John & Pittrek...so excited to hear this great share. cheers.
YourValentine thx for the torrent
teddi2002 · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]OwenSmith wrote:[/b]
Hmm, looks like no-one knows anything about this.
Not even an off air recording of these tracks from the Alan Freeman show? That would at least have the Matrix H encoding for sure.[/QUOTE]
I tried decoding a bit, and it seems to be encoded with the QS matrix. To decode Matrix H, you phase shift the right channel by +60 degrees and then run it through a QS decoder. Leaving the right channel unchanged did however produce much better results. In the rear channels, there's almost no lead vocal, but the echoed effects during the middle part of It's Late are very clear.
Edit:
Balancing the source better would probably produce better results. I'm not familiar with the compression algorithm of minidiscs, but at least mp3 stores certain frequencies mixed down to mono, which in turn cancels out the sound mixed directly behind the listener.
teddi2002 · Member since
The 2011 remasters bonus tracks still has this quadraphonic encoding. I did the maths myself and decoded them manually. The results are incredible so far! Would the decoded tracks be considered official, and thereby not allowed to shared here?
Ale Solan · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]teddi2002 wrote:[/b]
Would the decoded tracks be considered official, and thereby not allowed to shared here?
[/QUOTE]
No, otherwise they would have been deleted 4 years ago from this thread ;)
OwenSmith · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]teddi2002 wrote:[/b]
The 2011 remasters bonus tracks still has this quadraphonic encoding.
I did the maths myself and decoded them manually. The results are incredible so far!
Would the decoded tracks be considered official, and thereby not allowed to shared here?[/QUOTE]
I sent the 2011 bonus tracks to my quadraphonic contact and he claims they are not quad encoded at all. It is quite common to get a nice effect running stereo sources through a quad decoder due to natural phase changes in the recording. But then you are listening to something in a way that was not intended when it was recorded. Your choice, but not true quadraphonic.
OwenSmith · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]teddi2002 wrote:[/b]
I tried decoding a bit, and it seems to be encoded with the QS matrix. To decode Matrix H, you phase shift the right channel by +60 degrees and then run it through a QS decoder. Leaving the right channel unchanged did however produce much better results. In the rear channels, there's almost no lead vocal, but the echoed effects during the middle part of It's Late are very clear.[/QUOTE]
The 60 degrees phase shift is a hack to get something from a QS decoder, but it isn't a true decode of Matrix H. If you want to hear some true decodes of the small amount of Matrix H material available try this blog:
http://dreamingspiresquadarchive.wordpress.com/
teddi2002 · Member since
I did a bit of reading in to it, more precisely [url=http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1974-29.pdf]http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1974-29.pdf[/url] and [url=http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1977-02.pdf]http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1977-02.pdf[/url], and the "60 degree hack" is clearly documented in the latter report (page 5 and onwards). It is stated to produce slightly better results (closer to original quadraphonic mix) than a simple "proper" linear Matrix H decode.
According to my analysis, neither this share or the 2011 remasters (which should be the same mix) contain any indication of Matrix H encoded material. A pure QS 'logical' decode did produce some interesting results, which could be entirely coincidental as you said, but shouldn't SQ and Matrix H decoding also produce some interesting sounds in that case?
The Real Wizard · Member since
Good detective work.
This once led to a really discussion about the Golders Green Hippodrome 9-13-73 material..
Let's see what happens here..
aristide1 · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]teddi2002 wrote:[/b]
I did a bit of reading in to it, more precisely [url=http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1974-29.pdf]http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1974-29.pdf[/url] and [url=http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1977-02.pdf]http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1977-02.pdf[/url], and the "60 degree hack" is clearly documented in the latter report (page 5 and onwards). It is stated to produce slightly better results (closer to original quadraphonic mix) than a simple "proper" linear Matrix H decode.
According to my analysis, neither this share or the 2011 remasters (which should be the same mix) contain any indication of Matrix H encoded material. A pure QS 'logical' decode did produce some interesting results, which could be entirely coincidental as you said, but shouldn't SQ and Matrix H decoding also produce some interesting sounds in that case?[/QUOTE]
For sure, it is fun to play with quadrophonic decoding.
Even in the most happy situation (also the most unlikely one) - when the material is quad encoded and you find the correct decoding matrix - don't expect to a breathtaking surround experience. The only benefit will be a properly restored stereo image.
But if the original material has no obvious stereo compatibility issues, like in this case, there is nothing to restore.
teddi2002 · Member since
[QUOTE]
[b]The Real Wizard wrote: [/b] Good detective work.
This once led to a really discussion about the Golders Green Hippodrome 9-13-73 material..
Let's see what happens here.. [/QUOTE]
Indeed. The Golders Green concert is very likely SQ-encoded, as is documented here: [url=http://www.surrounddiscography.com/quaddisc/quadradi.htm#bbcsps]http://www.surrounddiscography.com/quaddisc/quadradi.htm#bbcsps[/url] and here: [url=http://www.surrounddiscography.com/quaddisc/Queen-BBC%20Presents.mp3]http://www.surrounddiscography.com/quaddisc/Queen-BBC%20Presents.mp3[/url].
But I've yet to find any indication or documentation pointing to this recording beeing recorded and broadcast in quadraphonic sound.
Unniendo · Member since
Thanks!
OwenSmith · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]teddi2002 wrote:[/b]
Indeed. The Golders Green concert is very likely SQ-encoded, as is documented here: [url=http://www.surrounddiscography.com/quaddisc/quadradi.htm#bbcsps]http://www.surrounddiscography.com/quaddisc/quadradi.htm#bbcsps[/url] and here: [url=http://www.surrounddiscography.com/quaddisc/Queen-BBC%20Presents.mp3]http://www.surrounddiscography.com/quaddisc/Queen-BBC%20Presents.mp3[/url].
But I've yet to find any indication or documentation pointing to this recording beeing recorded and broadcast in quadraphonic sound.[/QUOTE]
The online lists of quad discography are notoriously inaccurate, listing things as quad that aren't and omitting many things that are.
The last time Golder's Green came up I posted a picture in that thread of the BBC transcription disc for that concert. The disc label does not say SQ, so it's not SQ or any other quad encoded. The BBC transcription disc service were very careful about labelling and archives, in many cases the transcriptiom service archives are the only copies that remain at the BBC.
Also my friend who runs the qaud blog I linked to above tried a decode of Golders Green from several sources and could detect no quad encoding.
OwenSmith · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]teddi2002 wrote:[/b]
I did a bit of reading in to it, more precisely [url=http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1974-29.pdf]http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1974-29.pdf[/url] and [url=http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1977-02.pdf]http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/1977-02.pdf[/url], and the "60 degree hack" is clearly documented in the latter report (page 5 and onwards). It is stated to produce slightly better results (closer to original quadraphonic mix) than a simple "proper" linear Matrix H decode.
According to my analysis, neither this share or the 2011 remasters (which should be the same mix) contain any indication of Matrix H encoded material. A pure QS 'logical' decode did produce some interesting results, which could be entirely coincidental as you said, but shouldn't SQ and Matrix H decoding also produce some interesting sounds in that case?[/QUOTE]
The 60 degree QS thing is a hack. Yes it might have given the best results in 1977 with hardware decoders but things have moved on. My friend decodes things in software, where modern techniques can do much better phase shifts and channel seperation etc. than 1970s analogue hardware could ever achieve.
Good that you agree this is not Matrix H encoded. As I understand it the Matrix H broadcast was a separate remix done by Tony Wilson exlcusively for the Alan Freeman show. We're looking for different master tapes or an off air recording. Whether they still exist anywhere is doubtful.
Why does QS give a nice effect when SQ or Matrix H don't? Just chance based on what is in the original recording I suspect, depending on what is out of phase with what else.
