Silver Salmon Thread

In the end of  Siver Salmon, Brian does a pending, same pending does on Feeling or This Feeling(which title is correct?).
listen at 2:10   This song It sounds very Led Zeppelin, Queen and  Freddie sound like 1971-73.
So this song emerges to Silver salmon or the opposite? I don't know.

You can find it :
http://www.queenzone.com/forums/1235104/demo-and-convention-collection.aspx

Maybe we have a case of re-working an unreleased song during NOTW.

I was speaking of Silver Salmon long version, you can find it on youtube. In term of music is very early 70's, I thing they were re-working it during NOTW.

Sebastian wrote:
"And BTW, there's nothing to categorically state that Rog used timbales ONLY on the NOTW album. Again, unless he had some sort of condition in which he'd implode otherwise, he could've used timbales at any point since he was aged 2 until the day he dies or loses control of his hand.

The fact there are no pix of Rog using timbales during SHA sessions (for instance) doesn't prove he didn't use them then."

Yes, technically you're right.  But with this kind of stance, we might as well scrap the entire concept of investigative history and conclude that we can't reach reasonable conclusions about any past event without pictorial evidence.

All I know is that the song originally was conceived during the "Smile" era (early 70s).

I'm going for the 1977 date, because of Freddie's voice.

> But with this kind of stance, we might as well scrap the entire concept of investigative history and conclude that we can't reach reasonable conclusions about any past event without pictorial evidence.

Not quite. But we can't reach reasonable conclusions (let alone 'case closed, undebatable, next topic' stances) based on such a limited set of details.

Keep in mind that the band members used tons of things in the studio that they didn't use live or at least that they hadn't incorporated to their live gear. Rog didn't use a gong on stage until late '75, but it didn't stop him from recording one in '73. Brian only played acoustic guitar live from '76 onwards, but he was recording with them since at least '69. John only played guitar live in '82 and '84, yet he'd been recording guitars since '73 (electric since '74). Rog only introduced timpani on stage (IIRC) in late '77, but had recorded with them probably since '73 as well. Fred only played piano on stage since '74 but had done in the studio since '72. Brian only played piano on stage since '79 but had done so in the studio since at least '72.

So, if a record has timbales, it doesn't AT ALL guarantee it categorically, undebatably and 'case-closed-ly' comes from the NOTW era. He could've had a set of timbales since '73, for instance, and only add them to the live kit during 'News' tour, simple as that. It's not a distant possibility as it wouldn't be the first of the last time something like that happened.

There are several details that can be analysed in order to guesstimate a date, but drums/percussion aren't one of them in this case: for the first album sessions, as they recorded downtime, Rog was often stuck with in-studio equipment (including a Ludwig kit and a Hayman one), sometimes he'd use his own kit, and from '73 onwards he also bought several things that he'd only use in the studio, or only at home, etc.

The hi-hat detail is much more precise, as an in-depth study of Roger's style (of which none exists on-line at the moment) could establish a realiable and/or accurate approximation based on that. But as far as kits are concerned and the presence or absence of timbales, they're far from being defining evidence, let alone leaving it as a 'case closed, undebatable, next topic.'

For live situations, Roger's only been documented using timbales during the NOTW era. But for studio things, there's ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to suggest he ONLY used them in '77. Nothing at all. No quote from Rog saying 'I never used them before or since.' No detailed pix from I to Races or from Jazz onwards showing ALL of Rog's items. Nothing to confirm or deny it. Live things can be documented more easily (and you've done a wonderful job with it) but as far as studio set-up is concerned, what we know is close to 1% (at best).

Conclusion: while a live recording having timbales could 99% surely be from the NOTW era, a studio recording with timbales could come from any moment between De Lane Lea demos and ... the present, more or less. While a live recording featuring acoustic guitar almost definitely comes from 1976 onwards, a studio recording with acoustic may come from any era. While a live recording featuring Fred playing Tele almost surely comes from the '84-'86 period, a studio outtake with him on a Tele may come from any moment from DLL up to the last ML/AWT sessions in October 1991. And so on.

Sir GH wrote: Sebastian wrote:
"And BTW, there's nothing to categorically state that Rog used timbales ONLY on the NOTW album. Again, unless he had some sort of condition in which he'd implode otherwise, he could've used timbales at any point since he was aged 2 until the day he dies or loses control of his hand.

The fact there are no pix of Rog using timbales during SHA sessions (for instance) doesn't prove he didn't use them then."

Yes, technically you're right.  But with this kind of stance, we might as well scrap the entire concept of investigative history and conclude that we can't reach reasonable conclusions about any past event without pictorial evidence.
================================

Which is kind of what I've been saying recently. We either take on faith that the likelyhood is that it was recorded in 1971 or 1972 (which is what was believed until recently), or we agree that until further evidence of the origin of the recording comes to light, either by the person who leaked it or by an official statement from someone in the Queen camp, we can not possibly say with 100% certainty what the date is on this track.

Both sides have clearly made their arguments. Individuals each put greater weight on different points in these arguments and as a result, we're going in circles.

For some, the key is the drum sound. For others, it's Freddie's voice and the age of the song (if not the recording itself).

I'd like for someone to examine the history of what we know about this song. I'll offer my perspective first...

I first heard about on the old Trainspotter's site, which I just cut and pasted below. This is an entry more than 10 years old, predating many or ANY fans actually hearing the song. The demo we're arguing over had not been leaked (or if it had, only a select few had a copy and the Trainspotter clearly had not heard it, so he covers what was then rumor and speculation. He was correct on some points and incorrect on others):
***
Silver Salmon
Unreleased (Possibly)
There are many rumours about whether this song exists or not, or even if it ever existed. Supposedly written at the same time as "Mad The Swine", or possibly even earlier, no copies of it have ever surfaced. One rumour says it was a John Deacon song that the rest of the band didn't like, and so it was rejected. This seems unlikely as it is also strongly rumoured to be a bit religious, and Freddie tends to write those. It has even been claimed that this is part of a religious trilogy of songs ("Jesus", "Mad The Swine" and this). Sounds like someone's been sniffing too much vinyl to me. The official line is that it doesn't exist, so it probably does.
***

For a long time, this was all I knew of the song. Then I picked up a copy of the bootleg CD-R "Queen - Gone Fishing..." which has an assortment of fan-taped tracks from Queen conventions. On it lists:
***
Silver Salmon (Short Version)
Silver Salmon (Long Version)
"Early '70s demo, probably written by Freddie. There are two different versions, like Seven Seas Of Rhye."
***

The only accurate information listed here is that the so-called Long Version IS "Silver Salmon." The Short Version is "Feelings," though I didn't know the name at the time. I DID still assume it (SS) was a Freddie song, as that's what everyone seemed to be saying.

A while later, I came across a better, non-fan-made copy of Silver Salmon, seemingly from a more original, clear, source and that's the demo we're all now arguing over. This clean copy started with the last note of "Feelings," leading me to believe they came from the same source. Even there, though, I didn't know who had leaked this clean copy, but I assumed it came from the CD/Tape played at the Queen Con where the "Gone Fishing..." guy made his fan-recording. What did not know, and what is still a question for me, is whether that CD played at the Queen Con was a mix of songs from different sessions of different eras or if both "Feelings" and "Silver Salmon" were recorded on the same tape *by the band* in 1971, 1972 or 1977. 

I learned about this time of Adam Unger's Queen Vault site, which lists the song thusly:

***
Silver Salmon (Demo) 3:09
Written by Tim Staffel
Appears on: Unreleased, Recorded 1970/71?
This track is the most well-known and talked about Queen demo. Rumored to exist for years, but was often said not to exist by Queen Productions. A copy was finally leaked into the bootleg and internet trader market. Track starts with Freddie talking in the studio. A great heavy metal track with great heavy guitar work by Brian and brilliant drumming by Roger. One of the best unreleased demos by far.
***

Also around this time, it began to be published online that Silver Salmon was NOT a Freddie track, but a Tim Staffell, Smile-era track. This seemed to be supported by everyone, but I can not now locate any official statement to that effect. If there was an official statement by someone with authority, it's been lost on the internet. It might well have come from Tim Staffell's own website, but that could be my memory playing tricks on me (his site is now under renovation, so there's no way to check...I looked).

Then, a few weeks ago I became aware of the arguments that this recording of SS was made in 1977. And that brings us to the here and now. I'm curious how other fans grew to learn about this song.

AFAIK, Brian was once interviewed for Jazz web (IIRC) and he was asked about Silver Salmon. He answered something along the lines of 'I think that's a song of Tim's, I don't think Freddie ever sang that.' Once again, Brian's not precisely Dr Memory, so if he was wrong about a Fred-sung version not existing, maybe he was also wrong about it being a Tim song (which is the most powerful argument in favour of it being from the first album sessions). IIRC, Barry Mitchell didn't recall ever playing it.

So, without bringing in the timbales (which, again, prove nothing for this particular situation), we've got many different possibilities, some of which are:

- The song is Tim's and was incorporated into Queen's live and/or studio set after Barry (i.e. during Doug or John), then tried out for the first album.

- The song is Tim's and was for some reason kept until much later (which may or may not be NOTW as the timbales point proves nothing in this particular case).

- The song's not Tim's, Brian's memory failed (again) and it was tried out for the first album.

- The song's not Tim's, Brian's memory failed (again) and it wasfor some reason kept until much later (which may or may not be NOTW as the timbales point proves nothing in this particular case).

There are other variables to keep in mind: is it a home demo, or done in the studio? At which point was it varisped? Was it a matter of the source, or did a collector do it, or was it manipulated in the studio, etc.?

Actually I am almost sure that when Brian was interviewed by the Jazz Web (probably by Sam P), and was asked about Silver Salmon, he didn't even respond with words, he instead gave a "what are you talking about?" face. He didn't even remember about the song at all. This interview dates back to 1997/1998 so I insist in that I am not pretty sure if he was asked about SS, Hangman or Face It Alone. The latter is less probable since it was very recent by then. I think that the question and the response I have described was about SS, indeed.

In those days, SS was a myth among fans. There was not even a clue about existing recordings of it. The first recordings appeared a few years later.

Great topic Gregsynth, it's been really interesting and informative to read peoples' views as to the origin of Silver Salmon. There are plenty of people contributing in this thread who know far more about Queen than I do, both in terms of Queen's recording history and the actual musical 'nuts and bolts' e.g Roger's drum sound etc. 

However it really surprises me the number of people who firmly believe this track is from the NOTW sessions. For me, in terms of its musical and lyrical style SS is much, much more similar to some of the stuff on the first album than NOTW (although I will concede that 'Feelings', or 'Feelings Feelings' whatever people prefer to call it sounds like something that could have been on NOTW, with a 'pared back' feel similar to Sleeping On The Sidewalk).

Robbie, always a pleasure to see new faces contributing here.

To clarify, "Feelings" and "Feeling Feelings" are two seperate tracks and two individual songs, related only by a similar title.

Well, what we should do is to organize everybody into two camps:

"The Early 1970s camp" and the "Late 70s camp."

Then we should have an organized debate (we are just randomly throwing speculations out).

Maybe the song WAS written in 1971 or thereabouts but that production and the power of Fred's voice (slowed down version) I believe is c.1977. The drum sound and the way Rog is playing, all point to that era too...The early quality of Fred's voice is very different, c.1972/73 than to 5 years later, where his voice has a lot more strength and power to it. The tape has sped up in the transfer process for some reason. I've had to use varispeed in the past in film production, so I don't believe they would have applied it intentionally to the track.

rhyeking wrote: Robbie, always a pleasure to see new faces contributing here.

To clarify, "Feelings" and "Feeling Feelings" are two seperate tracks and two individual songs, related only by a similar title.

Thanks, rhyeking. I was a bit vague there: the 'Feelings' track I referred to there was the short, rockin' thing (about 3 mins) that to me sounds like an outtake from NOTW.

Hmm, You may actually be referring to "Feeling Feelings," which is pretty much undisputed as being from the NOTW Sessions.

That one starts out with: "Gotta get rid of this feeling, feeling down..."

Most of the lyrics from "Feelings" (the other track) are unintelligible (on my copy, anyway).

Both are about 2 minutes long.

Yes, Rhyeking- it's the former not the latter I was referring to.