Sandravegan
I couldn't have put it better myself, The Real Wizard. :)
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Heavenite
Hi Guys
Obviously one thing about being alive is that we need to consume things that have been alive. So its a case of plants versus animals if we are to survive. I remember reading about the book The Secret Life of Plants which apparently says that plants having some sort of awareness as well. So it would seem that even vegetarians and vegans have to make a choice about which life forms they will consume. Presumably this is made on the basis of the different level of consciousness of animals compared to plants, But then again it all seems to be just a matter of degree.
Regarding the issue of the respective diets you guys are talking about, I reckon its more a case of a buck each way. There is no doubt as I understand it that excessive animal products can cause problems like cancer and heart disease. But then again its necessary to eat a range of pulses and legumes etc to ensure that all types of essential amino acids are consumed. On the other hand, meat, chicken, fish and eggs each contain all of these. So it would seem to me that vegetarians need to be far more careful in what they eat in order to get proper nutrition. That doesn't mean its impossible of course..
One other point I mentioned earlier is that fish and shellfish also don't have the inflammatory risks that excessive use of red meat and other animal products does. So I guess in the end its a case eating a balanced diet whatever choices you make. And there is clearly no doubt that plant material needs to be a very significant part of that balance.
Obviously one thing about being alive is that we need to consume things that have been alive. So its a case of plants versus animals if we are to survive. I remember reading about the book The Secret Life of Plants which apparently says that plants having some sort of awareness as well. So it would seem that even vegetarians and vegans have to make a choice about which life forms they will consume. Presumably this is made on the basis of the different level of consciousness of animals compared to plants, But then again it all seems to be just a matter of degree.
Regarding the issue of the respective diets you guys are talking about, I reckon its more a case of a buck each way. There is no doubt as I understand it that excessive animal products can cause problems like cancer and heart disease. But then again its necessary to eat a range of pulses and legumes etc to ensure that all types of essential amino acids are consumed. On the other hand, meat, chicken, fish and eggs each contain all of these. So it would seem to me that vegetarians need to be far more careful in what they eat in order to get proper nutrition. That doesn't mean its impossible of course..
One other point I mentioned earlier is that fish and shellfish also don't have the inflammatory risks that excessive use of red meat and other animal products does. So I guess in the end its a case eating a balanced diet whatever choices you make. And there is clearly no doubt that plant material needs to be a very significant part of that balance.
thomasquinn 32989
[QUOTE] [b]The Real Wizard wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]Q NUT wrote:[/b]
All the benefits attributed to a vegan diet in this thread are exaggerated. In fact vegetarians don't live longer than omnivores and in all likelihood is detrimental to most people.[/QUOTE]
There is no shortage of propaganda from the meat and dairy industry to reinforce that view. But there is very little science to support it.
It is now undebatable that a very high percentage of cases of heart disease and cancer come from animal products.
[/QUOTE]
Where are you going to get your B-vitamins as a vegan? You can get most of them from nuts and selected vegetables, but to get the amount your body needs, you'd need to consume something on the order of *two pounds* of nuts a day! Vitamin B12 is almost impossible to get without food supplements - which are made from animal products. You can't do without it, because without B12, your body won't produce red blood cells.
Vitamins A and D are only found in animal products. You can't do without these either.
Then there's calcium - if you can't have milk, that's going to cause trouble. Zinc - you can't do without it, and it's going to be difficult to get enough without animal products. Then there's Coenzyme Q10, which you can only get from red meat or dietary supplements produced from red meat. A deficiency of CeQ10 dramatically increases the chance of heart disease.
I stand by what I posted a long time ago: I have a favorable opinion of vegetarianism, but veganism is unhealthy. If adults choose to become vegans that's their choice (like smoking or eating too much fat), but I am firmly of the opinion that raising children as vegans is child abuse.
[QUOTE] [b]Q NUT wrote:[/b]
All the benefits attributed to a vegan diet in this thread are exaggerated. In fact vegetarians don't live longer than omnivores and in all likelihood is detrimental to most people.[/QUOTE]
There is no shortage of propaganda from the meat and dairy industry to reinforce that view. But there is very little science to support it.
It is now undebatable that a very high percentage of cases of heart disease and cancer come from animal products.
[/QUOTE]
Where are you going to get your B-vitamins as a vegan? You can get most of them from nuts and selected vegetables, but to get the amount your body needs, you'd need to consume something on the order of *two pounds* of nuts a day! Vitamin B12 is almost impossible to get without food supplements - which are made from animal products. You can't do without it, because without B12, your body won't produce red blood cells.
Vitamins A and D are only found in animal products. You can't do without these either.
Then there's calcium - if you can't have milk, that's going to cause trouble. Zinc - you can't do without it, and it's going to be difficult to get enough without animal products. Then there's Coenzyme Q10, which you can only get from red meat or dietary supplements produced from red meat. A deficiency of CeQ10 dramatically increases the chance of heart disease.
I stand by what I posted a long time ago: I have a favorable opinion of vegetarianism, but veganism is unhealthy. If adults choose to become vegans that's their choice (like smoking or eating too much fat), but I am firmly of the opinion that raising children as vegans is child abuse.
Q NUT
Actually the science is on my side. The reason vegetarians seem to fare better than omnivores is because when people become vegetarians they adopt other healthy habits besides giving up meat i.e. exercise, giving up smoking, losing weight. Vegetarians generally live a healthier lifestyle than omnivores which is where the initial benefit comes from.
In fact many studies have shown worse outcomes for vegetarians and not one shows that vegans/vegetarians live longer than omnivores!
Remember also that these studies compare vegetarians to the average unhealthy omnivores not healthy ones!
In fact many studies have shown worse outcomes for vegetarians and not one shows that vegans/vegetarians live longer than omnivores!
Remember also that these studies compare vegetarians to the average unhealthy omnivores not healthy ones!
The Real Wizard
[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]
raising children as vegans is child abuse.[/QUOTE]
It's child abuse to teach your kids that it's possible to live not at the expense of animals?
There are alternatives if you just look for them.
Zinc is found in peanuts, dark chocolate and dried watermelon seeds.
Vitamin A is found in a ton of vegetables.
The most powerful source of vitamin D - the sun.
It can be done.
raising children as vegans is child abuse.[/QUOTE]
It's child abuse to teach your kids that it's possible to live not at the expense of animals?
There are alternatives if you just look for them.
Zinc is found in peanuts, dark chocolate and dried watermelon seeds.
Vitamin A is found in a ton of vegetables.
The most powerful source of vitamin D - the sun.
It can be done.
Q NUT
thomasquinn is right. Vegetarians are more likely to be B-12 deficient than omnivores and studies consistently show this. Meat being the best source. Important amino acids such as carnosine, ALA etc. are only found in any meaningful amount in meat along with omega-3 and CoQ10. Contrary to what vegetarians may say many of these nutrients are very important for heart function!
I sure as hell would not be feeding my child a vegan diet which would put him/her at risk for nutritional deficiencies.
To me a healthy lifestyle is eating fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds, meat, no smoking, regular exercise, keeping a handle on stress, good sleep. I think this is the sensible approach. Fad diets whether it's low carb, low fat, vegan or whatever are not going to be sustained by most people because people eventually end up having problems with them (whether it's health problems or other).
I've tried a strict vegan diet myself about 8 years ago but luckily for me I started doing research and found out that most of the claims of vegetarianism are exaggerated and many times false., for example "protein causes bone loss", "vegetarianism increases lifespan", "humans can't digest meat" are just a few of the false claims.
One more interesting thing. Many researches believe that meat was at least partly responsible for the development of our brain during evolution. So vegetarians have meat to thank that they are able to use their brain to criticize meat :)
I sure as hell would not be feeding my child a vegan diet which would put him/her at risk for nutritional deficiencies.
To me a healthy lifestyle is eating fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds, meat, no smoking, regular exercise, keeping a handle on stress, good sleep. I think this is the sensible approach. Fad diets whether it's low carb, low fat, vegan or whatever are not going to be sustained by most people because people eventually end up having problems with them (whether it's health problems or other).
I've tried a strict vegan diet myself about 8 years ago but luckily for me I started doing research and found out that most of the claims of vegetarianism are exaggerated and many times false., for example "protein causes bone loss", "vegetarianism increases lifespan", "humans can't digest meat" are just a few of the false claims.
One more interesting thing. Many researches believe that meat was at least partly responsible for the development of our brain during evolution. So vegetarians have meat to thank that they are able to use their brain to criticize meat :)
The Real Wizard
[QUOTE] [b]Q NUT wrote:[/b]
Vegetarians are more likely to be B-12 deficient than omnivores and studies consistently show this.[/QUOTE]
The fact that a lot of vegetarians do not balance their diets well does not somehow give credence to the idea that we all must get these nutrients from animals when there are alternatives available. They just require a bit more research and effort.
[QUOTE]Many researches believe that meat was at least partly responsible for the development of our brain during evolution. So vegetarians have meat to thank that they are able to use their brain to criticize meat :)[/QUOTE]
Hee hee !!
But seriously - over time we can evolve away from something just as easily as we evolved into it. Evolution is not static, hence the term "evolve."
Vegetarians are more likely to be B-12 deficient than omnivores and studies consistently show this.[/QUOTE]
The fact that a lot of vegetarians do not balance their diets well does not somehow give credence to the idea that we all must get these nutrients from animals when there are alternatives available. They just require a bit more research and effort.
[QUOTE]Many researches believe that meat was at least partly responsible for the development of our brain during evolution. So vegetarians have meat to thank that they are able to use their brain to criticize meat :)[/QUOTE]
Hee hee !!
But seriously - over time we can evolve away from something just as easily as we evolved into it. Evolution is not static, hence the term "evolve."
Q NUT
Right, so tell me where are you going to get all your amino acids, B vitamins, CoQ10, bio-available zinc, omega-3. All these are not available in any meaningful amount in plant foods and are extremely important for optimal health (mental health included!). So, tell me about these alternatives? Are you going to take a ton of supplements?
GratefulFan
It's less about CoQ10, B12, Zinc, iron, calcium, those little balls that form when you break a thermometer, etc. and more about the idea that veganism and vegetarianism is a personal choice. People who not only want to excuse themselves from the traditional food chain but everybody else along with them on the basis of their own personal beliefs have lost that perspective.
Q NUT
[QUOTE] [b]GratefulFan wrote:[/b]
It's less about CoQ10, B12, Zinc, iron, calcium, those little balls that form when you break a thermometer, etc. and more about the idea that is veganism and vegetarianism is a personal choice. People who not only want to excuse themselves from the traditional food chain but everybody else along with them on the basis of their own personal beliefs have lost that perspective. [/QUOTE]
I think your right. Real Wizard seems to be arguing from an ethical perspective whereas I just wanted to point out that those who argue for vegetarianism based on it being healthier are talking nonsense and it is in fact an unhealthy alternative to a healthy omnivorous diet.
It's less about CoQ10, B12, Zinc, iron, calcium, those little balls that form when you break a thermometer, etc. and more about the idea that is veganism and vegetarianism is a personal choice. People who not only want to excuse themselves from the traditional food chain but everybody else along with them on the basis of their own personal beliefs have lost that perspective. [/QUOTE]
I think your right. Real Wizard seems to be arguing from an ethical perspective whereas I just wanted to point out that those who argue for vegetarianism based on it being healthier are talking nonsense and it is in fact an unhealthy alternative to a healthy omnivorous diet.
GratefulFan
In the ethical argument the science is chosen to fit the already arrived at ethical conclusion, and any science that doesn't fit is ignored. It's about what science you can use to support a belief already formed on a very different plane. Then the ethic is presented as being the inevitable conclusion of the science. It's a neat trick if you're not looking too hard.
john bodega
It's not child abuse to raise a child on a vegan diet.
But it is animal abuse to do the same to a cat. Man, I've met those people. They are TAPPED in the head.
But it is animal abuse to do the same to a cat. Man, I've met those people. They are TAPPED in the head.
Q NUT
[QUOTE] [b]Zebonka12 wrote:[/b]
It's not child abuse to raise a child on a vegan diet.
[/QUOTE]
It can be argued that it is child abuse considering that you are putting your child at risk for nutritional deficiencies with serious consequences like impaired cognitive function and possible lasting damage.
Vitamin B-12 deficiency is a serious problem which is why it is recommended that vegetarians take supplements -
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/1/3.full
The problems of vegetarianism are well documented both anecdotally and researched based if anyone bothers to look.
It's not child abuse to raise a child on a vegan diet.
[/QUOTE]
It can be argued that it is child abuse considering that you are putting your child at risk for nutritional deficiencies with serious consequences like impaired cognitive function and possible lasting damage.
Vitamin B-12 deficiency is a serious problem which is why it is recommended that vegetarians take supplements -
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/1/3.full
The problems of vegetarianism are well documented both anecdotally and researched based if anyone bothers to look.
GratefulFan
If you feed your vegan child a vegan cat are you still kind of obnoxious?
Q NUT
[QUOTE] [b]GratefulFan wrote:[/b]
If you feed your vegan child a vegan cat are you still kind of obnoxious?[/QUOTE]
That would be unethical since you would be probably feeding your vegan child a sick cat (a carnivore) compounding the problem the child already faces from a vegan diet :)
If you feed your vegan child a vegan cat are you still kind of obnoxious?[/QUOTE]
That would be unethical since you would be probably feeding your vegan child a sick cat (a carnivore) compounding the problem the child already faces from a vegan diet :)