Seven Seas of Rhye songwriting

brENsKi wrote:

waunakonor wrote:
brENsKi,
"Bitter" is defined, in the context I was using it in, as "characterized by intense antagonism and hostility." .

i don't hate brian. i don't know him. all i know is what he does...and until 1991 he did alright by me (she makes me and dear friends aside)...then post 91, freddie died and brian's quality control died with him, and at the same time it was replaced by a "McCartney syndrome"...a need to rewrite history to show equal importance.
fact is, before 91, brian was probably musically freddie's equal in most respects - but post 91 his constant need to big up himself has dimished what respect i had for him
he's behaving like a resentful bitter old man...and it's a pity, because if he hung up the bile, he'd probably still have loads worthwhile to say...musically

Ok, thanks for clearing things up. You almost always seem to have reasonable points to make about the way Queen have handled their music over the past few decades, and I generally like the kind of stuff you post, so I've got nothing against you, you just seemed to be acting a bit odd. Again, thanks for making yourself a bit clearer.

I don't really see what reason Brian has to be bitter about who gets more songwriting credit. He wrote many of Queen's best songs (even if they weren't the most successful).

Either way, Freddie definitely wrote the lyrics for the middle eight which Brian seems to have claimed - the 'sister, I live and lie for you' part was reportedly written with Kash in mind.

I think bitter is entirely the wrong word for Brian. Bitterness has never seemed the issue to me. He's perhaps the most rigid and ego driven of the lot which telegraphs a certain unpleasant intensity at times, but the other side of that coin is a revealing thoughtfulness and chatty introspection that I think benefits us as fans rather uniquely in the rock world. Sometimes I don't think people stop to realize often enough that carrying Freddie's lionized memory in death for public consumption is a duty that has it's significant burdens. For the most part I think he's done it with class and grace.

Fone Bone wrote:
I can deal with "I single-handedly wrote TSMGO"

That one's tricky.. If I remember correctly, it's generally accepted that Roger & John came up with the main keyboard bit, and Brian at least wrote the lyrics. Since they seemed to go with the person who wrote the lyrics being the credited songwriter, there could be some validity to him saying that he was the writer of TSMGO.

GratefulFan wrote:
I think bitter is entirely the wrong word for Brian. Bitterness has never seemed the issue to me. He's perhaps the most rigid and ego driven of the lot which telegraphs a certain unpleasant intensity at times, but the other side of that coin is a revealing thoughtfulness and chatty introspection that I think benefits us as fans rather uniquely in the rock world. Sometimes I don't think people stop to realize often enough that carrying Freddie's lionized memory in death for public consumption is a duty that has it's significant burdens. For the most part I think he's done it with class and grace.

What else would he do? An educated man, so of course he would act with as much grace and class as possible. Also, he is very soft spoken, he has a face that "appears" sympathetic and kind and evokes trust. Bitter? Not sure about that however, I do feel he has some internal issues with his lack of professional success since Freddies death. He will never have the adoration Freddie had. Of course my take is from vids and what I read. To me, there's far more covert goin on there than any of us may ever know. Roger just is what he is, I think less complex. I agree with brENsKi that Brian is talented and could have done more, he could very well be his own worst enemy.

tomchristie22 wrote:
Freddie definitely wrote the lyrics for the middle eight which Brian seems to have claimed - the 'sister, I live and lie for you' part was reportedly written with Kash in mind.

But there are two middle eights - this, and the guitar solo, which is also a completely different chord progression.

Holly2003 wrote:
It's certainly possible. Brian doesn't strike me as the type of person who would do that though. He's not Paul McCartney ...

Really? You don't think the man who, after more than 20 years of refusing to comment on the issue, claimed* that Queen played Sun City in 1984 to make a statement against (N.B.)apartheid, by playing in the recently constructed 'city of vice'**, a dodgy mega-casino in one of the Homelands, would shy away from revising the songwriting history of his band?


* From Brian's Soap Box, Thu 20 Jan 05:

"When we were taken to task by the Musicians Union for breaking their embargo on playing in South Africa, I personally went to their meeting and spoke in defence of our decision to go to Sun City, carefully explaining our reasons. At the end of my speech the whole place applauded, and the then president said that he totally understood our point of view, and respected that our motives were good, but they would still like us to pay a fine, because we had broken a ‘Union Law’ ! The compromise we came to was that the money would go direct to the Kutlwanong school for the deaf in Bophutswana, a school for poor children which we already supported by way of the entire proceeds from a “Greatest Hits” album we put out specially for South Africa.

The main contents of my speech, were that Boputhatswana was the only ONLY place in South Africa at the time where it was possible to play to a non-segregated audience (I wonder if you or your readers realize this – we had turned down lucrative offers to play in Johannesburg and Cape Town ) – and that we felt we were able to strike a bigger blow against Apartheid by going out there and speaking our minds than by staying away."


** Sun City was a gambling resort constructed by a hotel magnate (Sol Kerzner), and opened in december of 1979. It was located in a so-called Bantustan, or "black homeland", a supposedly 'independent country' called Bophuthatswana that consisted of a number of scattered enclaves, which just happened to be the unusable and impoverished parts of the north of South Africa. Sun City was 'interracial', i.e. blacks and 'coloreds' [everyone who wasn't considered white or black] could get in...if they could afford it, which less than 1% of non-whites actually could. It was the target of Artists Against Apartheid the very next year (1985).

Dane wrote:
So as part of a new documentary providing some new insights I think Brian did a good job explaining how these things occasionally happened. I don't see him complaining, just explaining.

Bravo.

When I saw that part of the documentary, my first immediate thought was - "not surprising." And it carried the implication that this happened plenty more times over the band's career, and probably to every band member. Freddie rearranged Radio Ga Ga, but it's still credited to Roger Taylor.

I highly doubt Brian was somehow trying to get the last word in edgewise while a dead man cannot defend himself. They argued in the studio from day one, and Brian's comment was an insight into the songwriting process. No more, no less. If Freddie were here to speak for himself, I'm sure he'd point out a Brian song where he had some input. One should walk away with the impression that this kind of thing regularly happened. The first instance just happened to be a Freddie song.

if Brian is the fair and objective person you think he is consider this:

all his "claims" post 1991 have been about the significant contribution/songwriting (or both) on his part to songs either credited solely as written by one band member, or where something is credited to "queen" he's now claiming the lionshare

now, your suggestion only works if the arrangement is two way - credit taken and given, and that'd be all well and good if he was open and honest enough to say "freddie wrote this bit of 'save me'" or "john worte this bit of 'it's late'" or "roger wrote the bridge of tie your mother down" ***

...he doesn't does he? wonder why? 'cause maybe he's so egocentric and has a Freddie Inferiority Complex that manifests itself by a constant need to underline his own importance to the point of one day "there's have been no success if it wasn't for me"

***hypotheical - for example purposes only

thomasquinn 32989 wrote:

Holly2003 wrote:
It's certainly possible. Brian doesn't strike me as the type of person who would do that though. He's not Paul McCartney ...

Really? You don't think the man who, after more than 20 years of refusing to comment on the issue, claimed* that Queen played Sun City in 1984 to make a statement against (N.B.)apartheid, by playing in the recently constructed 'city of vice'**, a dodgy mega-casino in one of the Homelands, would shy away from revising the songwriting history of his band?
* From Brian's Soap Box, Thu 20 Jan 05:
"When we were taken to task by the Musicians Union for breaking their embargo on playing in South Africa, I personally went to their meeting and spoke in defence of our decision to go to Sun City, carefully explaining our reasons. At the end of my speech the whole place applauded, and the then president said that he totally understood our point of view, and respected that our motives were good, but they would still like us to pay a fine, because we had broken a ‘Union Law’ ! The compromise we came to was that the money would go direct to the Kutlwanong school for the deaf in Bophutswana, a school for poor children which we already supported by way of the entire proceeds from a “Greatest Hits” album we put out specially for South Africa.
The main contents of my speech, were that Boputhatswana was the only ONLY place in South Africa at the time where it was possible to play to a non-segregated audience (I wonder if you or your readers realize this – we had turned down lucrative offers to play in Johannesburg and Cape Town ) – and that we felt we were able to strike a bigger blow against Apartheid by going out there and speaking our minds than by staying away."
** Sun City was a gambling resort constructed by a hotel magnate (Sol Kerzner), and opened in december of 1979. It was located in a so-called Bantustan, or "black homeland", a supposedly 'independent country' called Bophuthatswana that consisted of a number of scattered enclaves, which just happened to be the unusable and impoverished parts of the north of South Africa. Sun City was 'interracial', i.e. blacks and 'coloreds' [everyone who wasn't considered white or black] could get in...if they could afford it, which less than 1% of non-whites actually could. It was the target of Artists Against Apartheid the very next year (1985).

Your interpretation of what Brian said, and his actual quote, don't match up. I'm certain Queen went to South Africa for two reasons, to make money and to broaden their fanbase after they had lost the US market. The point Brian seems to be making is that they were determined to play in SA but, given a choice of a number of venues, they chose one where they could play to a non-segregated audience. Probably that helped them sleep a little better on a mattress filled with £20 notes. However, as weak as Brian's argument is, he is only speaking about their choice of venues within SA, and isn't claiming they went to SA solely as some kind of huge anti-apartheid statement. Nevertheless, he seems to me to be painting a fairly rosy picture of Queen's actions, whereas Fred and to a lesser extent Roger, have openly said they did it for the money. But they were 4 individuals: Brian might have been more politically aware and maybe it was him who pushed for the desegregated venue. From that perspective, it's not unusual that's the argument he would lean towards to defend the band. Fred, on the other hand, might've just told the Musicians Union to fuck off while blowing his nose on a £50 note. But I don't see really what this has to do with the topic we're discussing unless you're trying to prove a pattern of rewriting history. You might add "Paul Rodgers was Fred's fav singer" to that list but I'd like to see a lot more evidence than that to prove to me that Brian is at heart a dishonest and immoral person.

ps I always wonder why people get so worked up about Sun City while ignoring Queen played in Argentina, a country run by a fascist junta with a hideous human rights record. What if Queen had played China? Would that have been as bad as playing SA? China executes more people than the USA, after all. Maybe we're more sensitive to racial considerations than political? Considering some of these points does muddy the water a bit for those who only see things in simple binary terms of good and bad.

The Real Wizard wrote:

tomchristie22 wrote:
Freddie definitely wrote the lyrics for the middle eight which Brian seems to have claimed - the 'sister, I live and lie for you' part was reportedly written with Kash in mind.

But there are two middle eights - this, and the guitar solo, which is also a completely different chord progression.

Good point! If Brian was talking about the guitar solo then it makes perfect sense.

I always assumed he was talking about the solo...the first middle eight has to be Freddie

Get off Brians back! I think he is just telling the truth here. It was not unusual that members contributed on each others songs. They had this agreement from the start that the one who brought an idea to the table would also get the credits. I think this was why he used Seven Seas of Rhye as an example of this. It would be stupid of Brian to lie about these things as there were several witnesses.
Often in a band the bassplayer will have input on the basslines, the guitarist on solos/riffs/arrangement and the drummer on the beats. In Queen though Freddie and Brian tended to get involved in the actual songwriting as well. Pherhaps Freddie was the one who got most involved in Rogers and Johns material.

but you avoid the key question...

why hasnt he been open and honest enough to admit to the songs that "he wrote" that others contributed writing/ideas to?

mr modest eh?

I've often suspected 'Jesus' and 'Mad the Swine' could have strong input from Brian.