Queen I vs Led Zep I

mike hunt wrote:

 Funny, Brenski say's Freddie stole a whole verse in my fairy king, which is a brilliant song,  but doesn't mention all the songs Zep borrowed or Stole?....on their Debute or even later albums they stole shit.  Why doesn't that count Mr. Brenski?....nothing wrong with sticking up for your favorite band, and it doesn't make you a stepford.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mike
my comment wasn't stating that Ledzep were original and never stole anything...of couse they did!!!  i never disputed zep's ability to blur the boundaries bridging "inspiration" and "plagiarism"....

my reference comment re: "My Fairy King" was in response to another's comment haling it as some great bastion of originality and unique....not a chance!!!

For those that don't know, what i referred to was Freddie having "lifted" "liberated" and "stolen" a  passage from "the pied pier of hamlyn" by Robert Browning...without this "inspiration" the whole structure of MFK would be nothing...that grand opening to the song paints such a wonderfully imaginative picture - shame it wasn't FM's own original imagination:

MY FAIRY KING
In the land where horses born with eagle wings
And honey bees have lost their stings
There's singing forever to you
Lions den with fallow deer

THE PIED PIPER
The sparrows were brighter than peacocks here,
And their dogs outran our fallow deer,
And honey-bees had lost their stings,
And horses were born with eagles' wings:

and finally, "sticking up for your band"? no nothing wrong with that at all...but it does become stepfordism (new word)...when no cognisant argument is presented other than "queen are best because they are"...

neither yourself Mike or PrimeJive have done this...so this is not directed at you......in fact you and I see quite similarly Mike...on queen matters....excepting of course your stance on "Opera" and mine on "II"

Btw..

To our neighbourhood friend talking about musical execution (with the suggestion that Page was always sloppy) .. watch and learn ..

http://vodpod.com/watch/3412144-page-plant-bsu-pavilion-boise-idaho-10-9

Around 14:30 commences one of the greatest guitar solos I've ever heard... top 10 in about 100,000.  Page plays this solo in Thank You with such precision and feeling that words cannot describe.

It's really funny because you talk about Page's precission, while you seem to like Dream Theater.

But, on the other hand, it's probably one of the best things I've heard of Jimmy.
Not because of the solo itself. To me, it was just another guitar solo.
But he didn't make God cry this time, good for him.

WHICH IS VERY, VERY FAR FROM PERFECT.

But, what the hell? What am I doing here?

You people like Jimmy Page, there's nothing I can do about that.
It's like talking about colors with blind people.

Jazzy...well, I absolutely LOVE Jimmy Page!

Where I have a problem is when so many Queen fans say that on Queen 1 they "haven't found their *sound* yet" but Zeppelin already had on LZ1.  I don't ,personally, think they had found their true greatness on LZ 1, either.

Sure it's a heralded album by the rock community in general...but I find it a generally dull album.  I think that LZ 2 was quite an improvement with songs like "Thank You" and the thundering "Whole Lotta Love".  On LZ 3 they really expanded their horizons...but it wasn't until LZ 4 that they found their "sweet spot" in my opinion.  From that point on they were rock gods(bar none).

I would take the first 3 Queen albums ANYDAY over the first 3 Zep albums...after that I dunno...it depends on my mood.  They are my top 2 favorite bands for a reason!

I guess I just don't like primitive, childlike comments like "LZ 1 BLOWS AWAY Queen 1" when the only thing that the person(jpf) can say to back up that claim is the talk about "influence" and "record sales".  If you like LZ 1 better fine!  I like some Zeppelin albums better than certain Queen albums as well(but it's definitely NOT LZ1).

I just find comments like jpf's, to be incendiary and not constructive.  Especially when he's posting on a Queen website.

PrimeJiveUSA wrote: Jpf...why don't you try "understanding what you read" next time.

I mistakenly put jpf to the "grow the F*** up" quote and corrected it in my next post.

Yeah, you're right the whole LZ 1"blows away" Queen 1 is "your opinion"...happily I don't share it.

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I replied in the order of the posts.

You fucked up.  It's your problem.

PrimeJiveUSA wrote: Jpf...LOL...once again with the "influential" and "biggest seller" thing.

If you don't care what people think, why is something "better" to you because it's supposed to be more influential?

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LZ1 was far more influential and a far bigger seller than Queen 1.

Sorry if that truth makes you wet your pants.

"Better" is an opinion.

"Influential" can be seen in record sales and through other bands calling LZ and LZ1 an influential band and lp.

PrimeJiveUSA wrote: Sorry Brenksi...the "blow" comment was aimed at JPF...evidently he likes the way LZ 1 does that.
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Dumbass, try getting your quotes correct for once.

PrimeJiveUSA wrote: Jazzy...well, I absolutely LOVE Jimmy Page!

Where I have a problem is when so many Queen fans say that on Queen 1 they "haven't found their *sound* yet" but Zeppelin already had on LZ1.  I don't ,personally, think they had found their true greatness on LZ 1, either.

Sure it's a heralded album by the rock community in general...but I find it a generally dull album.  I think that LZ 2 was quite an improvement with songs like "Thank You" and the thundering "Whole Lotta Love".  On LZ 3 they really expanded their horizons...but it wasn't until LZ 4 that they found their "sweet spot" in my opinion.  From that point on they were rock gods(bar none).

I would take the first 3 Queen albums ANYDAY over the first 3 Zep albums...after that I dunno...it depends on my mood.  They are my top 2 favorite bands for a reason!

I guess I just don't like primitive, childlike comments like "LZ 1 BLOWS AWAY Queen 1" when the only thing that the person(jpf) can say to back up that claim is the talk about "influence" and "record sales".  If you like LZ 1 better fine!  I like some Zeppelin albums better than certain Queen albums as well(but it's definitely NOT LZ1).

I just find comments like jpf's, to be incendiary and not constructive.  Especially when he's posting on a Queen website.
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LZ 1 blows away Queen 1.

Deal with it.

Your last sentence is quite amusing. 

Everything Queen did wasn't top notch.

Of course everything wasn't top notch

BUT STILL FUCKING BETTER THAN LED ZEPPELIN, THAT'S FOR SURE!

"LED ZEPPELIN I IS BETTER BECAUSE IT'S MORE INFLUENTIAL"
That's as far as your musical knowledge goes: checking record sales.

Jimmy Page is the greatest guitar player in the universe

Jazzy...that's all Jpf can communicate about why LZ 1 "blows away" Queen.  It all has to do with what OTHER PEOPLE think.  Let's see..."it's influential"..."it's sold much more"...it contains many more songs that are considered "classic".

He seems to be too illiterate to explain how the actual MUSIC on the album "blows away" Queen 1. 

While he lets LZ 1 blow on him some more...we'll wait for his in-depth analysis.

Led Zeppelin I may well be better that Queen I though I personally prefer who Queen I works as an album. However this discussion comparing the music between these two albums. Both albums are different and you can't really come close or have the right to say which one is definetly better. What I do find is that groups such as The Beatles and Led Zeppelin have already been explained and have been explained too many times. Queen have been half explained (with their later stuff being explained the most) but their early stuff has not been explained and a lot of their other stuff has not been explained. This makes Queen not as praised as Led Zep or the Beatles and all of Zep and Beatles albums have been described as essential and diffenitive whereas Queen really have only one studio album that is considered a classic. Groups such as Rush and Dire Straits need some serious explaining.

In my opinion Rush is a surperior band to Led Zeppelin in their complicated, intelligent music and they create songs that ncapsulates many different moods and they convey it very well (a bit like Queen). Led Zeppelin could never have created a song like Xanadu and probably won't have the ability and imagination to do it. Neil Peart is a far surperior drummer than Bonham in my opinion and Peart is more of a authentic percussionist than Bonham. Rush are also far more dynamic and veristile than Led Zeppelin and they probably have an advantage in technical ability. Like Queen, Rush had a period of transition in the 1980s with synth dominated tracks and less guitars though their songs still conveyed moods very well. So in my opinion, Rush who are one the most adventurous and skillful bands ever have to be explained as Led Zeppelin and the Beatles have now become too explained.

Dire Straits is another band that has not been explained. Like Queen and to an extent Rush they conveyed many different moods and styles. With a great guitarist they produced rock songs such as Sultans of Swing and Money for Nothing, great tunes such as Walk of Life/Twisting by the Pool and rock epics such as Telegraph Rock..... Mark Knopfler had more variety with his guitar skills than Page and he produced some fantastic sounds. He made his guitar sing just like Brian May.

So there many other great bands other Led Zeppelin, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones (and some of Queen's most popular stuff) that are yet to be explained and praised critically.

Here' my take on an in depth analysis of both albums side to
side - which I don't believe are comparable.

LZ 1 - SIDE 1

Side 1 begins with an absolute roar with Good Times, Bad Times.... although the track is probably one of LZ's most juvenile and simple songs, it's an absolutely appropriate launch to a legendary career (not that this was their intention).

Then we get a little more serious with a traditional number arranged by the band entitled "Babe, I'm Gonna Leave You". Beautiful acoustic arrangement, not overly complex, but enough to get the listener hooked to what may be a solid album. Robert Plant's vocal performance on this number is dead-on. Here, is showing the listener what he is truly capable of. Unfortunately, as someone else pointed out earlier in the thread, his voice only suffered through the years - but, in my opinion, this may be one of his greatest takes.

A straightforward blues number, You Shook Me - the band rehearsed this one a few too many times - sounds a little flat - not exactly enhancing the album. That's ok, because what comes next definitely makes up for it.

Dazed & Confused - not really going to explain this one.... it was a little different for it's time in 1969... yes it may have been a rip-off of a Jake Holmes tune (who? well he tried to sue Jimmy more than 40- years after the fact, lol), but this is where the Zep began to earn a following. A song to trip to ;-) The innovative side of Page is shown here - his use of a bow on a guitar, may sound like an obvious thing to try (a guitar vs, an oversized violin vs. a mini-cello), but not in 1969. I'm not saying it sounds great, or that I ever liked the effect - but he wasn't afraid to give it a shot. Those guitar noises are what makes that landmark track unique.

Overall a very strong Side 1 - only 1 turd in the bunch - although this is 25% of the tracks and about 30% of the length - the other 3 tracks more than make up for it.

Queen 1 - SIDE 1

Keep Yourself Alive - who the fuck is Queen - Amazing start to a career. (And they Kept themselves Alive for nearly 20 years more!) Absolutely comparable to LZ's opener - and in my opinion a little more ambitious and a lot more exciting.

Then we have Doing Alright - which strangely enough is listened to in comparison with Babe I'm Gonna Leave You - actually follow the same type of pattern - direct influence of LZ on Queen (or Smile at the time). We get the soft start, the chorus and then the really loud bridge that comes out of nowhere - it gets very soft and then the the heavy bit following: I've got to hiiiiideaway! that comes out of nowhere - only taken back to reality - "Yesterday, my life was in ruins..." This is VERY Led Zeppelesque. Unfortunately Freddie's vocal performance is nowhere near what Robert Plant Plant had to offer on LZ's debut.

So track 2 was a little of a letdown - then comes Great King Rat. What the fuck is this and why do I like it so much?! This is Queen attempting to take a stab on what would eventually become the Queen sound.... only to be enhcanced by the following track. Freddie takes us on a journey on this one and Brian works in hand-in-hand delivering a wonderful guitar track. Tempo changes! Preaching! Don't believe all you read in the bible! (so what if we get a little religious? he's still telling us to stop listening to our parents - so that's cool, right?) This is incomparable to anything on LZ - and is most certainly a highlight track.

My Fairy King - over the top, beautiful, challenging chord changes, a solid falsetto performance - harmonies - operatic vocals. Odd lyrics but still a sold song.

Then we get Queen's stab at an epic - Liar - again a fairly Zeppelinesque track, but with a twist - it has a third revival - zeppelin would do them in twos, so Queen did them in threes - basically what I mean by this was that there were three bits that increased in intensity just before it slowed down and picked itself back up again - the rollercoaster of sound. May be the strongest track in the bunch. This was a song with *balls*. May not have been as much as a landmark as Dazed was - but you knew that Queen was attempting the same thing, as this was their signature live song in their early shows.

Overall, we get a stronger Side 1 from Queen than we did 4 years back with Led Zeppelin. No question. Queen blew it out of the water on Side 1. However, Queen also had more time to write material before they were given the green light to release their first album, whereas the Zep kind of winged it and got lucky. If Led Zep were shot down like Queen were, then LZ 1 *may* have been a hybrid of LZ 1 and LZ 2... Imagine if Heartbreaker, Whole Lotta Love and Thank You ended up on this album! Kind of shows you how much more confidence LZ had in their early years than Queen. That's what I meant when I said in an earlier post that they knew what they wanted to achieve - they had their sound before they walked in the studio... Queen needed more time.

On two Side 2...

Led Zeppelin - SIDE 2

First track, Your Time Is Gonna Come. Beautiful, haunting - even has an organ (nod to John Paul Jones). Not much to say about this one other than it's a solid track. Not bad at all. Sounds like a single to me. Even has a chorus! Not really a Led Zep thing.

On to Black Mountain Side - only kept to 2 minutes - good enough to keep the listener's attention - shows off Jimmy Page's talents - but not much more than this. Basically a song to skip...

Communication Breakdown... if you thought the album was beginning to falter, buddy you were fuckin' wrong! Who do they think they were releasing something of this magnitude on the Richter scale?! Perfect pop metal - Best track on the album...

the LZ don't let it up - I Can't Quit You Baby. A blues cover (Willie Dixon), but another fantastic Robert Plant performance. A really good John Bonham drum track... and the drum roll leads into....

How Many More Times.... what a way to finish off an album. They kept this for the closer, in the case you had any more doubts... You cannot fault this track for anything other than the length which was originally depicted as 3:30 on the original album sleeve (a 5 minute discrepancy for those that have never heard the song). It includes part of Beck's Bolero which Jimmy wrote for Jeff Beck.... right before we get to more Jimmy Page's bow guitar playing and an interlude by Robert Plant... and then it suddenly changes - Oh Rosie! Oh Girl Oh Rosie!... the marching drummer... these guys don't give a shit what you think... "They call me the hunter!".... a break and then write back to rhetoric...."HOW MANY MORE TIMES!?" This is a fucking fantastic finish to very good album. (The expletives are necessary to review this song - give it a spin.)

Side 2 of this album, in my opinion, had a stronger ending than Side 1 - the track listing was well balanced in that they didn't keep all their A-1 material on Side A. They instead sorted it out so that the album keeps together throughout the listen. This is important as it is what helps define a great album from a good one. A good track listing order is essential to its replay value. And this album benefitted greatly from just that.

Queen - Side 2

The Night Comes Down - unfortunately this track is stale - was never performed live, with good reason - it doesn't go anywhere. Your Time Is Gonna Come is easily better and more interesting. Brian May couldn't save this one.

Modern Times - a straightforward attempt at Communication Breakdown. Not much more than this. It didn't even make Queen Rocks. Not commenting further.

Son & Daughter - Queen's attempt at the blues - I preferred the BBC version with the solo - maybe this would have enhanced it. Other than this, there's really nothing special about this.

 continued....

....continued

Jesus - obviously they were trying to keep with the religious hints - but this was straightforward. This is an obscurity - and if
the rest of Side 2 didn't already alienate the listener, then this must have.The music, however, wasn't so bad - could have been a great instrumental.

Seven Seas Of Rhye - although it comes off as a throwaway unfinished track - it at least gave you a hint of what was to come.

Overall, a fairly weak Side 2. And now we have some definition as to why indeed Zeppelin's first is hailed as a rock classic and Queen's first is thrown away into obscurity. As a cohesive listen - Queen ends on Side 1... there is very little reason to flip the side. Instead, one can argue that Side 1 is equal if not better than *either* of LZ's album sides - this would be a valid point. However, an EP does not an album make and that is an entirely different discussion.

The question is, which *album* is better? Led Zeppelin has a batter track listing order, is interesting throughout - delivers a stronger vocal performance by Robert Plant, and vocals are almost always at the forefront of a standard rock album. Brian May's performance, was stronger and if not a lot more interesting than Jimmy's - even WITH Jimmy's use of the bow. Jimmy's was repetitive, when electric, a little more interesting when acoustic - you can at least see has talent when he switched (Babe I'm Gonna Leave You) rather than showing off with obscure techniques, again, such as with the bow. On a Side by side Basis - Queen's Side 1 eclipsed Zeppelin's Side 1 but Side 2 is where the album is silenced by the mighty Zep... and not even Jazzy Mercurois should be album to argue his way out of that point.

So there you have it - it may have taken me some time to lay it down on this post - but I enjoy writing every now and again - not something I get to do that often when at work.

WOW!

Thanks Jimmy Dean for that post.  You made a lot of salient points.  Just one correction..."Liar" is the first track on Side 2 of Queen.

My biggest bone of contention with what you wrote is about Freddie's voice.  A lot of people feel that his performance on this album is rather weak or undeveloped...I disagree.  I LOOOVE his voice on this album, such clarity and power!  Passages that spring to mind is the middle of "Liar" and the "mama gonna be your slave" and his performance on "Jesus" is indeed, Bible-worthy.