Seven Seas of Rhye songwriting

The Real Wizard wrote:Anyone can assemble a bunch of quotes to support an argument. But to make sweeping statements about someone as a person based on a few quotes says more about those people than it does about him.

Exactly, which is why assuming people who don't bow to Brian and have a stepford attitude towards him or what he does/did are automatically trying to demonise him, says more about the person making the assumption than it does about the person pointing out Brian's moaning.

Your inverting language tactic isn't working. It's no more than an attempt to stifle debate, to make it appear as if your stance is equally legitimate to others' when it isn't.

You are attempting to paint everyone with a binary brush, that one must either pick Brian May apart or worship him. This is a dichotomy that exists only in your mind. There is a middle ground of neutrality.

This has nothing to do with bowing to Brian. Making assumptions or passing judgement based on things he has said in the past is a conscious choice you are choosing to make. On the other hand, simply listening to new information he has to offer is not a choice or a stance. It's like calling abstinence a sex position. It's not a position. It's a lack of position.

If you don't want to take new insights into Queen's history by Brian at face value, that's your choice. But don't confuse "Brian fabricates stories" with "you choose to assume by default that Brian fabricates stories."

People do not need to somehow justify why they listen open-mindedly when others talk. This is not somehow inversely equal to your lack of belief and endless scrutiny. The world is not a black and white place where everything is a duality and one of two positions must be chosen and constantly justified. Try to find the gray.

The Real Wizard wrote:
Your inverting language tactic isn't working.

It's neither inverting language nor is a tactic.

The Real Wizard wrote:It's no more than an attempt to stifle debate

It's not to stifle debate, but to make you face your own arguments.

The Real Wizard wrote:to make it appear as if your stance is equally legitimate to others' when it isn't.

Actually, it is. I'm no more than you, but I'm no less than you either. Same amongst any two people.

The Real Wizard wrote:You are attempting to paint everyone with a binary brush, that one must either pick Brian May apart or worship him.

No, and that's exactly my point: not worshipping him is NOT the same as having an agenda to demonise him. Not demonising him, likewise, is not the same as worshipping him.

The Real Wizard wrote:This is a dichotomy that exists only in your mind.

So now you think you can read my mind? If so, then you're the one with the arrogance problem.

The Real Wizard wrote:There is a middle ground of neutrality.

Exactly: not worshipping him is NOT the same as having an agenda to demonise him. Not demonising him, likewise, is not the same as worshipping him. Claiming he's been whiney is not the same as demonising him, either.

The Real Wizard wrote:Making assumptions or passing judgement based on things he has said in the past is a conscious choice you are choosing to make.

Likewise, making assumptions or passing judgement on me based on things I've written on an on-line forum is a conscious choice you are choosing to make.

The Real Wizard wrote:If you don't want to take new insights into Queen's history by Brian at face value, that's your choice. But don't confuse "Brian fabricates stories" with "you choose to assume by default that Brian fabricates stories."

If you disagree with my view of Brian as a person who whines a lot about not being given enough credit, that's your choice (and your opinion is as valid as mine, not more, not less). But don't confuse 'Brian whines a lot about not being given enough credit' with 'Brian fabricates stories to be given more credit'. I clearly stated that Brian contributing to SSOR (and other songs credited to Freddie) is entirely possible and likely, which has nothing to do with my perception of Brian as whiney. Those two statements are not mutually exclusive.

The Real Wizard wrote:People do not need to somehow justify why they listen open-mindedly when others talk.

Exactly. You could try listening/reading with an open mind and realising that calling Brian 'whiney' is not the same as demonising him; that calling Brian's memory 'less than perfect' is not the same as doubting 100% of what he says.

The Real Wizard wrote:The world is not a black and white place where everything is a duality and one of two positions must be chosen and constantly justified. Try to find the gray.

The world is not a greyscale either. There are millions of colours, and just because you (and I) can't see the FIR or the UV, it doesn't mean they don't exist.

My brain just exploded..

Great birds shot GratefulFan.

And The thread seems to be full of bird poop.. too by either side.

The only member of Queen always committed to politic statements is Roger. So im sure they didn't stood publicly as band against apartheid in that time

Queen made 3 mistakes in their career: Trident, Hot Space and Sun City. But we should not be here pointing mistakes, because whinny, revisionist and all, Brian May as musician and person contributing in Queen made us Fans, and made us enjoy this... and we often went too far from fair criticism to witch hunt.

and you know what, let the old mate rest in his well deserved money once for all.

@Ozz:

The thing is, many people have trouble separating Brian May - the musician from Brian May - the person. I absolutely love Brian May the musician, but I get the increasing impression that I want as little to do as possible with Brian May the person.

I think that if you really respect Queen, that also means accepting and naming the many flaws that were involved in its history. As usual, a certain poster attempts to take my Sun City-remarks out of context to 'prove' that I'm some kind of propagandist, but that is not how I see it. Queen were, whether you like it or not, a phenomenon that made its mark on the whole world for at least two decades (the '70s and '80s). That means the history of this band is too important to be left to obvious partisans, like the band's members. This also involves being critical of them sometimes, and I'm afraid I just can't come to any other conclusion than saying that Brian is making so many contradictory statements these last few years, that any remark he makes on Queen's history requires additional sources to be believed. That is not a witch hunt - it is responsible hermeneutic inquiry.

thomasquinn 32989 wrote:That is not a witch hunt - it is responsible hermeneutic inquiry.

Exactly. Brian's a human being, like any of us. Like any of us, he's got many 'good', 'bad' and 'ambiguous' features, and they can and do co-exist. He's an extraordinary musician, but that doesn't mean he can't be and isn't whiney about the alleged lack of credit given to him. Being whiney, likewise, doesn't make him any less excellent as a composer, guitarist, singer, producer, etc.

It's a useless discussion that brings no benefit .
Every fan decodes the message according to his own motivations and prejudices.

When we whine publicly about him, we just bitter ourselves about things that we cannot change.

For example, Im pretty sure that John Deacon exiled himself from Queen because he only had support from Freddie to his musical input in the band, so without him Queen is just Brian & Rogers garage band (like Hetfield / Ulrich) where he wouldn't exist as an active member , but why should i think too much about that if that will make me see in a bitter way every soapbox message from Brian...

Its useless...

Ozz wrote:It's a useless discussion that brings no benefit .

In YOUR opinion. But in other people's opinion (including mine), there may be some good things coming out of it. Simple solution: those who like it can keep reading, you can simply use your time on something else.

Ozz wrote:When we whine publicly about him, we just bitter ourselves about things that we cannot change.

Not necessarily. Saying he's whiney is not whining (sometime it is, indeed). That doesn't make anybody bitter. This is a discussion about a topic we're interested in. Those who aren't can leave whenever they want.

Ozz wrote:why should i think too much about that if that will make me see in a bitter way every soapbox message from Brian...

Those things aren't necessarily co-related.

Ozz wrote:Its useless...

Then leave.

Instead of suggesting me to leave, maybe you should follow your same advice since you don't like what you read in my opinion. right?

But....

Since it's an open discussion about a topic that is interesting for all of us, those were my two cents.

Sometimes we use too much time in talking about Queen members personal attitudes towards their music releases (which is our focus of interest) but when we do, we end being like a tabloid.

And don't take things personally. in fact i usually agree with 99% of your posts. Really.

With all the upcoming releases i would expect more discussion about the possibilities than the awkward traits of an old human being which is also someone who we admire

I'm not taking it personally. I just think this forum (and most others for that matter) allows many different discussions, out of which any of us is free to visit and participate on the ones we find interesting.

What I disagree with is going to a topic you don't like (or where you don't like the way it's been discussed) to tell people not to discuss it, just because you think it's a waste of time.

agreed. you don't like it, then you can say so and then don't discuss it. but don't try and tell others what they can discuss
fact is - since freddie died, brian has increased his contribution to queen songwriting (effectively rewriting the history of the band) while at the same time giving no credit whatsoever for any other band member contributing to writing any of his songs....
almost as if he's making himself out to be a lone genius who wrote all his stuff alone, and went round helping the others shape their songs into somehting worthwile

Doesn't explain why he's been unable to write a million-selling hit for over twenty years.

no freddie = no million selling hit

whatever talent that the rest of the band had...freddie was the one who had equal amount of talent and charisma

and it's the freddie factor that was missing from everythign brian did post 1991....no vocals, no quality control, no incredible keyboard, no quirkiness, no melodies that only freddie could cunjure....

want an example? just watched that xfactor tonight...and that guy who did "whole lotta love" - brilliant impersonation...but he's still not robert plant

so brian can stick whoever the fuck he likes in front of the mic stand...but it ain't freddie, so it doesn't work...his best option is to bite the bullet, and go solo

Remember how Long Away failed dismally as a single? And most Queen fans would agree that it's one of Queen's great songs. It's just that they don't make much money as Queen without Freddie.