG and BD) and one major third (GB), and each fret raises the pitch by a half-step, you just need to ask your guitarist how far his reach in number of frets is on different sections of the neck to compose a solo. By far the largest input of the performer is in dynamics, speed, phrasing and the likes. Guitarists will often find a fingering themselves for a particular score written in standard notation.
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A Whole lot of words to try and "prove" your opinion. You seem to forget that they were actually a band who usually functioned and worked as a band. The idea that anyone other than Roger ever "composed" anything he played is pretty laughable... suggesting things also isn't the same as composing.. I doubt there are any home demos where there are even drums present. And if any of them were wanting to dictate how another part was played, they played it them fucking selves. I'm pretty sure Brian even once mentioned on his soapbox that he was usually happy with what John put down... pretty much confirming that he didn't write the basslines for his own songs, let alone the drums (because of course..... you write drum lines don't you!)
> Yes, you could, if you were familiar enough with music theory and the *basics* of guitar.
And even if you weren''t. I don't think Brian's a clarinetist, yet he wrote a marvellous line for clarinet, which was then played by himself on guitar, but it can easily be made by a clarinet and is more natural on that instrument. Indeed, writing for vocals and for instruments is NOT that different.
> you just need to ask your guitarist how far his reach in number of frets is on different sections of the neck to compose a solo.
Not even that: you can sing it, write it (notation) or play it on another instrument.
> A Whole lot of words to try and "prove" your opinion.
It's not an opinion, but a fact.
> You seem to forget that they were actually a band who usually functioned and worked as a band.
As they've always said, the writer of the song was its owner, and they all did things his own way. So, when it came to making decisions (e.g. album title, where to tour, etc) they were a democracy, but when it came to writing and arranging, the creator was the boss, the others were there to perform (and *sometimes* arrange).
> The idea that anyone other than Roger ever "composed" anything he played is pretty laughable...
It happened: a lot. Just like many of the melodies and words Freddie sang were not written by him, there are many drum parts Roger didn't write. He admitted himself that Sweet Lady was difficult because Brian wanted to have three things at the same time, and it was a bit hard to understand (implying Brian wrote the drum part). And as I said, the synth era brought loads of innovations: May could programme a drum machine and then Taylor replaced it by acoustic drums, but then again, he's PLAYED them but not COMPOSED the part.
> suggesting things also isn't the same as composing...
And playing things isn't the same as composing them
> I doubt there are any home demos where there are even drums present.
So?
> And if any of them were wanting to dictate how another part was played, they played it them fucking selves.
Wrong: you can compose something you're not able to play. Could Mozart sing all the bass, tenor, alto and soprano arias he wrote? Could Deacon sing all the melodies he'd written? Could Freddie play the orchestral instruments he co-scored for 'Barcelona'? Can Ben Elton deliver his lines as marvellously as Rowan Atkinson? Could Joaquin Rodrigo play the Aranjuez Concerto? Could Beethoven play all lines of all instruments of his symphonies? Can an ugly fashion designer model her dresses as graciously as Twiggy?
Just like May composed Show Must Go On but couldn't sing it like Freddie, there are many drum parts he could compose but couldn't play (or sounded a hell of a lot better when played by Roger). Same for bass, piano, etc.
> I'm pretty sure Brian even once mentioned on his soapbox that he was usually happy with what John put down...
Which doesn't mean he composed it. May was also very happy with the vocal Freddie did in [i]The Show Must Go On[/i], but it doesn't change the fact that Brian wrote it.
> pretty much confirming that he didn't write the basslines for his own songs
Actually, he did, more often than not.
> let alone the drums (because of course..... you write drum lines don't you!)
I don't, Brian does, and very well btw. Cozy Powell, Roger Taylor and other drummers have done a marvellous job PLAYING drum parts that May COMPOSED.
And even if you weren''t. I don't think Brian's a clarinetist, yet he wrote a marvellous line for clarinet, which was then played by himself on guitar, but it can easily be made by a clarinet and is more natural on that instrument. Indeed, writing for vocals and for instruments is NOT that different.
> you just need to ask your guitarist how far his reach in number of frets is on different sections of the neck to compose a solo.
Not even that: you can sing it, write it (notation) or play it on another instrument.
> A Whole lot of words to try and "prove" your opinion.
It's not an opinion, but a fact.
> You seem to forget that they were actually a band who usually functioned and worked as a band.
As they've always said, the writer of the song was its owner, and they all did things his own way. So, when it came to making decisions (e.g. album title, where to tour, etc) they were a democracy, but when it came to writing and arranging, the creator was the boss, the others were there to perform (and *sometimes* arrange).
> The idea that anyone other than Roger ever "composed" anything he played is pretty laughable...
It happened: a lot. Just like many of the melodies and words Freddie sang were not written by him, there are many drum parts Roger didn't write. He admitted himself that Sweet Lady was difficult because Brian wanted to have three things at the same time, and it was a bit hard to understand (implying Brian wrote the drum part). And as I said, the synth era brought loads of innovations: May could programme a drum machine and then Taylor replaced it by acoustic drums, but then again, he's PLAYED them but not COMPOSED the part.
> suggesting things also isn't the same as composing...
And playing things isn't the same as composing them
> I doubt there are any home demos where there are even drums present.
So?
> And if any of them were wanting to dictate how another part was played, they played it them fucking selves.
Wrong: you can compose something you're not able to play. Could Mozart sing all the bass, tenor, alto and soprano arias he wrote? Could Deacon sing all the melodies he'd written? Could Freddie play the orchestral instruments he co-scored for 'Barcelona'? Can Ben Elton deliver his lines as marvellously as Rowan Atkinson? Could Joaquin Rodrigo play the Aranjuez Concerto? Could Beethoven play all lines of all instruments of his symphonies? Can an ugly fashion designer model her dresses as graciously as Twiggy?
Just like May composed Show Must Go On but couldn't sing it like Freddie, there are many drum parts he could compose but couldn't play (or sounded a hell of a lot better when played by Roger). Same for bass, piano, etc.
> I'm pretty sure Brian even once mentioned on his soapbox that he was usually happy with what John put down...
Which doesn't mean he composed it. May was also very happy with the vocal Freddie did in [i]The Show Must Go On[/i], but it doesn't change the fact that Brian wrote it.
> pretty much confirming that he didn't write the basslines for his own songs
Actually, he did, more often than not.
> let alone the drums (because of course..... you write drum lines don't you!)
I don't, Brian does, and very well btw. Cozy Powell, Roger Taylor and other drummers have done a marvellous job PLAYING drum parts that May COMPOSED.
Fair enough Seb, but what do you make of Brian's interview where he discusses how songs that are already sketched out by the composer are often changed by the rest of the band? ISn't there more than enough there to suggest that your argument ("more often than not") is a bit dubious? This isn't a one-off interview either: Roger has said basically the same thing as Brian.
> With all of us [b]we would have the idea pretty much developed[/b].
Indeed that confirms what I said.
> John didn’t sing, so generally he would have to talk Freddie through it, but [b]he would have very clear ideas on what he wanted.[/b]
Ditto
> For instance, when John brought in “You’re My Best Friend,” [b]it was pretty well mapped out[/b]—he even played the keyboard on that tune.
Ditto
> Oh yeah [laughs]. He would try. We would all try, [b]but generally there would be a process of discussion[/b]. It was a good, healthy situation where we’d work together to find the best parts.
'A process of discussion' is completely different to 'the guitarist writes the guitar parts, the drummer writes the drum parts...'.
Now, there are two main points in this discussion:
- Can a person who's not a drummer write for drums, or a person who's not a guitarist write for guitar, or a person who'se not a bassist write for bass? [b]Absolutely.[/b] So, it's absolutely possible that Bowie came up with UP bass-line (even if he wasn't a very good bassist), that May came up with the [i]Sweet Lady [/i]drum part (which he did, although I doubt he could play it), that Taylor came up with certain piano parts (even if he couldn't play them), that Mercury could (and did) write for bass, drums and guitars even if he couldn't play those bits, etc.
- Did Queen members leave the others create their own parts? Depends on the actual song. When I update my website, that'd be a nice addition: analysing each instrumental part and suggest (for I can't know for sure) whether the creator of the song also wrote it or whether somebody else contributed.
I still think that [b]more often than not...[/b], and indeed [i]Don't Stop Me Now[/i] is one of those 'not' cases.
Indeed that confirms what I said.
> John didn’t sing, so generally he would have to talk Freddie through it, but [b]he would have very clear ideas on what he wanted.[/b]
Ditto
> For instance, when John brought in “You’re My Best Friend,” [b]it was pretty well mapped out[/b]—he even played the keyboard on that tune.
Ditto
> Oh yeah [laughs]. He would try. We would all try, [b]but generally there would be a process of discussion[/b]. It was a good, healthy situation where we’d work together to find the best parts.
'A process of discussion' is completely different to 'the guitarist writes the guitar parts, the drummer writes the drum parts...'.
Now, there are two main points in this discussion:
- Can a person who's not a drummer write for drums, or a person who's not a guitarist write for guitar, or a person who'se not a bassist write for bass? [b]Absolutely.[/b] So, it's absolutely possible that Bowie came up with UP bass-line (even if he wasn't a very good bassist), that May came up with the [i]Sweet Lady [/i]drum part (which he did, although I doubt he could play it), that Taylor came up with certain piano parts (even if he couldn't play them), that Mercury could (and did) write for bass, drums and guitars even if he couldn't play those bits, etc.
- Did Queen members leave the others create their own parts? Depends on the actual song. When I update my website, that'd be a nice addition: analysing each instrumental part and suggest (for I can't know for sure) whether the creator of the song also wrote it or whether somebody else contributed.
I still think that [b]more often than not...[/b], and indeed [i]Don't Stop Me Now[/i] is one of those 'not' cases.
Seb you have picked one part of the interview and ignored the rest! The first bit does indeed say that the songs were often mapped out in advance (that's why I put those bits in italics). But Brian then goes on to say how those songs wyld then be subject to group discussion. Brian also says that John would even have guitar bits planned out for Brian to play but infers clearly that Brian would then put his own stamp on the solo. he also mentions the collaborative process for Killer Queen in which Brian states that it was he who came up with the 'bells' guitar solo. He also mentions the WATC solo that he created!
Killer Queen and WaTC are two songs in a 100+ song discography. They don't necessarily represent the rest (just like [i]One Vision[/i] hardly represents their catalogue). And again, 'discussion' isn't the same as 'the bassist wrote the bass-line', etc.
I'm still interested in how this discussion opened in two big points: if they could, and if they did. The latter is to some extent debatable, but I still can't believe how some QZers still think only a drummer can write for drums, etc.
Anyway, this has been one of the best debates on the forum these last months.
I'm still interested in how this discussion opened in two big points: if they could, and if they did. The latter is to some extent debatable, but I still can't believe how some QZers still think only a drummer can write for drums, etc.
Anyway, this has been one of the best debates on the forum these last months.
I don't disagree entirely, Sebastian, but I can't accept it when you call it "fact" that Queen's writers wrote most parts for their own songs. Every song is different, some came in completely finished, others were in studio collaborations. I can see germs of ideas coming from the writer i.e., "I'd like this pattern for the drums Roger", but again, it depends on the particular song. They may be two different schools of thought, but I'm sensing an inconsistency in your argument. On the one hand, you state (correctly) that you don't have to be a singer/bassist/guitarist etc. to be able to write parts for other instruments. Yet on the other hand, in the past you've dismissed the possibility that Roger could have written Innuendo based on the fact that the composition is so unlike him musically. Isn't it possible that all of the time he spent with Freddie took him to a place that he could communicate his thoughts verbally as to where the music should go, in the manner that John conveyed the vocal lines for his songs? Agree that this is a rare good discussion.
I don't know much about the technical side of music, but I was wondering if there are any instruments which are particularly difficult to compose for if one doesn't know the instrument all that well? For example, while Freddie may be able to compose for guitars, could he in fact compose complex arrangements for drums?
[QUOTE]
[b]Sheer Brass Neck wrote: [/b]
I don't disagree entirely, Sebastian, but I can't accept it when you call it "fact" that Queen's writers wrote most parts for their own songs. Every song is different, some came in completely finished, others were in studio collaborations. I can see germs of ideas coming from the writer i.e., "I'd like this pattern for the drums Roger", but again, it depends on the particular song. They may be two different schools of thought, but I'm sensing an inconsistency in your argument. On the one hand, you state (correctly) that you don't have to be a singer/bassist/guitarist etc. to be able to write parts for other instruments. Yet on the other hand, in the past you've dismissed the possibility that Roger could have written Innuendo based on the fact that the composition is so unlike him musically. Isn't it possible that all of the time he spent with Freddie took him to a place that he could communicate his thoughts verbally as to where the music should go, in the manner that John conveyed the vocal lines for his songs? Agree that this is a rare good discussion.
[/QUOTE]
Fair enough: I agree with most of your post (especially the 'every song is different' bit), except the [i]Innuendo[/i] thing. The reason: it's not the same, although on the surface it looks like a similar case. Consider the following:
- You don't need to be a bassist to compose an elaborated bass line, but you do need to be a composer and/or arranger. So of course it's possible for May to write, note for note, the bass-line in [i]Show Must Go On[/i], even if he couldn't play it that well. But it doesn't mean Britney Spears can compose a symphony, or score a choral arrangement.
- For that same reason, of course Roger could write a guitar solo like [i]Modern Times R'n'R[/i], even if he couldn't play it (disclaimer: I'm not assuming he [b]did[/b] it, but I'm stating he [b]was able to[/b] compose it), because that solo requires *only* a basic knowledge of scalar fragments in quavers (which he did, since the vocal melody follows a similar formula) and enough creativity (which Taylor of course had). It's got nothing to do with guitar ability per se.
- In the case of [i]Innuendo[/i], composing the song (as in organising the structure, executing the modulations, putting all those time-signature changes), it's not only about creativity and the controversial notion of 'innate talent'. You need more than that: you need to be proficient on composing details in a way Roger wasn't (which doesn't mean Freddie was 'better', but of course he was far more advanced). It's like me trying to write French poetry, when all I can say in that language is a (rather poor) 'je m'a pelle Sebastian' (and I reckon I spelt it wrong).
- Conclusion: it's not the same. The fact that 'you don't need to be an expert on the instrument in order to compose for it' doesn't mean that 'anybody can write anything out of thin air'. Of course, Queen were professional musicians, and that's why my point stands: Brian was clever enough to create a drum part, even if he couldn't play it; but try asking Justin Timberlake to compose a trumpet concerto... we're talking about different musicianship levels here.
- To add a bit more, writing a bass-line, a piano-part or a choral arrangement over a song (melody+chords) you composed yourself (e.g. Taylor writing piano parts on his own songs) is completely different to coming up with a 20+ chord 3+ key-change 3+ metre change piece overnight. In that department, composing and arranging are different worlds.
PS: Technically, 'more often than not' isn't the same as 'most parts for their own songs'. Tad different percentage.
> I was wondering if there are any instruments which are particularly difficult to compose for if one doesn't know the instrument all that well?
Very good question. It always depends on the case: professional composers need to have at least a clear idea of what the instrument can and can't do (or the instrumentalist, if you're deliberately writing the part for another person, which may be the case in Queen very often). Sometimes not knowing the instrument very well may result in coming up with very interesting parts for it, like when Brian wrote the drum-part for [i]Sweet Lady[/i]: it's very original, very clever and quite difficult, precisely because it was composed by a person who wasn't familiar with the way drummers normally think. Talk about serendipity!
Likewise, many complicated classical guitar pieces may come from piano players, because they've got a different approach, which challenges the guitarist's comfort zone, and that's why they're both interesting and difficult (sometimes). Now, even though it's not complicated or classical, the [i]Innuendo [/i]solo (the basic pattern) is written on a very pianistic way, which may suggest it was written on keyboards first. Same as many of Brian's solos (both the ones he wrote and the ones he *only* played, very well btw) originated by singing.
> For example, while Freddie may be able to compose for guitars, could he in fact compose complex arrangements for drums
On the one hand, remember the case of May and [i]Sweet Lady[/i]. On the other, none of the drum arrangements in Freddie's songs is very complex as such. None of the drum arrangements in Roger's songs is either, to be fair :) (maybe [i]Loser in the End[/i] at the ...end, but that's not much complex as it is creative and clever, which isn't necessarily the same).
[b]Sheer Brass Neck wrote: [/b]
I don't disagree entirely, Sebastian, but I can't accept it when you call it "fact" that Queen's writers wrote most parts for their own songs. Every song is different, some came in completely finished, others were in studio collaborations. I can see germs of ideas coming from the writer i.e., "I'd like this pattern for the drums Roger", but again, it depends on the particular song. They may be two different schools of thought, but I'm sensing an inconsistency in your argument. On the one hand, you state (correctly) that you don't have to be a singer/bassist/guitarist etc. to be able to write parts for other instruments. Yet on the other hand, in the past you've dismissed the possibility that Roger could have written Innuendo based on the fact that the composition is so unlike him musically. Isn't it possible that all of the time he spent with Freddie took him to a place that he could communicate his thoughts verbally as to where the music should go, in the manner that John conveyed the vocal lines for his songs? Agree that this is a rare good discussion.
[/QUOTE]
Fair enough: I agree with most of your post (especially the 'every song is different' bit), except the [i]Innuendo[/i] thing. The reason: it's not the same, although on the surface it looks like a similar case. Consider the following:
- You don't need to be a bassist to compose an elaborated bass line, but you do need to be a composer and/or arranger. So of course it's possible for May to write, note for note, the bass-line in [i]Show Must Go On[/i], even if he couldn't play it that well. But it doesn't mean Britney Spears can compose a symphony, or score a choral arrangement.
- For that same reason, of course Roger could write a guitar solo like [i]Modern Times R'n'R[/i], even if he couldn't play it (disclaimer: I'm not assuming he [b]did[/b] it, but I'm stating he [b]was able to[/b] compose it), because that solo requires *only* a basic knowledge of scalar fragments in quavers (which he did, since the vocal melody follows a similar formula) and enough creativity (which Taylor of course had). It's got nothing to do with guitar ability per se.
- In the case of [i]Innuendo[/i], composing the song (as in organising the structure, executing the modulations, putting all those time-signature changes), it's not only about creativity and the controversial notion of 'innate talent'. You need more than that: you need to be proficient on composing details in a way Roger wasn't (which doesn't mean Freddie was 'better', but of course he was far more advanced). It's like me trying to write French poetry, when all I can say in that language is a (rather poor) 'je m'a pelle Sebastian' (and I reckon I spelt it wrong).
- Conclusion: it's not the same. The fact that 'you don't need to be an expert on the instrument in order to compose for it' doesn't mean that 'anybody can write anything out of thin air'. Of course, Queen were professional musicians, and that's why my point stands: Brian was clever enough to create a drum part, even if he couldn't play it; but try asking Justin Timberlake to compose a trumpet concerto... we're talking about different musicianship levels here.
- To add a bit more, writing a bass-line, a piano-part or a choral arrangement over a song (melody+chords) you composed yourself (e.g. Taylor writing piano parts on his own songs) is completely different to coming up with a 20+ chord 3+ key-change 3+ metre change piece overnight. In that department, composing and arranging are different worlds.
PS: Technically, 'more often than not' isn't the same as 'most parts for their own songs'. Tad different percentage.
> I was wondering if there are any instruments which are particularly difficult to compose for if one doesn't know the instrument all that well?
Very good question. It always depends on the case: professional composers need to have at least a clear idea of what the instrument can and can't do (or the instrumentalist, if you're deliberately writing the part for another person, which may be the case in Queen very often). Sometimes not knowing the instrument very well may result in coming up with very interesting parts for it, like when Brian wrote the drum-part for [i]Sweet Lady[/i]: it's very original, very clever and quite difficult, precisely because it was composed by a person who wasn't familiar with the way drummers normally think. Talk about serendipity!
Likewise, many complicated classical guitar pieces may come from piano players, because they've got a different approach, which challenges the guitarist's comfort zone, and that's why they're both interesting and difficult (sometimes). Now, even though it's not complicated or classical, the [i]Innuendo [/i]solo (the basic pattern) is written on a very pianistic way, which may suggest it was written on keyboards first. Same as many of Brian's solos (both the ones he wrote and the ones he *only* played, very well btw) originated by singing.
> For example, while Freddie may be able to compose for guitars, could he in fact compose complex arrangements for drums
On the one hand, remember the case of May and [i]Sweet Lady[/i]. On the other, none of the drum arrangements in Freddie's songs is very complex as such. None of the drum arrangements in Roger's songs is either, to be fair :) (maybe [i]Loser in the End[/i] at the ...end, but that's not much complex as it is creative and clever, which isn't necessarily the same).
[QUOTE]
[b]Sebastian wrote: [/b]
Killer Queen and WaTC are two songs in a 100+ song discography. They don't necessarily represent the rest (just like [i]One Vision[/i] hardly represents their catalogue). And again, 'discussion' isn't the same as 'the bassist wrote the bass-line', etc.
I'm still interested in how this discussion opened in two big points: if they could, and if they did. The latter is to some extent debatable, but I still can't believe how some QZers still think only a drummer can write for drums, etc.
Anyway, this has been one of the best debates on the forum these last months.
[/QUOTE]
Indeed, but those are just the ones that came up in that short interview that I found at random. When you add Bo Rap to that list, and (probably) Dont Stop me Now, then it seems that Brian's contention that (many? most? some?) songs were genuinely a group effort, makes it less likely that your are correct. In fact, I would say common sense says that you aren't: it's simply much more likely that on something like KYA (for example) Brian didn't 'write' or even direct the drum break, but simply asked Roger to compose it. Or maybe there was no drum solo in the original song composed by Brian and it was Roger's idea to include one. To pick some other random examples, Brighton Rock is Brian's but it started as a jam session, so it's unlikely that Brian wrote the drum or bass. On the other hand, it's not hard to imagine Roger writing the rhythm guitar lines for Brian in IILWMC but I just can't picture him writing the solos. It's much more likely Brian composed those himself. The Propeht's song is an interesting one: what's your take on that? Do you think Brian or Fred composed the vocal 'improv' in the middle section?
I agree this is a great subject. I'm fascinated by composition and breakdown of songs and I wish it was something Queen had the will or foresight to put down on film. A long time ago I saw a documentary about the Beatles, a fly on the wall look at them recording, and I often wish Queen had done something similar, The one time they did do it, for One Vision, the awful torpedo twins edited the footage so poorly that we only have a glimpse of how that session went.
[b]Sebastian wrote: [/b]
Killer Queen and WaTC are two songs in a 100+ song discography. They don't necessarily represent the rest (just like [i]One Vision[/i] hardly represents their catalogue). And again, 'discussion' isn't the same as 'the bassist wrote the bass-line', etc.
I'm still interested in how this discussion opened in two big points: if they could, and if they did. The latter is to some extent debatable, but I still can't believe how some QZers still think only a drummer can write for drums, etc.
Anyway, this has been one of the best debates on the forum these last months.
[/QUOTE]
Indeed, but those are just the ones that came up in that short interview that I found at random. When you add Bo Rap to that list, and (probably) Dont Stop me Now, then it seems that Brian's contention that (many? most? some?) songs were genuinely a group effort, makes it less likely that your are correct. In fact, I would say common sense says that you aren't: it's simply much more likely that on something like KYA (for example) Brian didn't 'write' or even direct the drum break, but simply asked Roger to compose it. Or maybe there was no drum solo in the original song composed by Brian and it was Roger's idea to include one. To pick some other random examples, Brighton Rock is Brian's but it started as a jam session, so it's unlikely that Brian wrote the drum or bass. On the other hand, it's not hard to imagine Roger writing the rhythm guitar lines for Brian in IILWMC but I just can't picture him writing the solos. It's much more likely Brian composed those himself. The Propeht's song is an interesting one: what's your take on that? Do you think Brian or Fred composed the vocal 'improv' in the middle section?
I agree this is a great subject. I'm fascinated by composition and breakdown of songs and I wish it was something Queen had the will or foresight to put down on film. A long time ago I saw a documentary about the Beatles, a fly on the wall look at them recording, and I often wish Queen had done something similar, The one time they did do it, for One Vision, the awful torpedo twins edited the footage so poorly that we only have a glimpse of how that session went.
Queen debut album was reportedly more collaborative so maybe Rog did create the drum break in [i]KYA[/i], but as for the verse+chorus pattern, I'm pretty sure it's all May.
[i]Brighton Rock [/i]bass-line is very Jones-esque, so I expect that to come from May (a more Zeppelin fan) rather than Deacy. Same for [i]Doing All Right[/i]. John played them, but didn't compose them.
[i]Prophet's Song[/i]: All May, note for note. Live, Fred did add some of his own things.
As for solos in Roger's songs, let's see:
[i]Modern Times Rock 'n' Roll[/i]: Roger couldn't play it, but he of course could compose it (for reasons already explained).
[i]Loser in the End[/i]: To create the fills after some vocal phrases, you don't need to be a guitarist: you only need to have some basic knowledge of blues-rooted rock (which Roger had). Even if Taylor weren't able to play guitar at all (hell, even if he had no hands!) he could compose that as long as he's got enough skills as songwriter (which he had, this is Roger Taylor we're talking about, not Justin Timberlake). Same for the actual solo and the ending bits. Now, the biggest possibility is that neither Roger nor Brian composed those things beforehand: they sound more improvised than anything.
[i]Tenement Funster[/i]: Again, the solo uses loads of scalar fragments, and so do the fills (actually, some of them do the same as backing vocals). As long as you've got enough creativity and imagination, you can have no hands but you can still compose it. And of course, Rog had enough knowledge to create that even if he couldn't play it.
[i]I'm in Love With My Car:[/i] Though there's no solo as such, the fills are, again, mostly scalar, and the licks done to complete the vocal phrases are again something Roger could easily compose, even if he didn't play them.
[i]Drowse:[/i] You don't need to be a guitarist to create that two-chord slide bit that dominates the song.
[i]Sheer Heart Attack[/i]: The feedback bits are probably more improvised than written. But look: on [i]FftI[/i], both May and Taylor are credited for guitars, here only Taylor.
[i]Fight from the Inside:[/i] No solo as such, and guitar fills follow a similar construction to the vocals. Hence, whoever wrote the vocals could write the guitars.
[i]Fun It, More of that Jazz[/i]: Ditto
[i]Rock It: [/i]Great solo, but again, you don't need to be a guitarist to compose it, you've got to know knowledge of ascending fragments and rhythm dynamics (which Roger, a drummer, is an expert on).
[i]Coming Soon: [/i]The whole hocket concept (so-so) is similar to the 'duet' formed by vocals on [i]Action this Day[/i]. Again, whoever wrote one could (and most likely did) write the other. You don't need to be a guitarist, just a composer (and Roger was, and a very good one!).
[i]Action this Day & Calling All Girls:[/i] No solo as such, and some parts are probably played by Rog himself.
[i]Radio Ga Ga:[/i] All guitar does is some arpeggios (which appear on loads of Roger's songs) and that solo that's got about three or four notes... even Roger's toddler son could compose that!
[i]A Kind of Magic: [/i]For this particular one I suspect that Mercury could've had more input than anyone else. Mostly ascending (and descending) diatonic scales working antiphonally. Again, you don't need to be a guitarist to compose that. May did an extraordinary job playing those, but he didn't write the notes.
[i]Don't Lose Your Head: [/i]No solo as such.
[i]Breakthru: [/i]Again, there's scalar dominance. You don't need to be a guitarist to write that. The only thing that was probably not Roger's idea was the additional measure with the 'addendum' to modulate. But that's not related to playing guitar or not: that's related with a compositional vocabulary Roger didn't have enough command on (and reportedly he hated modulations so...).
[i]Invisible Man[/i]: That's one Roger probably wouldn't compose. But the reason isn't 'not being a guitarist', the reason is not having enough experience in chromatic fragments organised that way.
[i]Ride the Wild Wind:[/i] To create those ascending guitar things in the intro you don't need to be a guitarist, you just need to be a creative person, and Roger was, very much. Same for the synth parts, even if he didn't play them. Same for the bass indeed.
[i]Days of Our Lives[/i]: Roger's command of such dynamics wasn't up for the job. But then again, that's got [b]nothing[/b] to do with not playing guitar.
So, as you can see: [b]more often than not[/b], Roger could have easily composed all the guitar parts of his own songs. And in some cases he also played them.
Can Brian write a flute solo? Of course he can, even if he doesn't play the instrument.
Can Roger write a piano piece? Of course he can, even if he can't play it himself.
Can Deacon write a four-part vocal harmony? Of course he can, even if he needs other to sing it.
Could Mercury compose an orchestral bass line? Of course he could, even if he couldn't play it.
[i]Brighton Rock [/i]bass-line is very Jones-esque, so I expect that to come from May (a more Zeppelin fan) rather than Deacy. Same for [i]Doing All Right[/i]. John played them, but didn't compose them.
[i]Prophet's Song[/i]: All May, note for note. Live, Fred did add some of his own things.
As for solos in Roger's songs, let's see:
[i]Modern Times Rock 'n' Roll[/i]: Roger couldn't play it, but he of course could compose it (for reasons already explained).
[i]Loser in the End[/i]: To create the fills after some vocal phrases, you don't need to be a guitarist: you only need to have some basic knowledge of blues-rooted rock (which Roger had). Even if Taylor weren't able to play guitar at all (hell, even if he had no hands!) he could compose that as long as he's got enough skills as songwriter (which he had, this is Roger Taylor we're talking about, not Justin Timberlake). Same for the actual solo and the ending bits. Now, the biggest possibility is that neither Roger nor Brian composed those things beforehand: they sound more improvised than anything.
[i]Tenement Funster[/i]: Again, the solo uses loads of scalar fragments, and so do the fills (actually, some of them do the same as backing vocals). As long as you've got enough creativity and imagination, you can have no hands but you can still compose it. And of course, Rog had enough knowledge to create that even if he couldn't play it.
[i]I'm in Love With My Car:[/i] Though there's no solo as such, the fills are, again, mostly scalar, and the licks done to complete the vocal phrases are again something Roger could easily compose, even if he didn't play them.
[i]Drowse:[/i] You don't need to be a guitarist to create that two-chord slide bit that dominates the song.
[i]Sheer Heart Attack[/i]: The feedback bits are probably more improvised than written. But look: on [i]FftI[/i], both May and Taylor are credited for guitars, here only Taylor.
[i]Fight from the Inside:[/i] No solo as such, and guitar fills follow a similar construction to the vocals. Hence, whoever wrote the vocals could write the guitars.
[i]Fun It, More of that Jazz[/i]: Ditto
[i]Rock It: [/i]Great solo, but again, you don't need to be a guitarist to compose it, you've got to know knowledge of ascending fragments and rhythm dynamics (which Roger, a drummer, is an expert on).
[i]Coming Soon: [/i]The whole hocket concept (so-so) is similar to the 'duet' formed by vocals on [i]Action this Day[/i]. Again, whoever wrote one could (and most likely did) write the other. You don't need to be a guitarist, just a composer (and Roger was, and a very good one!).
[i]Action this Day & Calling All Girls:[/i] No solo as such, and some parts are probably played by Rog himself.
[i]Radio Ga Ga:[/i] All guitar does is some arpeggios (which appear on loads of Roger's songs) and that solo that's got about three or four notes... even Roger's toddler son could compose that!
[i]A Kind of Magic: [/i]For this particular one I suspect that Mercury could've had more input than anyone else. Mostly ascending (and descending) diatonic scales working antiphonally. Again, you don't need to be a guitarist to compose that. May did an extraordinary job playing those, but he didn't write the notes.
[i]Don't Lose Your Head: [/i]No solo as such.
[i]Breakthru: [/i]Again, there's scalar dominance. You don't need to be a guitarist to write that. The only thing that was probably not Roger's idea was the additional measure with the 'addendum' to modulate. But that's not related to playing guitar or not: that's related with a compositional vocabulary Roger didn't have enough command on (and reportedly he hated modulations so...).
[i]Invisible Man[/i]: That's one Roger probably wouldn't compose. But the reason isn't 'not being a guitarist', the reason is not having enough experience in chromatic fragments organised that way.
[i]Ride the Wild Wind:[/i] To create those ascending guitar things in the intro you don't need to be a guitarist, you just need to be a creative person, and Roger was, very much. Same for the synth parts, even if he didn't play them. Same for the bass indeed.
[i]Days of Our Lives[/i]: Roger's command of such dynamics wasn't up for the job. But then again, that's got [b]nothing[/b] to do with not playing guitar.
So, as you can see: [b]more often than not[/b], Roger could have easily composed all the guitar parts of his own songs. And in some cases he also played them.
Can Brian write a flute solo? Of course he can, even if he doesn't play the instrument.
Can Roger write a piano piece? Of course he can, even if he can't play it himself.
Can Deacon write a four-part vocal harmony? Of course he can, even if he needs other to sing it.
Could Mercury compose an orchestral bass line? Of course he could, even if he couldn't play it.
Not to stray from the topic, but the mere mention of the TATDOOL solo brings me back to an early 90's guitar magazine I have where Nuno Bettencourt interviews Brian May. He says that solo was one take?
1 or 100 takes, it's beautiful!
1 or 100 takes, it's beautiful!
I think that's the best solo on a Queen song. WWTLF is a close second.
BTW, more often than not, the guitar solos were done in one take (not necessarily the first, but one take anyway).
BTW, more often than not, the guitar solos were done in one take (not necessarily the first, but one take anyway).
Seb
I find your analysis fascinating .
I don't always agree but your take on it is very interesting.
What I do note is that you approach "pop" and "rock" composing from a classical standpoint talking of writing guitar solos as though they are part of a classical piece.
You have obviously not spent long working with a rock band or you have little experience of the group dynamics that exist there.
As we know credits for Queen songs were given to the one who came up with the original idea (all band members have confirmed this) Within a dynamic and opinionated band like queen it is likely that a rough demo would either show a basic (often VERY basic) guitar part for Brian to play around with until he came up with something that they agreed on or the composer would say "I need a guitar solo here, I thought that something like xxx would fit" , maybe singing an idea or often just leaving it up to the guitarist to work on.
There's also something called ego (and none of the band members were short on that) that gets in the way , Can you imagine saying to one of them, "ok I want you to play this note for note." The phrase "who's the F**king guitarist/bassist/drummer in this band" would have been heard a few times . That's not to say it didn't happen just that it was more likely the exception rather than the norm
I find your analysis fascinating .
I don't always agree but your take on it is very interesting.
What I do note is that you approach "pop" and "rock" composing from a classical standpoint talking of writing guitar solos as though they are part of a classical piece.
You have obviously not spent long working with a rock band or you have little experience of the group dynamics that exist there.
As we know credits for Queen songs were given to the one who came up with the original idea (all band members have confirmed this) Within a dynamic and opinionated band like queen it is likely that a rough demo would either show a basic (often VERY basic) guitar part for Brian to play around with until he came up with something that they agreed on or the composer would say "I need a guitar solo here, I thought that something like xxx would fit" , maybe singing an idea or often just leaving it up to the guitarist to work on.
There's also something called ego (and none of the band members were short on that) that gets in the way , Can you imagine saying to one of them, "ok I want you to play this note for note." The phrase "who's the F**king guitarist/bassist/drummer in this band" would have been heard a few times . That's not to say it didn't happen just that it was more likely the exception rather than the norm