GratefulFan
All worthwhile human ethics actually come from a substance called ethicalis obnoxicus which naturally occurs in both tofu and gelatin-free bear-free gummi bears. So I'm sure they're fine.
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Posts in chronological order
Sandravegan
It amuses me to read all you have been saying. You really have got those anti-vegan views well and truly stuck in your mindsets.
With regard to the silly argument that plants have feelings too............that is debateable but even if they do, they don't have blood running through their veins and a beating heart. They are not independant on this earth to walk around and enjoy life. Animals are so like us, most of the animals we abuse have two eyes, and ears like us. They have a nose and a mouth, they have teeth, they have internal organs, just as we do. They feel pain, fear, panic, and also joy, love and contentment, (if we aren't killing them that is).
I will worry about the plants when they start screaming out in pain and trying to run away from me when I want to eat them.
I suggest you all do some proper research into the vegan diet.............just Google it. You will find that all of the outdated ideas you have are wrong. You go on about their not being sufficient vitamins/minerals in nuts and plants.........I think you'll find that's just not true. How come if I am not getting enough of the vitamins/protein/calcium/minerals you are all talking about, I am still very healthy? All blood tests return normal.........why is that? Infact, my doctor himself has said I am very healthy due to my vegan diet.
I just hope you all think more seriously about this and don't be so quick to come to the conclusions that all meat eaters come to when discussing the vegan diet. I did it myself before I was vegan, I think it's a way of putting barriers in the way. We don't want to change even though we know there is a better way to live.
With regard to the silly argument that plants have feelings too............that is debateable but even if they do, they don't have blood running through their veins and a beating heart. They are not independant on this earth to walk around and enjoy life. Animals are so like us, most of the animals we abuse have two eyes, and ears like us. They have a nose and a mouth, they have teeth, they have internal organs, just as we do. They feel pain, fear, panic, and also joy, love and contentment, (if we aren't killing them that is).
I will worry about the plants when they start screaming out in pain and trying to run away from me when I want to eat them.
I suggest you all do some proper research into the vegan diet.............just Google it. You will find that all of the outdated ideas you have are wrong. You go on about their not being sufficient vitamins/minerals in nuts and plants.........I think you'll find that's just not true. How come if I am not getting enough of the vitamins/protein/calcium/minerals you are all talking about, I am still very healthy? All blood tests return normal.........why is that? Infact, my doctor himself has said I am very healthy due to my vegan diet.
I just hope you all think more seriously about this and don't be so quick to come to the conclusions that all meat eaters come to when discussing the vegan diet. I did it myself before I was vegan, I think it's a way of putting barriers in the way. We don't want to change even though we know there is a better way to live.
Heavenite
Hi Sandravegan
I have taken you up on your recommendation to look into the matter a bit further and have checked out the info on Veganism on Wiki > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism.
It gives a largely positive description of veganism and its health benefits over the standard American diet, but it does also descibe the nutritional deficiencies that a vegan may face and the specific need for food combining or use of supplements that is necessary to deal wiith these issues.
These issues are set out below:
"Vitamin B12
Further information: Vitamin B12 deficiency
The Vegan Society and Vegan Outreach recommend that vegans eat foods fortified with B12, such as fortified soy milk or cereal, or take a supplement. B12 is a bacterial product that cannot be found reliably in plant foods, and is needed for the formation and maturation of red blood cells and the synthesis of DNA, and for normal nerve function; a deficiency can lead to a number of health problems, including megaloblastic anemia.[7]
[edit] Protein
Proteins are composed of amino acids, and a common concern with protein acquired from vegetable sources is an adequate intake of the essential amino acids, which cannot be synthesised by the human body. While dairy and egg products provide complete sources for ovo-lacto vegetarians, the only vegetable sources with significant amounts of all eight types of essential amino acids are lupin beans, soy,[50] hempseed, chia seed,[51] amaranth,[52] buckwheat,[53] and quinoa.[54] However, the essential amino acids can also be obtained by eating a variety of complementary plant sources that, in combination, provide all eight essential amino acids (e.g. brown rice and beans, or hummus and whole wheat pita, though protein combining in the same meal is not necessary). A 1994 study found a varied intake of such sources can be adequate.[55]
[edit] Iodine
Further information: Iodine deficiency
Iodine supplementation may be necessary for vegans in countries where salt is not typically iodized, where it is iodized at low levels, or where, as in Britain or Ireland, dairy products are relied upon for iodine delivery because of low levels in the soil.[45] Iodine can be obtained from most vegan multivitamins or from regular consumption of seaweeds, such as kelp.[56]
[edit] Calcium
Pumpkin seed-crusted lentil patties with roasted garlic mashed potatoes and salad.
Vegans are advised to eat three servings per day of a high-calcium food, such as fortified soy milk, almonds, and hazelnuts, and take a calcium supplement as necessary.[46] The EPIC-Oxford study suggested that vegans have an increased risk of bone fractures over meat eaters and vegetarians, likely because of lower dietary calcium intake, but that vegans consuming more than 525 mg/day have a risk of fractures similar to that of other groups.[57]
A 2009 study of bone density found the bone density of vegans was 94 percent that of omnivores, but deemed the difference clinically insignificant.[58] Another study in 2009 by the same researchers examined over 100 vegan post-menopausal women, and found their diet had no adverse effect on bone mineral density (BMD) and no alteration in body composition.[59] Biochemist T. Colin Campbell suggested in The China Study (2005) that osteoporosis is linked to the consumption of animal protein because he claims it causes acidosis in the blood. However, this claim has not been supported by any other clinical research or studies. [60]
[edit] Vitamin D
Vegan Outreach writes that light-skinned people can obtain adequate amounts of vitamin D by spending 10–15 minutes in sunlight each day; dark-skinned people 20 minutes; and the elderly 30 minutes. Otherwise, supplements of between 400 and 1,000 IU are recommended, because most vegan diets contain little or no vitamin D without supplements or fortified foods.[61]
[edit] Iron
The iron status of meat-eaters and vegans appears to be similar, and body absorption processes may adjust to lower intakes over time by enhancing absorption efficiency.[62] Molasses is a high-iron food source and many vegans take it in spoonfuls as an iron supplement.
[edit] Omega-3 fatty acids
To ensure adequate consumption of omega-3 fatty acids, Vegan Outreach advises vegans to consume 0.5 g of alpha-linolenic acid daily by eating, for example, 1/4 teaspoon of flaxseed oil, and to use oils containing low amounts of omega-6 fatty acids, such as olive, canola, avocado, or peanut oil.[63]
[edit] Pregnancy, babies andchildren
Vegan version of a salad popular in Russia, with wakame, root vegetables, avocados, and vegan mayonnaise.
The American Dietetic Association considers well-planned vegan diets "appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy and lactation," but recommends that vegan mothers supplement for iron, vitamin D, and vitamin B12.[46][64] The Vegan Society recommend that vegan mothers breastfeed to enhance their child's immune system and reduce the risk of allergies.[65] Vitamin B12 deficiency in lactating vegetarian mothers has been linked to deficiencies and neurological disorders in their children.[66] Some research suggests that the essential omega-3 fatty acid a-linolenic acid and its derivatives should also be supplemented in pregnant and lactating vegan mothers, since they are very low in most vegan diets, and the metabolically related docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) is essential to the developing visual and central nervous system.[67]
A maternal vegan diet has been associated with low birth weight,[68] and a five times lower likelihood of having twins than those who eat animal products, though the article cited concludes that it is the consumption of dairy products by non-vegans that increases the likelihood of conceiving twins, especially in areas where growth hormone is fed to dairy cattle.[69] Several cases of severe infant or child malnutrition (resulting in spine malformation and fractures) and some infant fatalities have been reported in families in which parents fed their child and themselves a poorly planned vegan diet.[70] Dr. Amy Lanou, nutrition director of the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, and an expert witness for the prosecution in one case, wrote that vegan diets are "not only safe for babies; they're healthier than ones based on animal products." She wrote that "the real problem was that [the child] was not given enough food of any sort."
So Veganism without the use of the relevant supplements and food combining would not seem to be a healthy option. With it, it seems that it may well be.
In any event it does seem, as I think it was Grateful Fan who said, the case for veganism is an ethical one. And ultimately it is not a black and white one and can only ever be a matter of degree because we must eat other things that have lived in order to survive.
From what I can gather, some think that this business about plants having feelings too is rubbish.Yet others have picked up what they think are emotional responses from plants. They do seem to communicate chemically, but I guess that doesn't have to mean they have the equivalent of what we would call emotions of course. Here is a Wiki article that discusses this issue in a bit of detail. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_perception_(paranormal)
The information in the article seems to be inconclusive, although there are definitely many who would regard the matter of plants having "feelings" as being completely ridiculous. So to move away from eating the things that are most like us does seem to make some ethical sense I guess, as we know for sure that animals suffer when they are getting slaughtered.
Although I do remember that some tribes used to thank the spirit of the animal they caught for giving up its life as a food source. So the question I would ask is did they know something we don't or were they simply deluding themselves and helping themselves feel better just after the moment they killed the animal.
I have taken you up on your recommendation to look into the matter a bit further and have checked out the info on Veganism on Wiki > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism.
It gives a largely positive description of veganism and its health benefits over the standard American diet, but it does also descibe the nutritional deficiencies that a vegan may face and the specific need for food combining or use of supplements that is necessary to deal wiith these issues.
These issues are set out below:
"Vitamin B12
Further information: Vitamin B12 deficiency
The Vegan Society and Vegan Outreach recommend that vegans eat foods fortified with B12, such as fortified soy milk or cereal, or take a supplement. B12 is a bacterial product that cannot be found reliably in plant foods, and is needed for the formation and maturation of red blood cells and the synthesis of DNA, and for normal nerve function; a deficiency can lead to a number of health problems, including megaloblastic anemia.[7]
[edit] Protein
Proteins are composed of amino acids, and a common concern with protein acquired from vegetable sources is an adequate intake of the essential amino acids, which cannot be synthesised by the human body. While dairy and egg products provide complete sources for ovo-lacto vegetarians, the only vegetable sources with significant amounts of all eight types of essential amino acids are lupin beans, soy,[50] hempseed, chia seed,[51] amaranth,[52] buckwheat,[53] and quinoa.[54] However, the essential amino acids can also be obtained by eating a variety of complementary plant sources that, in combination, provide all eight essential amino acids (e.g. brown rice and beans, or hummus and whole wheat pita, though protein combining in the same meal is not necessary). A 1994 study found a varied intake of such sources can be adequate.[55]
[edit] Iodine
Further information: Iodine deficiency
Iodine supplementation may be necessary for vegans in countries where salt is not typically iodized, where it is iodized at low levels, or where, as in Britain or Ireland, dairy products are relied upon for iodine delivery because of low levels in the soil.[45] Iodine can be obtained from most vegan multivitamins or from regular consumption of seaweeds, such as kelp.[56]
[edit] Calcium
Pumpkin seed-crusted lentil patties with roasted garlic mashed potatoes and salad.
Vegans are advised to eat three servings per day of a high-calcium food, such as fortified soy milk, almonds, and hazelnuts, and take a calcium supplement as necessary.[46] The EPIC-Oxford study suggested that vegans have an increased risk of bone fractures over meat eaters and vegetarians, likely because of lower dietary calcium intake, but that vegans consuming more than 525 mg/day have a risk of fractures similar to that of other groups.[57]
A 2009 study of bone density found the bone density of vegans was 94 percent that of omnivores, but deemed the difference clinically insignificant.[58] Another study in 2009 by the same researchers examined over 100 vegan post-menopausal women, and found their diet had no adverse effect on bone mineral density (BMD) and no alteration in body composition.[59] Biochemist T. Colin Campbell suggested in The China Study (2005) that osteoporosis is linked to the consumption of animal protein because he claims it causes acidosis in the blood. However, this claim has not been supported by any other clinical research or studies. [60]
[edit] Vitamin D
Vegan Outreach writes that light-skinned people can obtain adequate amounts of vitamin D by spending 10–15 minutes in sunlight each day; dark-skinned people 20 minutes; and the elderly 30 minutes. Otherwise, supplements of between 400 and 1,000 IU are recommended, because most vegan diets contain little or no vitamin D without supplements or fortified foods.[61]
[edit] Iron
The iron status of meat-eaters and vegans appears to be similar, and body absorption processes may adjust to lower intakes over time by enhancing absorption efficiency.[62] Molasses is a high-iron food source and many vegans take it in spoonfuls as an iron supplement.
[edit] Omega-3 fatty acids
To ensure adequate consumption of omega-3 fatty acids, Vegan Outreach advises vegans to consume 0.5 g of alpha-linolenic acid daily by eating, for example, 1/4 teaspoon of flaxseed oil, and to use oils containing low amounts of omega-6 fatty acids, such as olive, canola, avocado, or peanut oil.[63]
[edit] Pregnancy, babies andchildren
Vegan version of a salad popular in Russia, with wakame, root vegetables, avocados, and vegan mayonnaise.
The American Dietetic Association considers well-planned vegan diets "appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy and lactation," but recommends that vegan mothers supplement for iron, vitamin D, and vitamin B12.[46][64] The Vegan Society recommend that vegan mothers breastfeed to enhance their child's immune system and reduce the risk of allergies.[65] Vitamin B12 deficiency in lactating vegetarian mothers has been linked to deficiencies and neurological disorders in their children.[66] Some research suggests that the essential omega-3 fatty acid a-linolenic acid and its derivatives should also be supplemented in pregnant and lactating vegan mothers, since they are very low in most vegan diets, and the metabolically related docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) is essential to the developing visual and central nervous system.[67]
A maternal vegan diet has been associated with low birth weight,[68] and a five times lower likelihood of having twins than those who eat animal products, though the article cited concludes that it is the consumption of dairy products by non-vegans that increases the likelihood of conceiving twins, especially in areas where growth hormone is fed to dairy cattle.[69] Several cases of severe infant or child malnutrition (resulting in spine malformation and fractures) and some infant fatalities have been reported in families in which parents fed their child and themselves a poorly planned vegan diet.[70] Dr. Amy Lanou, nutrition director of the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, and an expert witness for the prosecution in one case, wrote that vegan diets are "not only safe for babies; they're healthier than ones based on animal products." She wrote that "the real problem was that [the child] was not given enough food of any sort."
So Veganism without the use of the relevant supplements and food combining would not seem to be a healthy option. With it, it seems that it may well be.
In any event it does seem, as I think it was Grateful Fan who said, the case for veganism is an ethical one. And ultimately it is not a black and white one and can only ever be a matter of degree because we must eat other things that have lived in order to survive.
From what I can gather, some think that this business about plants having feelings too is rubbish.Yet others have picked up what they think are emotional responses from plants. They do seem to communicate chemically, but I guess that doesn't have to mean they have the equivalent of what we would call emotions of course. Here is a Wiki article that discusses this issue in a bit of detail. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_perception_(paranormal)
The information in the article seems to be inconclusive, although there are definitely many who would regard the matter of plants having "feelings" as being completely ridiculous. So to move away from eating the things that are most like us does seem to make some ethical sense I guess, as we know for sure that animals suffer when they are getting slaughtered.
Although I do remember that some tribes used to thank the spirit of the animal they caught for giving up its life as a food source. So the question I would ask is did they know something we don't or were they simply deluding themselves and helping themselves feel better just after the moment they killed the animal.
Sandravegan
Hi Heavenite,
I really don't think Wiki is the best place to find out about veganism. Try contacting the Vegan Society directly and ask any question you like regarding the health benefits of a vegan diet, they will be able to put your mind at rest.
All I can say is, I have personal experience of the vegan diet.......something the writers on Wiki probably haven't. I know I don't need to take supplements. You mention B12, this is a long and complex topic...........I won't go into detail but B12 or the lack of it has only arisen because of our germ free lifestyle.
Meat eaters too have to have their diets supplemented artificially if you like with iodine. Did you know that the food given to animals is supplemented with iodine to insure that humans get the required amount? That to me is just the same as B12 being supplemented. It is easy to get enough B12, protein and calcium from soya milk. If you compare the nutritional values of these things between cow's milk and soya milk you will see they are both the same.
Propaganda has a lot to do with the information you posted about veganism. The meat and dairy industries are big money making concerns and therefore it is in their interests to put forward these outdated notions.
I will ask you one question.............why am I and other vegans I know, who have been vegan for 20 or 30 years so healthy if we aren't getting adequate nutrition from our diet?
I really don't think Wiki is the best place to find out about veganism. Try contacting the Vegan Society directly and ask any question you like regarding the health benefits of a vegan diet, they will be able to put your mind at rest.
All I can say is, I have personal experience of the vegan diet.......something the writers on Wiki probably haven't. I know I don't need to take supplements. You mention B12, this is a long and complex topic...........I won't go into detail but B12 or the lack of it has only arisen because of our germ free lifestyle.
Meat eaters too have to have their diets supplemented artificially if you like with iodine. Did you know that the food given to animals is supplemented with iodine to insure that humans get the required amount? That to me is just the same as B12 being supplemented. It is easy to get enough B12, protein and calcium from soya milk. If you compare the nutritional values of these things between cow's milk and soya milk you will see they are both the same.
Propaganda has a lot to do with the information you posted about veganism. The meat and dairy industries are big money making concerns and therefore it is in their interests to put forward these outdated notions.
I will ask you one question.............why am I and other vegans I know, who have been vegan for 20 or 30 years so healthy if we aren't getting adequate nutrition from our diet?
Q NUT
Hi Sandravegan,
Vegan Society? Don't you think they will be a bit biased towards a vegan diet?
I do not doubt your personal experience of the vegan diet which at least so far you haven't experienced any problems with. However this is anecdotal which also ignores the countless other people who have experienced problems with a vegan diet.
Vegans may keep repeating that getting B12 is a from their diet is not a problem, however, research says otherwise and the consequences of vitamin B12 deficiency are very serious as I said before - http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/1/3.full
BTW I think you are confusing Meat Eaters with Omnivores. A good Omnivorous diet would consist of a wide range of fruit, vegetables, nuts and seeds as well as meat thereby receiving a wide range of nutrients for optimal health.
Vegan Society? Don't you think they will be a bit biased towards a vegan diet?
I do not doubt your personal experience of the vegan diet which at least so far you haven't experienced any problems with. However this is anecdotal which also ignores the countless other people who have experienced problems with a vegan diet.
Vegans may keep repeating that getting B12 is a from their diet is not a problem, however, research says otherwise and the consequences of vitamin B12 deficiency are very serious as I said before - http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/1/3.full
BTW I think you are confusing Meat Eaters with Omnivores. A good Omnivorous diet would consist of a wide range of fruit, vegetables, nuts and seeds as well as meat thereby receiving a wide range of nutrients for optimal health.
Heavenite
Hi Sandravegan
Here is a link to The Vegan Society regarding the issue of Vitamin B12. > http://www.vegansociety.com/lifestyle/nutrition/b12.aspx
Here is a link to The Vegan Society regarding the issue of Vitamin B12. > http://www.vegansociety.com/lifestyle/nutrition/b12.aspx
Heavenite
The above article is definitely promoting the Vegan lifestyle and seems to be the article from which some of the information presented in the Wiki link is based. For instance, it says:
"In over 60 years of vegan experimentation only B12 fortified foods and B12 supplements have proven themselves as reliable sources of B12, capable of supporting optimal health. It is very important that all vegans ensure they have an adequate intake of B12, from fortified foods or supplements. This will benefit our health and help to attract others to veganism through our example."
It also talks about the risk of elevated homocysteine levels if a person is deficient in Vitamin B12. Surely The Vegan Society wouldn't be putting this stuff up if it was unnecessary. So Sandravegan, the question I would ask you is if you don't take supplements, then do you take foods that have been fortified in some way? Not sure if there is such a thing as a vegan supplier, and if so, whether they ensure that fortification of foods has already occurred.
I certainly do have sympathies to the idea of not killing animals for food. But I've got to say that if I ever did become a vegan, I would definitely be following the advice of The Vegan Society or a similar organisation, which supports veganism, but also faces the issues that veganism seem to face in terms of health. Once those issues are faced and dealt with, and can certainly see the case for a kinder world. Having said that, I reckon it would be a tough ask for any omniverous meatlover like myself. But maybe a child who was brought up like that would see it differently and find it a much easier thing to deal with, since they never got the taste for it. I don't think it would be child abuse, provided the child used supplemented or fortified food that the Vegan Society is recommending.
.
"In over 60 years of vegan experimentation only B12 fortified foods and B12 supplements have proven themselves as reliable sources of B12, capable of supporting optimal health. It is very important that all vegans ensure they have an adequate intake of B12, from fortified foods or supplements. This will benefit our health and help to attract others to veganism through our example."
It also talks about the risk of elevated homocysteine levels if a person is deficient in Vitamin B12. Surely The Vegan Society wouldn't be putting this stuff up if it was unnecessary. So Sandravegan, the question I would ask you is if you don't take supplements, then do you take foods that have been fortified in some way? Not sure if there is such a thing as a vegan supplier, and if so, whether they ensure that fortification of foods has already occurred.
I certainly do have sympathies to the idea of not killing animals for food. But I've got to say that if I ever did become a vegan, I would definitely be following the advice of The Vegan Society or a similar organisation, which supports veganism, but also faces the issues that veganism seem to face in terms of health. Once those issues are faced and dealt with, and can certainly see the case for a kinder world. Having said that, I reckon it would be a tough ask for any omniverous meatlover like myself. But maybe a child who was brought up like that would see it differently and find it a much easier thing to deal with, since they never got the taste for it. I don't think it would be child abuse, provided the child used supplemented or fortified food that the Vegan Society is recommending.
.
john bodega
"I really don't think Wiki is the best place to find out about veganism"
It's a lot better than asking a vegan.
"The meat and dairy industries are big money making concerns and therefore it is in their interests to put forward these outdated notions."
Haha. Because no one's ever made a cent from selling vegan-friendly food? Funny how one industry is all about self interest, and the other 'just wants to save animals'.
I don't trust either side of the discussion as far as I could comfortably spit a single mouthful of the food they offer. All I can do is go on the aggregated advice of certain health professionals I've spoken to and do what my conscience says. Warehouses full of spoiled meat is not my idea of honouring dead animals. That stuff is there, and I'm going to eat it.
I do think there will be a future where eating animal product as we know it will have gone the way (heh) of the dodo. But vegetarians/vegans won't get us there any faster by bullshitting people or by employing bullshit tactics. Don't get me fuckin' started on the garbage that PETA inflicts on people once every few months just to remind people that they exist.
The only real way to affect change is by living it. Bullshit and hyperbole won't help anyone.
It's a lot better than asking a vegan.
"The meat and dairy industries are big money making concerns and therefore it is in their interests to put forward these outdated notions."
Haha. Because no one's ever made a cent from selling vegan-friendly food? Funny how one industry is all about self interest, and the other 'just wants to save animals'.
I don't trust either side of the discussion as far as I could comfortably spit a single mouthful of the food they offer. All I can do is go on the aggregated advice of certain health professionals I've spoken to and do what my conscience says. Warehouses full of spoiled meat is not my idea of honouring dead animals. That stuff is there, and I'm going to eat it.
I do think there will be a future where eating animal product as we know it will have gone the way (heh) of the dodo. But vegetarians/vegans won't get us there any faster by bullshitting people or by employing bullshit tactics. Don't get me fuckin' started on the garbage that PETA inflicts on people once every few months just to remind people that they exist.
The only real way to affect change is by living it. Bullshit and hyperbole won't help anyone.
Sandravegan
Q Nut, if people experience problems with vegan diet it's because they are not eating a proper healthy vegan diet. Where do you all think I do my food shopping? I get it ALL from Tesco.............I eat food just like everybody else, I just don't eat dead flesh or hen's periods or milk from the mammary glands of another species. Cow's milk is meant for baby cows, not humans. Humans are the only species who continue to drink milk beyond infancy.
Heavenite, you do not need to provide me with a link to the Vegan Society, I know all about B12. I have explained the reasons why B12 needs to be supplemented nowdays because in times past there would have been sufficient B12 found in vegetables grown in B12 rich soil. I also gave you the example of the supplementation of Iodine into the meat eaters diet......a fact you chose to ignore. :)
The Vegan Society was founded by Donald Watson in the 1940's. It has been going a very long time. People are not dropping down dead by eating a HEALTHY vegan diet believe you me, infact vegans are healthier than non vegans. This is not anecdotal, this is fact. There are millions of vegans around the world, if vegans were dropping down dead because of their diet I think we would soon know about it. What is anecdotal is the few cases of people getting into difficulties with a vegan diet because they weren't eating a balanced vegan diet.
As I said before, I have been vegan for 7 years and have friends who have been vegan for 20, 30, 40 years or more............why are we so healthy? No one has answered that question yet, I wonder why? :)
Heavenite, you do not need to provide me with a link to the Vegan Society, I know all about B12. I have explained the reasons why B12 needs to be supplemented nowdays because in times past there would have been sufficient B12 found in vegetables grown in B12 rich soil. I also gave you the example of the supplementation of Iodine into the meat eaters diet......a fact you chose to ignore. :)
The Vegan Society was founded by Donald Watson in the 1940's. It has been going a very long time. People are not dropping down dead by eating a HEALTHY vegan diet believe you me, infact vegans are healthier than non vegans. This is not anecdotal, this is fact. There are millions of vegans around the world, if vegans were dropping down dead because of their diet I think we would soon know about it. What is anecdotal is the few cases of people getting into difficulties with a vegan diet because they weren't eating a balanced vegan diet.
As I said before, I have been vegan for 7 years and have friends who have been vegan for 20, 30, 40 years or more............why are we so healthy? No one has answered that question yet, I wonder why? :)
john bodega
"why are we so healthy? No one has answered that question yet, I wonder why?"
Ask the constant smoker/drinker who lives to be 95 the same question. Your convenient 'vegan friends who have been vegan for 30, 40 years!' aren't much more than a strawman in this discussion unless you really get into the nitty-gritty of their medical history, the medical history of their forebears, etc. etc.
PS. People who finish most every post with ':)' suffer from mental issues. You shouldn't drop emoticons in an internet conversation where you wouldn't be smiling in a real one.
Ask the constant smoker/drinker who lives to be 95 the same question. Your convenient 'vegan friends who have been vegan for 30, 40 years!' aren't much more than a strawman in this discussion unless you really get into the nitty-gritty of their medical history, the medical history of their forebears, etc. etc.
PS. People who finish most every post with ':)' suffer from mental issues. You shouldn't drop emoticons in an internet conversation where you wouldn't be smiling in a real one.
john bodega
"People are not dropping down dead by eating a HEALTHY vegan diet believe you me"
I think you need to step away from the health aspect of this discussion entirely because you're not being terribly scientific about it. Not in the slightest. If your marker for health is 'not dropping dead', then pretty much any diet is a good one. I could probably live off licking my wallpaper if I was desperate enough. Would that be advisable? Hell no. Any kind of diet choices have to be made with the individuals medical requirements in mind.
Your argument is a moral one - it's best not to pretend otherwise because it robs you of credibility. Stick with what you're good at.
I think you need to step away from the health aspect of this discussion entirely because you're not being terribly scientific about it. Not in the slightest. If your marker for health is 'not dropping dead', then pretty much any diet is a good one. I could probably live off licking my wallpaper if I was desperate enough. Would that be advisable? Hell no. Any kind of diet choices have to be made with the individuals medical requirements in mind.
Your argument is a moral one - it's best not to pretend otherwise because it robs you of credibility. Stick with what you're good at.
Heavenite
Hi again Sandravegan
Sorry to insult your intelligence by providing the vegan site, but it was just a way of verifying the source of what I was quoting and to verify with you that I went to the right place. I guess it also meant that anyone else reading the thread can also check the information for themselves, whereas they may not otherwise bother.
Regarding the soils these days, clearly soils have been degraded over time and I guess what you are saying about the B12 levels may well be correct. But even if that's so, that's unfortunately the way things are now, and even the vegan authorities are recommending B12 supplementation or fortification for their followers at this present time. And that I think is the responsible path for them to follow, so good on them for doing that.
Maybe science will be able to change production methods in the future so that vegans will stop needing supplementation or fortification and free them up further to use just plants as their only form of nutrition, but that point isn't here quite yet. And as Zebonka says above, I think the day of veganism, or at least vegetarianism, is coming, possibly sooner than we might think because the farming of animals will no longer sustainable for the planet, as the population of the world continues to increase. We shall see I guess.
Regarding your point about iodine, yes I completely agree with you on that. Although it was not a deliberate omission of mine, but simply an oversight. There is no doubt that soils in certain parts of the world are deficient in iodine and therefore it is not just vegans and vegetarians than may need to take iodine supplements. In fact, right here where I live, the soils are indeed deficient in iodine. Although, I have also heard that it matters somewhat less these days than it did in the past because our food is not always sourced locally anymore. Nevertheless I do use iodised salt and also enjoy seaweed in Japanese food like sushi and wakame quite often, as my thryoid function does happen to be a little on the underactive side.
Sorry to insult your intelligence by providing the vegan site, but it was just a way of verifying the source of what I was quoting and to verify with you that I went to the right place. I guess it also meant that anyone else reading the thread can also check the information for themselves, whereas they may not otherwise bother.
Regarding the soils these days, clearly soils have been degraded over time and I guess what you are saying about the B12 levels may well be correct. But even if that's so, that's unfortunately the way things are now, and even the vegan authorities are recommending B12 supplementation or fortification for their followers at this present time. And that I think is the responsible path for them to follow, so good on them for doing that.
Maybe science will be able to change production methods in the future so that vegans will stop needing supplementation or fortification and free them up further to use just plants as their only form of nutrition, but that point isn't here quite yet. And as Zebonka says above, I think the day of veganism, or at least vegetarianism, is coming, possibly sooner than we might think because the farming of animals will no longer sustainable for the planet, as the population of the world continues to increase. We shall see I guess.
Regarding your point about iodine, yes I completely agree with you on that. Although it was not a deliberate omission of mine, but simply an oversight. There is no doubt that soils in certain parts of the world are deficient in iodine and therefore it is not just vegans and vegetarians than may need to take iodine supplements. In fact, right here where I live, the soils are indeed deficient in iodine. Although, I have also heard that it matters somewhat less these days than it did in the past because our food is not always sourced locally anymore. Nevertheless I do use iodised salt and also enjoy seaweed in Japanese food like sushi and wakame quite often, as my thryoid function does happen to be a little on the underactive side.
Heavenite
Hi again Sandravegan
Sorry to insult your intelligence by providing the vegan site, but it was just a way of verifying the source of what I was quoting and to verify with you that I went to the right place. I guess it also meant that anyone else reading the thread can also check the information for themselves, whereas they may not otherwise bother.
Regarding the soils these days, clearly soils have been degraded over time and I guess what you are saying about the B12 levels may well be correct. But even if that's so, that's unfortunately the way things are now, and even the vegan authorities are recommending B12 supplementation or fortification for their followers at this present time. And that I think is the responsible path for them to follow, so good on them for doing that.
Maybe science will be able to change production methods in the future so that vegans will stop needing supplementation or fortification and free them up further to use just plants as their only form of nutrition, but that point isn't here quite yet. And as Zebonka says above, I think the day of veganism, or at least vegetarianism, is coming, possibly sooner than we might think because the farming of animals will no longer sustainable for the planet, as the population of the world continues to increase. We shall see I guess.
Regarding your point about iodine, yes I completely agree with you on that. Although it was not a deliberate omission of mine, but simply an oversight. There is no doubt that soils in certain parts of the world are deficient in iodine and therefore it is not just vegans and vegetarians than may need to take iodine supplements. In fact, right here where I live, the soils are indeed deficient in iodine. Although, I have also heard that it matters somewhat less these days than it did in the past because our food is not always sourced locally anymore. Nevertheless I do use iodised salt and also enjoy seaweed in Japanese food like sushi and wakame quite often, as my thryoid function does happen to be a little on the underactive side.
Sorry to insult your intelligence by providing the vegan site, but it was just a way of verifying the source of what I was quoting and to verify with you that I went to the right place. I guess it also meant that anyone else reading the thread can also check the information for themselves, whereas they may not otherwise bother.
Regarding the soils these days, clearly soils have been degraded over time and I guess what you are saying about the B12 levels may well be correct. But even if that's so, that's unfortunately the way things are now, and even the vegan authorities are recommending B12 supplementation or fortification for their followers at this present time. And that I think is the responsible path for them to follow, so good on them for doing that.
Maybe science will be able to change production methods in the future so that vegans will stop needing supplementation or fortification and free them up further to use just plants as their only form of nutrition, but that point isn't here quite yet. And as Zebonka says above, I think the day of veganism, or at least vegetarianism, is coming, possibly sooner than we might think because the farming of animals will no longer sustainable for the planet, as the population of the world continues to increase. We shall see I guess.
Regarding your point about iodine, yes I completely agree with you on that. Although it was not a deliberate omission of mine, but simply an oversight. There is no doubt that soils in certain parts of the world are deficient in iodine and therefore it is not just vegans and vegetarians than may need to take iodine supplements. In fact, right here where I live, the soils are indeed deficient in iodine. Although, I have also heard that it matters somewhat less these days than it did in the past because our food is not always sourced locally anymore. Nevertheless I do use iodised salt and also enjoy seaweed in Japanese food like sushi and wakame quite often, as my thryoid function does happen to be a little on the underactive side.
Sandravegan
Zebonka12, I really don't feel you need to resort to insults just because you are losing the argument. I put a smiley face at the end of nearly ALL my posts, not because I suffer from a mental illness but because I am a friendly, happy type of girl. :)
Your comparison of a smoker/drinker living to 95, is not a good comparison either. Most heavy smokers/drinkers usually end up with some sort of health problems whereas most vegans do not suffer health problems. My point is, you people are saying the vegan diet is unhealthy, well that is just not true. Medical facts prove otherwise. If someone is eating a balanced HEALTHY vegan diet they are doing the best for their bodies.
I will leave this discussion now because as usual, when non vegans are losing the argument they resort to insults and nastiness. All the very best to everyone on this forum, I remain in contact with Brian May and he will be very interested in your attitudes.
All the best to you too Zebonka12, I'm sure in real life you are a very nice person and we would probably be good friends. :)
Your comparison of a smoker/drinker living to 95, is not a good comparison either. Most heavy smokers/drinkers usually end up with some sort of health problems whereas most vegans do not suffer health problems. My point is, you people are saying the vegan diet is unhealthy, well that is just not true. Medical facts prove otherwise. If someone is eating a balanced HEALTHY vegan diet they are doing the best for their bodies.
I will leave this discussion now because as usual, when non vegans are losing the argument they resort to insults and nastiness. All the very best to everyone on this forum, I remain in contact with Brian May and he will be very interested in your attitudes.
All the best to you too Zebonka12, I'm sure in real life you are a very nice person and we would probably be good friends. :)
Holly2003
Brian's a preachy obsessive too, so you should get on well together :)