Atheism

I imagine that biased documentaries and conspiracy theories are most likely to mislead those who cannot trust "the system" or official sources, or even friends and family who love them, yet they have no trouble trusting the word of a documentary film maker or someone promoting conspiracy theories. It is ironic that they are so willing to put full trust and belief in those who tell them they should not trust or believe anyone.

Many educated people have trouble with their mind, or their mood, and it is nothing to be ashamed of. They cannot blame themselves because they are not at fault for having this problem. Look at Brian May. He realized he needed professional help in order to go on living. And he is glad he got that help that has allowed him to fight his depression. It was not his fault that he was seeing the world as a dark unhappy place. It was a medical condition.

[QUOTE] [b]Donna13 wrote:[/b]
One's own negative experiences growing up are sad to hear about, but this does not mean that the problems experienced by individuals are universal. Everyone has different experiences, and different reactions to experiences.[/QUOTE]

This, in a nutshell, is why I eventually found it difficult to continue in this discussion. That thinking - taking individual experiences and using them to make sweeping, general statements about faith and religion - is foreign to me. It's a self focus and lack of curiousity and reflective constraint that I find unpleasant and thoroughly unengaging. In the lives of individuals and nations and through entire swaths of some faiths religion can be and is misused, misappropriated, and made to be destructive. When that happens the situations deserve our empathy and unqualified, directed criticism and support to seek change. But rejecting a positive and productive place of faith in the world and in individual lives and even to some degree in spaces that you have to share just makes you a willfully ignorant person and in an increasingly secular society sometimes little more than an anti-religious bully.

I'm too much of a datahead to accept the idea of our biblical God as presented, as are many people who would still defend faith and religion and infinite possibility. I'm also too much of a datahead not to recognize the limitations of my own mind. I think the greatest failure of the Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens types, the capital 'S' skeptics and the atheism-as-religion people is to fail to see the limits of deductive reasoning and their own realities. A failure of humility really. In a history likely spanning billions of years we're a relative spit past the barber and surgeon being the same guy because he had the sharp tools. We're scientific infants in many ways. There is so much about the nature of reality and consciousness and the human mind that is beyond current formal scientific knowledge, and may always be. I choose to remain curious, open and respectful of all faith and religion in all its positive forms, something I see as a logically imperfect and necessarily limited human response to an otherwise formless sense of there being something more, something bigger and beyond, something about goodness and purpose and threads running through our lives just beyond our grasp. Faith is an intimate and integral personal experience that in my observation most people thankfully recognize as something that is generally not deserving of mocking or arbitrary diminishment based on their own relatively narrow experiences.

Solaris, I'm not saying life has to be all sunshine and roses. There are bad things and bad people we have to deal with on occasion. Sometimes a string of bad things happen to us and we have to have the endurance to get through those times. However we must be resilient enough to eventually return to our default mode of enjoying life. If the world seems dark, scary, evil, or just generally not worth it most of the time, then this is a clue that a person needs help to stop feeling this way all the time - because it is not normal.

I think you did not understand me - maybe because also of my limitation of my English language - I am not living in paranoia, I enjoy life and truth, I am thankful for everything and I am not depressed. I am "just" a philosopher and a critical investigative thinker.

[QUOTE] [b]Donna13 wrote:[/b]

Solaris, I'm not saying life has to be all sunshine and roses. There are bad things and bad people we have to deal with on occasion. Sometimes a string of bad things happen to us and we have to have the endurance to get through those times. However we must be resilient enough to eventually return to our default mode of enjoying life. If the world seems dark, scary, evil, or just generally not worth it most of the time, then this is a clue that a person needs help to stop feeling this way all the time - because it is not normal.[/QUOTE]

the documentary I mentioned is a serious documentary which has sources and explanation. "blind" belief is no good and leads to nowhere, that is true.
it seems everyone who is critical is labelled as consiracy theorist or enprisoned in psychiatry - this is tragic... after all Sokrates was killed for his love of truth

[QUOTE] [b]Donna13 wrote:[/b]

I imagine that biased documentaries and conspiracy theories are most likely to mislead those who cannot trust "the system" or official sources, or even friends and family who love them, yet they have no trouble trusting the word of a documentary film maker or someone promoting conspiracy theories. It is ironic that they are so willing to put full trust and belief in those who tell them they should not trust or believe anyone.

Many educated people have trouble with their mind, or their mood, and it is nothing to be ashamed of. They cannot blame themselves because they are not at fault for having this problem. Look at Brian May. He realized he needed professional help in order to go on living. And he is glad he got that help that has allowed him to fight his depression. It was not his fault that he was seeing the world as a dark unhappy place. It was a medical condition.[/QUOTE]

"it seems everyone who is critical is labelled as consiracy theorist or enprisoned in psychiatry - this is tragic"

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^This statement is a very good example of a misperception of reality, although you may be exaggerating to make a point. Watching a documentary is not research. Your English is very good and I do not misunderstand your comments because of your English, but maybe I misunderstand you in general. However, you do sound mixed up to me. Why don't you do your own research by reading scientific journals and papers, about what progress is currently being made with cancer research, then you can judge for yourself if everything in the documentary is correct.

yes, it can be true, that you don't understand me in general but that is really no problem to me - I never stated here that I like to force you or somebody to believe - I wrote my statement/ opinion/ research results and thought it was of interest - I am sorry if it was received as forcing - I never intended it.

I also don't see that I have exaggerated - I wrote "it seems", not "it clearly is" that everyone is labelled etc

Yes, I do research on cancer (hmm I have never mentioned that watching only one documentary is enough to know everything about cancer) - my grandfather died of cancer couple of years ago.

[QUOTE] [b]solaris wrote:[/b]

I am "just" a philosopher and a critical investigative thinker.

[/QUOTE]

You don't appear to be an effective critical thinker though. And that's the problem. I've noted before that the ability to glean whether evidence and arguments fully and adequately support any given statement or concept is a very specific skill. One that conspiracy theorists virtually never have. Sadly that dooms you all to echo chambers of the like minded, thinking the rest of us are drowning in unenlightenment.

I'm an atheist too. I'm an Anthropology student.

another very "friendly" reply. thank you. Now I know why I left Queenzone. No support at all and no respect in serious discussions with different views. Did I say something disrespectful here?
I even do not think that you are drowning in unenlightment - I am not that person at all - again this is a misconception.
I agree with the point that I cannot argument on English well and I must learn that in this language. But what do I get?
You cannot judge me not knowing nothing about me.
adieu, goodbye.

[QUOTE] [b]GratefulFan wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]solaris wrote:[/b]

I am "just" a philosopher and a critical investigative thinker.

[/QUOTE]

You don't appear to be an effective critical thinker though. And that's the problem. I've noted before that the ability to glean whether evidence and arguments fully and adequately support any given statement or concept is a very specific skill. One that conspiracy theorists virtually never have. Sadly that dooms you all to echo chambers of the like minded, thinking the rest of us are drowning in unenlightenment.

[/QUOTE]

It's neither indented to be friendly nor unfriendly. You embrace ideas that are not credible and that are further poorly argued and poorly supported in every paranoid corner in which they exist. You don't appear to grasp this, thus my comments on the effectiveness of your investigative thinking.

People embracing conspiracy theories ruin my appetite for discussion, because all reasonable arguments go out the window. The thing with conspiracy theories is that by definition they defy all evidence, so they cannot be seriously discussed: any random thing can be taken as "evidence" in support of them, and any evidence against them is part of the conspiracy.

When somebody tops that up with talk of the occult, I get nauseous. As an historian, I am quite familiar with what in past centuries was termed "occultism" (the 16th century is littered with it), and there's nothing about the occult that is either dangerous or has a potential to take over the world in any way. The thing is, more than 90% of everything "occult" (the word means "hidden") is just a coded way of discussing things the church didn't like (i.e. (neo-)Platonic philosophy, hermeticism, Jewish mysticism, Enlightenment ideas) and what remains is mostly just bullshit along the lines of the Malleus Maleficarum (witchhunter's bible), which really is just a bunch of pornographic ravings by a (literally) deranged misogynist.

[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]

...what remains is mostly just bullshit along the lines of the Malleus Maleficarum (witchhunter's bible), which really is just a bunch of pornographic ravings by a (literally) deranged misogynist. [/QUOTE]

Wow. How interesting to find mention of the Malleus Maleficarum here. It is one of the most disturbing things I have tried to read. I've had to put it down (and out of view) several times as I've attempted to get through it. I was hoping to use it for research, but the little I've read has taken me in all sorts of dark directions. To think this was looked at as a guide for so many is beyond disturbing. I know this is off topic but the first to catch my eye about it was a reviewer who pointed out the title itself and how 'maleficarum' is the feminine form of 'witch', whereas 'maleficorum' would be the gender-neutral form. Misogynistic indeed. From the title onward.

Ooh! What has happened to this thread? I am sorry to say, but some of that stuff Solaris put on here IS paranoid and deeply disturbing. What's worse is that he believes it. Not for us but for himself.

I have heard it said that however we view the world, we get to be right. And to have such a toxic view of the world can only poison a person and affect their health. Much better to have a positive view I think than see wickedness and evil everywhere.

to get back on topic, I myself am an atheist but to each their own :)