obama confirms osama bin laden is dead

I'm starting to get the sense that they've lost the plot in the aftermath a little.  Even allowing for the fog of war, the story seems to be evolving an awful lot.  There are too many people talking to the media and not enough consistency in the message.  Right decision on the pictures I think, but a bit of a confusing meander to get there.

I cannot say I feel sorry for Osama Bin Laden - he was never sorry for any of his victims. However, I feel sorry for the USA who said goodbye to the rule of law once and for all. It is good that we did not have a Nobel peace  prize winner as a US president by the end of WW2 and the Nazis were given a trial with legal assistance and everything a democratic country provides for. It was a role model and it brought peace to Europe - the winning and the losing countries.

These days they disregard the sovereignity of a befriended country, cross the borders like killers in the night, shoot down the mass murderer in front of his family and ditch the body into the sea while the crowds are cheering in the streets of Washington. The end does not always justify the means - when the only super power in the world so obviously spits on international laws and treaties we are all in a very dangerous situation. This killing did nothing to bring peace - it has all the seeds of conspiracy theories and matyrdom from the start.

^ this isn't the first time that the USA and the CIA have tried a stunt like this,they've been doing it since God was a boy [Iran in 80 with the hostages for instance] but this seems to be the first time they've actually succeeded without getting their arses in a mess diplomatically and making the whole scenario worse..for now.

What I say is : fuck sovereignty.  It is severely overrated.  One can argue a lot about whether it was right to kill bin Laden in the way that he was killed, and fair enough, but if you carry the assumption that this was a worthwhile mission to embark upon, the fact is that doing it the legal way would've given Pakistan plenty of time to call the bin Laden residence and say "uh, you might want to be out of town for the first week of May".

And don't tell me it would've gone any differently!  The thing that's pissing me off the most about this affair is the preponderance of different versions of the engagement.  If there really is a Navy Seal helmet-cam version of events, then there is only one story - we're just not being let in on it.  For instance, bin Laden's daughter piped up with a different version of his death - a video would either disprove or corroborate that version of things.  I'm not too bothered one way or the other about what happened, but I can just see the decades of (retarded) conspiracy theories that will abound.  I've already had my fill of 9/11 fallacies and nonsense.

If sovereignty had been disregarded, how come there is no protest by any nation to the UN ? 

I think in this case there is really no choice in the way it had been executed.  Agreed it is not the end of terrorism, but it is one big down although there will be many more to go.

Zebonka - who is to say that it was a "worthwhile mission"? Do you really want a government - any government - to have the right to decide whom they want to kill and to go into any given country and kill a person with no legal process? It is obvious that Osama Bin Laden is the one person who does not incite any loyalty because he did call for the Fatwa and is certainly responsible for the death of many people. But a democratic country should not make a difference between people who deserve to be treated according to the law and people who do not deserve to be treated by the law, it's a matter of priciple. If they kill people with no trial and legal defense, they are not any better than the terrorist who thinks he can kill people to make a political statement. Who will draw the line in which case a troublesome legal process is necessary and in which case the government can just kill the suspect?

If we assume that Pakistan agreed to the "mission" behind the curtain and that there was no other way to arrest Bin Laden but to kill him - and even if there had been a truthful account about the shooting - that Bin Laden was not armed but had to be killed for some other reason - it was still totally unnecessary to dump the body into the sea. It was even politically very stupid to get rid of the body in such a way for many reasons - not only to allow his followers to deny that Bin Laden is actually dead. It will also turn him into a martyr and victim of the "infidels".

There are higher moral imperatives than law and order, and if one is willing to see things as they must appear through American eyes, the killing of bin Laden may be just such a situation.

There are higher moral imperatives than law and order, and if one is willing to see things as they must appear through American eyes, the killing of bin Laden may be just such a situation.
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I've said it before in this thread and i'll say it now, Hypocrites the lot of them, By this logic Bush and Obama need to be shot dead, for sending people to war and killing innocents. Your argument is one of the most, poorly thought out, stupid things i have ever read. it boils down to "it's right because america say it's okay."

This has fixed nothing, it has changed nothing, 10 years of war for nothing, it really makes me laugh, killing the thousands just to take revenge on the one. It's the kind of stupidity that is equal to nuking a city of people because of a rat infestation.

It's rather amusing that some think OBL would've gotten a fair trial. Nuremburg was mentioned: at Nuremburg the Allies executed Germans who had committed similar and comparable crimes to those the Allies themselves had carried out (bombing of civilian cities, for example). The Allies killed between 35 - 150,000 civilians at Dresden. Colonel Curtis LeMay said that if the Allies had lost the Second World War, they would have been prosecuted as war criminals. At the Tokyo War Crimes, an Indian judge found the Japanese not guilty of war crimes, saying the Allies had committed the same types of crimes for the same reasons (and he was right!) Bin Laden was a dead man the minute he attacked the USA. He would've been found guilty at a trail and executed. He chose that path and his death was the inevitable result, whether at the hands of a US commando or by firing squad at Guantanamo. Either way would've been fine with me.

It's almost better that he's lived this long. Over the last months he's had to witness the march of democracy in the middle East by peaceful means, particularly in Egypt.
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For some people, living is a worse punishment than dying. Think of it this way, in his head he died a hero, and has gone to heaven. He died thinking that.
But for him to live and see democracy, to witness walls being shattered around him could probably have hurt him more.
People have to realise, to some death isnt a punishment, but the greatest reward.

"Zebonka - who is to say that it was a "worthwhile mission"?"

I made allowances for this question when I said "if you carry the assumption" that it was a worthwhile mission.  Do you want to know what I think?  I don't really think it was worth bothering.  They saw an opportunity and went for it - yay for them! - but if it really is just the lopping off of a figurehead, then I personally am not convinced of the importance of the mission.

"Do you really want a government - any government - to have the right to decide whom they want to kill and to go into any given country and kill a person with no legal process?"

While I agree with what you're getting at, the real truth is that our rights are on very shaky ground as it is.  We're in a spot in history where we think of rights as this magical thing that we're all born with.  Funny old thing is that a huge number of people in the world don't have those rights - in practice, we only have them if they are granted to us by someone higher up.  George Carlin puts it very well in a video somewhere on Youtube; I'm sure a search for 'george carlin rights' would turn something up.

If I don't seem shocked at the US going around and conducting missions like this, it's because they already broke international law when they went into Iraq.  Everyone said "no" and they did it anyway.  I am no longer surprised.  My Sphincter of Surprise has been thoroughly stretched to the point that nothing amazes me anymore.

Many interesting points have been brought. All I can say is:

* If it's OK to celebrate OBL's death because he was responsible for thousands of deaths, then would it be OK if Bush got murdered and I threw a party or would that be frowned upon or legally condemned? Double standards much?

* Is it OK if from now on every kid can tell their teacher 'I did my homework but my dog ate it' and everybody's got to take their word for it? After all, that's what Obama's telling the world...

Barbara and Sebastian thanks - I couldn't write it better myself .

I believe permission for the US to use Pakistani airspace was still in place from when the US brought relief to Pakistan after the 2010 floods. Pakistan, despite their public denial, appears to be a (quasi) partner in the fight against Al-Qaeda. The bluster they’ve shown is likely a front to keep the extremists in their country satisfied. I think the low(ish) level US accusations against the Pakistani leadership are part of that ruse. There is no way the US would be able to carry out missions in Pakistan without instigating an international rebuke unless we had their support.
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As for the killing of bin Laden – he declared war on the West and died in battle. Yes, it was a sneak attack. Yes, he was outnumbered. But it was a military operation and he failed to muster up. He’s dead because of his own actions. We killed him because we made the better move in a war game he started.

To bin Laden’s burial at sea – more people would have been put at risk if his body had been taken somewhere and given an earth burial. And that burial site would have become a rallying point for his minions. Whether leagues or feet under, many still consider him a victim of ‘infidels’ and a martyr. Better that this was done quickly – if ten years can be called, “quickly” – without giving them a place to worship him.

Thousands of bin laden’s victims were incinerated or crushed until no trace of them could be identified. The families of those victims have no official burial site to visit. In a long war where most of the threats against the West have been unseen until carried out, bin Laden’s death is a tangible finality, and for that reason, for the fall of that symbol of hate, Americans responded with joy. Others can point to what is perceived as the moral collapse of America since 9/11, but I am very proud of my country for continuing the fight – though admittedly, not always for the way in which that fight continued. I am also extremely proud of the Navy Seals who carried out and won this mission without losing one member of their team.

Those who admonish us for cheering this man’s death, don’t see – or refuse to see – that even through cheers, our hearts are heavy and we long for those who were so viciously ripped from us by the epitome of evil that has finally been destroyed. An entire generation grew up with the fear and pain inflicted by that man. War sucks. Plain and simple. But bin Laden declared that war and died because of it. We cheered his demise and, for that as well as for all reasons stated above, no apology will or should ever be made.