"I really don't feel you need to resort to insults just because you are losing the argument"
I didn't insult you - not once - and I'm not losing any argument, because there isn't one.
john bodega
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Posts in chronological order
john bodega
"Most heavy smokers/drinkers usually end up with some sort of health problems whereas most vegans do not suffer health problems."
Another meaningless statement. What does 'most' mean to the vegan who suffers from health problems??
It's rather shallow thinking to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as being 'nasty'. You're not doing much for the cause of veganism by making it seem like a barrier to cognitive function. All I was saying is that you should stick to the real reasoning here, which is a moral reason not to be killing animals and eating them. That's the main strength of your position. You will never win people over by stressing the health angle. If that kind of thing worked, then the tobacco industry would've folded decades ago.
Another meaningless statement. What does 'most' mean to the vegan who suffers from health problems??
It's rather shallow thinking to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as being 'nasty'. You're not doing much for the cause of veganism by making it seem like a barrier to cognitive function. All I was saying is that you should stick to the real reasoning here, which is a moral reason not to be killing animals and eating them. That's the main strength of your position. You will never win people over by stressing the health angle. If that kind of thing worked, then the tobacco industry would've folded decades ago.
Q NUT
Sandravegan,
"if people experience problems with vegan diet it's because they are not eating a proper healthy vegan diet"
This is the common excuse given by followers of extremist diets. No matter evidence to the contrary it's never the diet that is at fault but always that the individual failed to follow the diet correctly.
The fact is that plant foods are very poor, unreliable sources of B12 even if grown in vitamin B12 rich soil. Meat is by far the best source. You also mention iodine again but do realize that an omnivorous diet consists of a wide variety of foods including vegetables? You seem to be thinking that meat eating and eating vegetables are mutually exclusive.
"if people experience problems with vegan diet it's because they are not eating a proper healthy vegan diet"
This is the common excuse given by followers of extremist diets. No matter evidence to the contrary it's never the diet that is at fault but always that the individual failed to follow the diet correctly.
The fact is that plant foods are very poor, unreliable sources of B12 even if grown in vitamin B12 rich soil. Meat is by far the best source. You also mention iodine again but do realize that an omnivorous diet consists of a wide variety of foods including vegetables? You seem to be thinking that meat eating and eating vegetables are mutually exclusive.
Heavenite
Hi Sandravegan
Hopefully we all benefited from hearing some different perspectives. You certainly put veganism on the chart for me. Quite frankly, before this, its not something I ever would have even thought about, yet alone contemplated. Hopefully you also gained some different perspectives, even if it didn't change your opinion.
Hopefully we all benefited from hearing some different perspectives. You certainly put veganism on the chart for me. Quite frankly, before this, its not something I ever would have even thought about, yet alone contemplated. Hopefully you also gained some different perspectives, even if it didn't change your opinion.
thomasquinn 32989
The point remains:
Vegetarianism = healthier than omnivorous diet.
Veganism = less healthy than omnivorous diet, MUCH less healthy than vegetarian diet.
The key is to limit your intake of meat as much as possible. However, other animal products (eggs, milk [and thus, butter, cream, cheese], etc.) are very good for you....in MODERATION.
The main problem with veganism is that it is, by definition, IMMODERATE. It is a very one-sided diet, similar to the kind you often see in America and South Africa, where people eat tremendous amounts of meat and little else.
Vegetarianism = healthier than omnivorous diet.
Veganism = less healthy than omnivorous diet, MUCH less healthy than vegetarian diet.
The key is to limit your intake of meat as much as possible. However, other animal products (eggs, milk [and thus, butter, cream, cheese], etc.) are very good for you....in MODERATION.
The main problem with veganism is that it is, by definition, IMMODERATE. It is a very one-sided diet, similar to the kind you often see in America and South Africa, where people eat tremendous amounts of meat and little else.
Q NUT
[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]
Vegetarianism = healthier than omnivorous diet.
The key is to limit your intake of meat as much as possible.
[/QUOTE]
Have you ever bothered to verify the claims made by vegetarians including those you made above?
Vegetarianism = healthier than omnivorous diet.
The key is to limit your intake of meat as much as possible.
[/QUOTE]
Have you ever bothered to verify the claims made by vegetarians including those you made above?
Heavenite
My understanding is that red meat is good for you provided its not to often. It triggers the inflammatory process that heals us. However too much inflammation itself can cause damage. Including it in a diet is therefore supposed to completely OK from a health perspective provided its not too much and is balanced plenty of vegetables and other sources of protein, especially fish because of its anti=inflammatory effects.
Pingfah
[QUOTE] [b]Sandravegan wrote:[/b]
I will worry about the plants when they start screaming out in pain and trying to run away from me when I want to eat them. [/QUOTE]
You're advocating eating comatose patients now?
Disgusting.
I will worry about the plants when they start screaming out in pain and trying to run away from me when I want to eat them. [/QUOTE]
You're advocating eating comatose patients now?
Disgusting.
Heavenite
Just thought I'd put this link on here, which describes the importance of Vitamin B12 > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/29/health/vitamin-b12-deficiency-can-cause-symptoms-that-mimic-aging.html?_r=0
Apparently our ability to absorb B12 reduces as we get older. It needs a cofactor called intrinsic factor that is released by the parietal cells in our stomachs in order for it to be absorbed. Problem is that these cells diminish as we get older, and by our late forties and fifites, we can start getting a B12 deficiency. Vitamin B12 injections have been prescribed for the elderly for years now. Fortunately, more recently they have found a way to deliver B12 under the tongue (sublingually) using a slightly different form of it called Methylcobalamin. Something I should probably start including in my supplement regime given the big Five O is rapidly approaching. Vitamin Research Products is a fairly reputable place on the net to get this stuff from if anyone is interested.
Apparently our ability to absorb B12 reduces as we get older. It needs a cofactor called intrinsic factor that is released by the parietal cells in our stomachs in order for it to be absorbed. Problem is that these cells diminish as we get older, and by our late forties and fifites, we can start getting a B12 deficiency. Vitamin B12 injections have been prescribed for the elderly for years now. Fortunately, more recently they have found a way to deliver B12 under the tongue (sublingually) using a slightly different form of it called Methylcobalamin. Something I should probably start including in my supplement regime given the big Five O is rapidly approaching. Vitamin Research Products is a fairly reputable place on the net to get this stuff from if anyone is interested.
kdj2hot
[QUOTE] [b]Zebonka12 wrote:[/b]
Yep. In people over the age of 60, veganism is actually very, very lethal. Brian probably has about eight months left.
By the time he's done being a vegan, he'll probably look like THIS:
http://www.frightstudios.com/image/maskscat/fullmasks/zombie_full_fleshbig.jpg
so I'd get the farewell cards together folks. This is a day of mourning.[/QUOTE]
Lol its kinda true in a way. Vegans arent as healthy. They miss a lot of crucial vitamins. A man of his age needs as much nutrients as possible.
Yep. In people over the age of 60, veganism is actually very, very lethal. Brian probably has about eight months left.
By the time he's done being a vegan, he'll probably look like THIS:
http://www.frightstudios.com/image/maskscat/fullmasks/zombie_full_fleshbig.jpg
so I'd get the farewell cards together folks. This is a day of mourning.[/QUOTE]
Lol its kinda true in a way. Vegans arent as healthy. They miss a lot of crucial vitamins. A man of his age needs as much nutrients as possible.
The Real Wizard
[QUOTE] [b]kdj2hot wrote:[/b]
Vegans arent as healthy. They miss a lot of crucial vitamins.
[/QUOTE]
Some do, some don't. Propaganda from the meat and dairy industry wants to make sure you believe they do. The more people that go vegan, the more money they stand to lose. Who do you think lobbies government when they're about to create food/nutrition guides?
2.5% of the US is vegan. And rising. Is anyone trying to reasonably suggest that these people are unhealthier than the 35% of the country that are obese?
Vegans arent as healthy. They miss a lot of crucial vitamins.
[/QUOTE]
Some do, some don't. Propaganda from the meat and dairy industry wants to make sure you believe they do. The more people that go vegan, the more money they stand to lose. Who do you think lobbies government when they're about to create food/nutrition guides?
2.5% of the US is vegan. And rising. Is anyone trying to reasonably suggest that these people are unhealthier than the 35% of the country that are obese?
Heavenite
The literature from The Vegan Society says there only two important nutrients that cannot be obtained from a proper vegan diet, Vitamins D and B12. Vitamin D can be readily acquired using sunlight, so that just leaves B12 as the one thing they cannot replace. The question for them therefore seems to be whether they are willing to take animal based supplements to get it or sacrifice themselves for their principles. I think Sandravegan made it clear which side of the fence she sits on.
Personally I think its not the best thing to sacrifice oneself in the above manner, but as both Sandravegan and The Real Wizard pointed out, there are plenty of omnivores amongst us who are unhealthy. And it seems pretty clear that this is largely because they don't eat anywhere near enough plant material and other unprocessed foods.
I used to be really bad myself in that respect, but I have gradually kept improving as I get older. I take lots of herbal (plant based) supplements these days and try to stay off processed rubbish as much as possible despite the fact that, like most people, I really having developed a taste for it, especially when I was younger of course.
Personally I think its not the best thing to sacrifice oneself in the above manner, but as both Sandravegan and The Real Wizard pointed out, there are plenty of omnivores amongst us who are unhealthy. And it seems pretty clear that this is largely because they don't eat anywhere near enough plant material and other unprocessed foods.
I used to be really bad myself in that respect, but I have gradually kept improving as I get older. I take lots of herbal (plant based) supplements these days and try to stay off processed rubbish as much as possible despite the fact that, like most people, I really having developed a taste for it, especially when I was younger of course.
kdj2hot
[QUOTE] [b]Heavenite wrote:[/b]
The literature from The Vegan Society says there only two important nutrients that cannot be obtained from a proper vegan diet, Vitamins D and B12. Vitamin D can be readily acquired using sunlight, so that just leaves B12 as the one thing they cannot replace. The question for them therefore seems to be whether they are willing to take animal based supplements to get it or sacrifice themselves for their principles. I think Sandravegan made it clear which side of the fence she sits on.
Personally I think its not the best thing to sacrifice oneself in the above manner, but as both Sandravegan and The Real Wizard pointed out, there are plenty of omnivores amongst us who are unhealthy. And it seems pretty clear that this is largely because they don't eat anywhere near enough plant material and other unprocessed foods.
I used to be really bad myself in that respect, but I have gradually kept improving as I get older. I take lots of herbal (plant based) supplements these days and try to stay off processed rubbish as much as possible despite the fact that, like most people, I really having developed a taste for it, especially when I was younger of course. [/QUOTE]
Dont you people read the news. We live in a high tech computer simulation. Thats all the universe is. That explains why its still expanding and whats it expanding over, etc. I just hope no one hits the reset button... What does thus have to do with the subject? Duh, its like who cares about eating animals? Thats what were suppose to.do.to survive. Thats the way this game called life works. Its like things get so easy we go out of our way to find ways to screw ourselves. 25,000 yrs ago you had to worry about not becoming a sabre tooth tigers dinner. It wasnt any of this vegan nonsense. Its all incredibly stupid. Besides the animals are already.dead. IMO youre a monster and causing their deaths to be in vain by not eating them. What youre just gonna let the package of beef spoil? Then you allowed that poor cow to die.for.nothing. shame.on.you
The literature from The Vegan Society says there only two important nutrients that cannot be obtained from a proper vegan diet, Vitamins D and B12. Vitamin D can be readily acquired using sunlight, so that just leaves B12 as the one thing they cannot replace. The question for them therefore seems to be whether they are willing to take animal based supplements to get it or sacrifice themselves for their principles. I think Sandravegan made it clear which side of the fence she sits on.
Personally I think its not the best thing to sacrifice oneself in the above manner, but as both Sandravegan and The Real Wizard pointed out, there are plenty of omnivores amongst us who are unhealthy. And it seems pretty clear that this is largely because they don't eat anywhere near enough plant material and other unprocessed foods.
I used to be really bad myself in that respect, but I have gradually kept improving as I get older. I take lots of herbal (plant based) supplements these days and try to stay off processed rubbish as much as possible despite the fact that, like most people, I really having developed a taste for it, especially when I was younger of course. [/QUOTE]
Dont you people read the news. We live in a high tech computer simulation. Thats all the universe is. That explains why its still expanding and whats it expanding over, etc. I just hope no one hits the reset button... What does thus have to do with the subject? Duh, its like who cares about eating animals? Thats what were suppose to.do.to survive. Thats the way this game called life works. Its like things get so easy we go out of our way to find ways to screw ourselves. 25,000 yrs ago you had to worry about not becoming a sabre tooth tigers dinner. It wasnt any of this vegan nonsense. Its all incredibly stupid. Besides the animals are already.dead. IMO youre a monster and causing their deaths to be in vain by not eating them. What youre just gonna let the package of beef spoil? Then you allowed that poor cow to die.for.nothing. shame.on.you
Heavenite
Hi kdj2hot
Have another read of my comments. I had roast lamb tonight for dinner and am definitely no vegan, or even vegetarian for that matter. That is definitely how life has worked as you say, and there IS no point in feeling guilty about it.
All I was saying was that for those that choose veganism especially, there is no B12 alternative at this stage unless you are willing to eat something which has been artificially produced from yeast like the Vegemite we have here in Australia. Don't think they are crazy about eating that though either.
Have another read of my comments. I had roast lamb tonight for dinner and am definitely no vegan, or even vegetarian for that matter. That is definitely how life has worked as you say, and there IS no point in feeling guilty about it.
All I was saying was that for those that choose veganism especially, there is no B12 alternative at this stage unless you are willing to eat something which has been artificially produced from yeast like the Vegemite we have here in Australia. Don't think they are crazy about eating that though either.
Q NUT
[QUOTE] [b]Heavenite wrote:[/b]
The literature from The Vegan Society says there only two important nutrients that cannot be obtained from a proper vegan diet, Vitamins D and B12. Vitamin D can be readily acquired using sunlight, so that just leaves B12 as the one thing they cannot replace. The question for them therefore seems to be whether they are willing to take animal based supplements to get it or sacrifice themselves for their principles. I think Sandravegan made it clear which side of the fence she sits on.
Personally I think its not the best thing to sacrifice oneself in the above manner, but as both Sandravegan and The Real Wizard pointed out, there are plenty of omnivores amongst us who are unhealthy. And it seems pretty clear that this is largely because they don't eat anywhere near enough plant material and other unprocessed foods.
I used to be really bad myself in that respect, but I have gradually kept improving as I get older. I take lots of herbal (plant based) supplements these days and try to stay off processed rubbish as much as possible despite the fact that, like most people, I really having developed a taste for it, especially when I was younger of course. [/QUOTE]
More vegan propaganda. They ignore many other important nutrients which plant foods cannot supply optimal amounts. BTW The Vegan Society is very poorly researched. While they do have references the majority of them are not scientific research.
Omnivores are typically less health conscious than vegetarians - smoking more, exercising less, eating tons of processed stuff etc. but this is ignored by vegetarians and according to them blame the meat!
The literature from The Vegan Society says there only two important nutrients that cannot be obtained from a proper vegan diet, Vitamins D and B12. Vitamin D can be readily acquired using sunlight, so that just leaves B12 as the one thing they cannot replace. The question for them therefore seems to be whether they are willing to take animal based supplements to get it or sacrifice themselves for their principles. I think Sandravegan made it clear which side of the fence she sits on.
Personally I think its not the best thing to sacrifice oneself in the above manner, but as both Sandravegan and The Real Wizard pointed out, there are plenty of omnivores amongst us who are unhealthy. And it seems pretty clear that this is largely because they don't eat anywhere near enough plant material and other unprocessed foods.
I used to be really bad myself in that respect, but I have gradually kept improving as I get older. I take lots of herbal (plant based) supplements these days and try to stay off processed rubbish as much as possible despite the fact that, like most people, I really having developed a taste for it, especially when I was younger of course. [/QUOTE]
More vegan propaganda. They ignore many other important nutrients which plant foods cannot supply optimal amounts. BTW The Vegan Society is very poorly researched. While they do have references the majority of them are not scientific research.
Omnivores are typically less health conscious than vegetarians - smoking more, exercising less, eating tons of processed stuff etc. but this is ignored by vegetarians and according to them blame the meat!