Queen I vs Led Zep I

I also agree that "Modern Times Rock n Roll" and "Son And Daughter" is a weak spot on the album...I don't dislike them at all, but they pale in comparison to the other songs on the album.

I love your point about how "tracklisting" can make or break an album...how very true.  Someone posted on these forums a while back that if Hot Space hadn't frontloaded all of the dance tracks and just distributed them evenly throughout the album, it may have had a more positive reaction from fans.

oh shit! you're right about Liar. I think I always thought it was on Side 1, possibly because I had the Hollywood Remaster on casette? could it have been on Side 1 there? In any event - Liar alone couldn't save Side 2 in a comparison against LZ's side 2. But Great King Rat with Keep Yourself Alive and My Fairy King, are enough to still eclipse LZ's side 1.

And about Freddie's voice - not saying his voice was bad, but if you compare his voice to Plant's on their debuts... Plant's is sublime in 69-71 and then began to deteriorate around the Houses of The Holy era - Freddie's '73 is still a great rock voice - but it got soooooooooooooooooooooooo much better over time. (I think someone else pointed this out).

I think the one who mentioned that about Hot Space, may have been me. I've definitely mentioned this about Jazz... that album would have been way better had they changed the order.

HaHa...It probably WAS you that said that about Hot Space.  I, on the other hand, think Hot Space's runing order is perfect.  I agree that Jazz's track order is kind of a mess...but I still love that album, too.

Yes, Plant is one of the greatest rock vocalists ever.  You think his voice started deteriorating on the Houses Of The Holy album?  Never caught that...his voice was incredible on Presence especially , I think.

All I have to say is that it's hard to argue with most of your points...mainly because they are purely subjective.  And that's the nature of music and how each individual reacts to it.  At least you gave a thorough and comprehensive reason for why you think LZ 1 is better than Queen 1.

That's what this thread is about.  Jpf wants to call people names who are actually posting what the thread asked for.  He calls me a "dumb-ass" when he never tells us WHY he thinks LZ 1 is better...it's just "blows it away" , "sold many more copies" and is "influential".  Anyone that can read can understand what the OP was asking for(except for Jpf).

We all know LZ 1 is more "inflential" and "sold more copies".  The OP asked which do you think is the better album IN YOUR OPINION while stating clearly that he knows that LZ 1 is looked at by most people as the superior album.

Does Nirvana's "Nevermind" blow away Queen 1...it's sold a lot more copies and helped propel grunge into a mainstream phenomena?

jazzy mercurois wrote:

You people like Jimmy Page, there's nothing I can do about that.
It's like talking about colors with blind people.

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I'm sorry you see the guitar in such a black and white way.  There is a lot of gray area.

It's not just "good" technique and "bad" technique.  It's not like a math question where there is only one right answer.  How boring the guitar would be if everyone tried to play "perfectly" like jazz guitarist X.  Most jazz guitarists sound the same.  I don't care how good their chops are - they are boring to listen to because they bring nothing new to the table.  They have studied modes, scales and chord substitutions.. big deal.  I can go to the big jazz clubs in Toronto and within seconds I can tell which school they went to.  These guys all sound the same.

Yes, I like Dream Theater (about half of their work, anyway), but Petrucci isn't one of my favourite guitarists.  I admire him for what he does, but he is so studied and technically proficient to the point that everything he does sounds so calculated.  Any attempt at being bluesy or playing with feel comes off as contrived.  He plays completely from his head, not from his soul.  He used to.  In the 90s he was dripping with soul, combined with the technique.  But he chose to go in the technique direction and left his soul at the door as far as I'm concerned.  Check out the version of To Live Forever from Tokyo 93 on youtube.  It's one of the best combinations of feel and technique I've ever seen.

If it is indeed all about technique, then Keith Richards and Neil Young should qualify as crap since they are far from being "clean" players.  But they are still valid contributors, because they have created sounds of their own in the vast realm of the electric guitar.  They expanded the horizons of what the guitar can do just like Vai - no greater or less.  Vai has better technique, but that's only one part of the equation.  The fact that there is gray area is the very thing that makes the guitar one of the most versatile musical instruments.

If Page's technique doesn't connect with you and you don't see the mysticism that is Led Zeppelin, then most sane people will respect their differences with you.  But it's not because they are deaf, blind, or have bad taste.  If anything, you're the one who is blind because you're the only one yammering on about how bad you think someone else is, particularly someone who has inspired literally millions of people to pick up the guitar.  I'm one of them.

Jimmy Dean - excellent analysis.

I only think you're too hard on Son And Daughter.  The guitar work is fantastic.  Great main riff, and the harmonies in the second verse are exquisite.  He sped them up to double tempo to make them sound an octave higher, which achieved a new effect that had never been heard before.

And there is the very reason why LZ are considered more influential than Queen.  Page played with a bow and Bonham played 20 minute drum solos, while Queen pioneered lighting rigs and focused on connecting with people throughout a 2 hour show.  And in the studio, the two bands used the technology in very different ways.  Page achieved a giant drum sound on When The Levee Breaks, while Queen layered the three voices and guitars in ways that most people can't truly appreciate.  Most people see style before substance.

As for the respective guitarists - Page was very in your face, whereas Brian May's genius is in much more subtle ways.  Brian's dixieland jazz band at the end of Good Company is the single most innovative piece of guitar playing from the 70s, next to Eruption.  But very few people are aware of the song (most see it as filler between Love Of My Life and BoRhap), never mind even understanding exactly what Brian created and how monumental an achievement it was.

The very idea of influence is embodied in the ability to pass along your craft, inspiring someone to better it in some way.  But when someone is too much of a genius, they are lost on most.  And this is why most people think Jimmy Page is one of the greatest guitarists ever, and Brian (if they even know his name) is just the guy who played in Queen.... but not as fast as Page or Blackmore, so I guess he's not as good, right?

i think people call Good Company filler because vocally it's Weak compared to the songs around it.  prophet song, love of my life and Bo Rhap are among the best vocals from any rock singer IMO.   Good Company is a brilliant tune though, especially musically.

brENsKi wrote: mike hunt wrote:

 Funny, Brenski say's Freddie stole a whole verse in my fairy king, which is a brilliant song,  but doesn't mention all the songs Zep borrowed or Stole?....on their Debute or even later albums they stole shit.  Why doesn't that count Mr. Brenski?....nothing wrong with sticking up for your favorite band, and it doesn't make you a stepford.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mike
my comment wasn't stating that Ledzep were original and never stole anything...of couse they did!!!  i never disputed zep's ability to blur the boundaries bridging "inspiration" and "plagiarism"....

my reference comment re: "My Fairy King" was in response to another's comment haling it as some great bastion of originality and unique....not a chance!!!

For those that don't know, what i referred to was Freddie having "lifted" "liberated" and "stolen" a  passage from "the pied pier of hamlyn" by Robert Browning...without this "inspiration" the whole structure of MFK would be nothing...that grand opening to the song paints such a wonderfully imaginative picture - shame it wasn't FM's own original imagination:

MY FAIRY KING
In the land where horses born with eagle wings
And honey bees have lost their stings
There's singing forever to you
Lions den with fallow deer

THE PIED PIPER
The sparrows were brighter than peacocks here,
And their dogs outran our fallow deer,
And honey-bees had lost their stings,
And horses were born with eagles' wings:

and finally, "sticking up for your band"? no nothing wrong with that at all...but it does become stepfordism (new word)...when no cognisant argument is presented other than "queen are best because they are"...

neither yourself Mike or PrimeJive have done this...so this is not directed at you......in fact you and I see quite similarly Mike...on queen matters....excepting of course your stance on "Opera" and mine on "II"

I just wanted to make a point about Zep and all the borrowing they did.  Of course Queen did it like everyone, but not as much as Zep.   No question we agree on a lot of stuff, Queen2 being both of our favorites,   with Opera a very close second for me.  alway's one of my favorite poster's around here for sure.

Mike

I'm not 100% sure about this...but did Queen ever pay out any royalities for "use of someone else's original material" ?
i doubt it, cos i think they were quite business savvy...Brian clearly use someone else's song with "See What A Fool.." and Freddie lifted a whole passage from "the Pied Piper".....
not sure about copyright law, but i would think that as Robert Browning had been dead a long time then Freddie was free to do this

Zep tended to do similar things....coincidence? or just very good business brains?

jazzy mercurois wrote: Of course everything wasn't top notch

BUT STILL FUCKING BETTER THAN LED ZEPPELIN, THAT'S FOR SURE!

"LED ZEPPELIN I IS BETTER BECAUSE IT'S MORE INFLUENTIAL"
That's as far as your musical knowledge goes: checking record sales.
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LZ was far more influential than Queen. 

Much bigger band in the U.S.

Much bigger band worldwide.

Much bigger influence on other bands, guitarists, drummers, and singers.

Had far more radio airplay.

You like Queen and hate LZ.  No big deal.  Doesn't change the fact that
LZ will always dominate over Queen.

Just something you have to deal with.

PrimeJiveUSA wrote: Jazzy...that's all Jpf can communicate about why LZ 1 "blows away" Queen.  It all has to do with what OTHER PEOPLE think.  Let's see..."it's influential"..."it's sold much more"...it contains many more songs that are considered "classic".

He seems to be too illiterate to explain how the actual MUSIC on the album "blows away" Queen 1. 

While he lets LZ 1 blow on him some more...we'll wait for his in-depth analysis.
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LZ 1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Queen 1

Deal with it.

BTW, you're not worth in-depth analysis.

It must be frustarting for jpf knowing that everyone he meets or talks to is smarter than him, even his neighbours in the trailer park.

LOL...no many times you tell him what the OP is asking for, even though the OP says to disregard "influence" and "sales" and give us YOUR personal opinion, he can only revert back to "influence" and "sales" to back up his claim that "LZ 1 blows awayQueen 1".

Holly, I'm not wasting anymore time on this caveman.

qrok...Thanks for starting a great, interesting thread.  It was fun until that uncommunicative neanderthal walked into it with knuckles dragging on the ground.

jpf wrote:

Much bigger band worldwide.

Had far more radio airplay.

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That is definitely not true.  Zeppelin were bigger than Queen in the US (with only 1980 as an exception, as The Game was massively successful), but Queen are second to the Beatles in the UK and most of Europe.  Queen have been on the album charts longer than The Beatles in the UK, so that one is pretty undebatable.

Zeppelin are not heard on the radio in Europe nearly as much as Queen are.  Ask the Europeans here and they will tell you.

In South America and Japan, Queen were the second coming after The Beatles... Zeppelin only did two tours of Japan, and were really not that big.  Even Cheap Trick were bigger than Zeppelin in Japan.  Although, out of interest, the Japanese 71 shows are highly revered by Zeppelin fans as some of the best shows they ever played.