The very best weapon (and gift) Hamas needs is education of a particularly ignorant populace. Netanyahu has ridiculously invoked Ferguson and IS in making Hamas comparisons. If people of the United States would spend a few minutes reading essays and documented evidence from reliable sources, Israel would be defeated, and would be forced to stop bombing and bullying/stealing from Palestinians and Bedouins. The US is the weakest link as Netanyahu knows he can work US.
Donna13 · Member since
Israel's very poor treatment of the Palestinians is a direct reaction to Palestinian violence (as is the wall). Until Hamas can think long term (i.e. acceptance of Israel), there will never be peace.
Using your population as human shields is not being protective. Hamas is considered a terrorist organization. Terrorists do not protect others. They use violence such as suicide bombing, human shields of women and children, car bombs, attacking crowded trains and crashing airplanes into targets of civilians, kidnapping, and cutting off heads of reporters, and they do not care about human rights.
All the Muslims I meet here in the United States are highly educated and work in professional jobs. There is a brain drain happening in the Middle East. So much destruction and so many displaced people. Besides disease in Africa, and our (the human population) destruction and abuse of limited natural resources, this Islamic terrorism violence is the great tragedy of this period of human history.
thomasquinn 32989 · Member since
The key thing is - if one side is being ruled by terrorists, that does NOT give the other side the right to stoop down to their level (using a far larger amount of force to boot), victimizing the SAME civilians yet again. I have not seen anyone with any amount of intelligence defend or support Hamas, but the go-to response for very many pro-Netanyahu people is "if you don't support unlimited force by Israel, you support Hamas". That kind of argumentation would, in any other situation, disqualify a person from any reasonable conversation, but oddly, it is accepted when used to defend the aggressive Likud foreign policy.
The Real Wizard · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]Donna13 wrote:[/b]
Israel's very poor treatment of the Palestinians is a direct reaction to Palestinian violence (as is the wall).[/QUOTE]
Hamas didn't exist when Israel started building illegal settlements in the 60s. Please stick to facts and realize who the perpetrator is here.
[QUOTE]Using your population as human shields is not being protective.
[/QUOTE]
That is a propaganda talking point. Debunked here:
The attached graphic should be easily understandable for any ten year old.
The root of this problem is not Palestine.
The Real Wizard · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]
the go-to response for very many pro-Netanyahu people is "if you don't support unlimited force by Israel, you support Hamas".[/QUOTE]
The good ol' divide and conquer binary thinking technique. If you try to convince people that there are only two options, just enough of them will pick the one you select for them.
brENsKi · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]The Real Wizard wrote:[/b]
The attached graphic should be easily understandable for any ten year old.
The root of this problem is not Palestine.[/QUOTE]
yes, of course it makes it easily understandable. but why use 1946 as point zero?
because it suits YOUR argument. how about you go back to the middle ages? the ottomans? the crusades? old testament times? like everything in history - geographical land mass and settlement changes...America (for one) should understand that better than anyone.
what did the united states look like in the late 1700s? certainly a different shape and land mass to today.
something else that the terrorist apologists here seem to forget:
how is Israel taking over Palestine? Israel and Jordan were the land originally deemed Palestine. Jordan was established primarily to facilitate the establishment of Israel. So in essence Jordan has "stolen" more or Palestine than Israel ever did...something that Arab propaganda completely ignores because by inclusion their argument is empty
brENsKi · Member since
[b]Some actual facts and history:
[i] From 1517-1917 Turkey's Ottoman Empire controlled a vast Arab empire, a portion of which is today Lebanon, Syria, and Palestine. During World War I (1914-1918), Turkey supported Germany. When Germany was defeated, so were the Turks. In 1916 control of the southern portion of their Ottoman Empire was "mandated" to France and Britain under the Sykes-Picot Agreement, which divided the Arab region into zones of influence. Lebanon and Syria were assigned (mandated) to France... and "Palestine" (today's Jordan, Israel and "West Bank" and Gaza ) was mandated to Great Britain. Because no other peoples had ever established a national homeland in "Palestine" since the Jews had done it 2,000 years before, the British "looked favorably" upon the creation of a Jewish National Homeland throughout ALL of Palestine. The Jews had already begun mass immigration into Palestine in the 1880's in an effort to rid the land of swamps and malaria and prepare for the rebirth of Israel. This Jewish effort to revitalize the land attracted an equally large immigration of Arabs from neighboring areas who were drawn by employment opportunities and healthier living conditions. There was never any attempt to "rid" the area of what few Arabs there or those Arab masses that immigrated into this area along with the Jews!In July 1922, the League of Nations entrusted the Great Britain with The Palestine Mandate, including the land east of the Jordan river, recognizing "the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine." [/i] [i] In 1923, the British divided the "Palestine" portion of the Ottoman Empire into two administrative districts. The Great Britain made a deal with Hashemite Kingdom, Egypt and France in order to obtain control over Suez canal and oil reserves in Kerkut, as well as accommodate Bedouin refugees from the Saudi Peninsula, who were allowed to settle, ‘temporally’, in 1922 on the Eastern side of the Palestinian Mandate: The trans-Jordan (77% of the Palestinian Mandate) was given to the Saudi Arabian king's brother The Sinai, which was given to Egypt. Golan Heights (5% of the Palestinian Mandate) was ceded to the French controlled Syrian Mandate.in 1946 Trans-Jordan was renamed to "Jordan". In other words, the eastern 3/4 of Palestine would be renamed TWICE, in effect, erasing all connection to the name "Palestine!" However, the bottom line is that the Palestinian Arabs had THEIR "Arab Palestinian" homeland. The remaining 18% of Palestine (now WEST of the Jordan River) was to be the JewishPalestinian homeland. However, sharing was not part of the Arab psychological makeup then nor now. With the help of British Jews were forced out of Trans-Jordan! Encouraged and incited by growing Arab nationalism throughout the Middle East, the Arabs of that small remaining Palestinian territory west of the Jordan River launched never-ending murderous attacks upon the Jewish Palestinians in an effort to drive them out. Most terrifying were the Hebron massacres of 1929 and later during the 1936-39 "Arab Revolt." The British at first tried to maintain order but soon (due to the large oil deposits being discovered throughout the Arab Middle East) turned a blind eye. It became painfully clear to the Palestinian Jews that they must fight the Arabs AND drive out the British. The Palestinian Jews were forced to form an organized defense against the Arabs Palestinians.... thus was formed the Hagana, the beginnings of the Israeli Defense Forces [IDF]. There was also a Jewish underground called the Irgunled by Menachem Begin (who later became Prime Minister of Israel). Besides fighting the Arabs, the Irgun was instrumental in driving out the pro-Arab British. Finally in 1947 the British had enough and turned the Palestine matter over to the United Nations. [/i] [i] The 1947 U.N. Resolution 181 partition plan was to divide the remaining 18% of Palestine into a Jewish Palestinian State and a SECOND Arab Palestinian State (Trans-Jordan being the first) based upon population concentrations. The Jewish Palestinians accepted... the Arab Palestinians rejected. The Arabs still wanted ALL of Palestine... both east AND west of the Jordan River. Therefore, the resolution was not carried out and is not legally binding! Pro-Palestine-Arabs started the '48 war, and in so doing released the warlike appetites of a nation of survivors, a people with no place to run, who had repressed their rage for millennia, and had now earned full title to it! [/i]
[i] On May 14, 1948 the "Palestinian" Jews finally declared their own State of Israel and became "Israelis." On the next day, seven neighboring Arab armies... Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen... invaded Israel. Most of the Arabs living within the boundaries of the newly declared "ISRAEL" were encouraged to leave by the invading Arab armies to facilitate the slaughter of the Jews and were promised to be given all Jewish property after the victorious Arab armies won the war. The truth is that most of the Arab Palestinians who left in 1948 – between 400,000 to 500,000 – never saw an Israeli soldier! They did not flee because they feared Jews, but because of a rational and reasonable calculus: the Jews will be exterminated; we will get out of the way while that messy and dangerous business goes forward, and we will return afterwards to reclaim our homes, and to inherit those nice Jewish properties as well. They guessed wrong; and the Arab Palestinians are still tortured by the residual shame of their flight. So much for the blatant lie about Jews throwing out all the [Palestinian] Arabs! [/i] [i] Israel survived despite a 1% loss of its entire population! Those Arabs who did not flee became Israeli-Arab citizens. Those who fled are still called and artificially maintained as "Palestinian Arab refugees"The Arab propagandists and apologists almost never mentioned that in 1948, Arab armies launched a war against a one-day-old Israel. Instead he focused on the main consequence of that war: the creation of Arab refugees, stating that Israel "short of genocide" expelled 800,000 of them. This not only disagrees with UN estimates of a bit over 400,000 refugees but also ignores the fact that most of the Arabs/Palestinians were encouraged to leave by the Arab World itself! [/i] [i] The end result of the 1948-49 Israeli War of Independence was the creation of a Jewish State slightly larger than the ridiculous partition plan which was proposed by the 1947 United Nations Resolution 181. Egypt (occupying the Gaza Strip) and Trans-Jordan (occupying Judea-Samaria (a.k.a. the "West Bank" of the Jordan River) and East Jerusalem. In the next year (1950) Trans-Jordan formally merged this West Bank territory into itself and granted all those "Palestinian" Arabs living there Jordanian citizenship. Since Trans-Jordan was then no longer confined to one side of the Jordan River, it renamed itself simply "Jordan." In the final analysis, the Arabs of Palestine ended up with nearly 85% of the original territory of Palestine... called Jordan but in reality their ARAB "Palestinian state! But that was still not 100% and thus the conflict between Arab and Jew for "Palestine" would continue through four more wars and continuous Arab terrorist attacks upon the Israeli citizenry. It continues to this very day.[/i][/b]
thomasquinn 32989 · Member since
You know what Brenski? You can go fuck yourself with your heavily slanted copy-pasted BS. You accuse everyone who doesn't agree with you of selective reading, propaganda, misinterpreting and what not, but you yourself engage in some of the most hypocritical bullshit artistry I've ever seen on this forum.
You're such a filthy propagandist now that you try to force everyone who doesn't support Netanyahu and his FAR-RIGHT GOVERNMENT unconditionally into a pro-Hamas mould. That makes you a pathetic fucking bastard who can't win a discussion by arguments.
I've had it with you. Now that you try to usurp a position as a responsible historian you've crossed a line - you can go take your holier-than-thou attitude and your third-rate knowledge of history and cram it where they daylight never shines. You're so deluded that you probably still think you have the upper hand and the moral high ground in this argument, but you couldn't be more wrong. You support Israel unconditionally because the Jews were victimized by WWII - that basically makes you as much of a bigot as the people who want to kill all Jews because of Israel - you simply ignore that Israel does not represent all or even a majority of Jews. You're probably also crazy enough to agree with Netanyahu that JEWISH organizations that oppose his policies are anti-Semitic.
You've really shown your true face, Brenski, and it's not pretty. You're an arrogant bastard with a superiority complex and not nearly as much knowledge and expertise as you seem to think.
Anyone who justifies violence against innocent civilians is evil, and that is exactly what you do. You JUSTIFY Israeli WAR CRIMES and Israeli MASS MURDER ON CIVILIANS, and that, Brenski, makes you an evil person.
I could try to act like you and be a huge condescending jerk without resorting to swearing, but I'm not going to. You're a complete asshole and I don't give a shit what further idiocy you're going to hurl onto this forum - I've had it with you, and I'm not going to waste a single further character on your sorry person.
Donna13 · Member since
Of course, in Queenzone fashion, this thread has gone off topic and we are now discussing a very old conflict, rather than the relatively new and growing threat of "Islamic State" (ISIS, ISIL, or IS).
Note: The sentence quoted of mine used the word "Palestinians" - not "Hamas". I never mentioned the history of Hamas, as was implied. I only referred to the circumstances being currently under their control. Thinking long term means looking to the future and envisioning the outcome based on current and future decisions and actions. It does not mean thinking a long way into the past.
About the link that was supposed to debunk that Hamas and other terrorists use human shields: that link was not a news piece, but a biased opinion piece and possibly an attempt at propaganda. Reading only stuff like that is like listening to only one political party, or hearing only one side in a court case. Nothing wrong with reading it, but it cannot be solely relied on when forming a conclusion.
Anyway ... yesterday Palestinian militants executed 18 people in public areas.
Wow! Talk about some heavily slanted copy-pasting. No mention of the Jewish terrorist groups in British Mandate-Palestine. No mention of the King David Hotel bombings. Brenski, you are so full of your UNCONDITIONAL support of Israel (meaning unconditional support of LIKUD in this case) that you are unable to see how you are making yourself into a tool for militarist propaganda. You're practically working for the far right now! The worst thing is - you're someone who is usually fairly sane, but you throw all reason to the wind when it comes to Israel's aggression on Palestine. You're one of those people who claim everyone who doesn't fully support EVERYTHING Israel does is actually supporting Hamas. I never thought YOU of all people would be such a short-sighted, narrow-minded pro-warhawk jerk. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]
You know what Brenski? You can go fuck yourself with your heavily slanted copy-pasted BS. You accuse everyone who doesn't agree with you of selective reading, propaganda, misinterpreting and what not, but you yourself engage in some of the most hypocritical bullshit artistry I've ever seen on this forum.
You're such a filthy propagandist now that you try to force everyone who doesn't support Netanyahu and his FAR-RIGHT GOVERNMENT unconditionally into a pro-Hamas mould. That makes you a pathetic fucking bastard who can't win a discussion by arguments.
I've had it with you. Now that you try to usurp a position as a responsible historian you've crossed a line - you can go take your holier-than-thou attitude and your third-rate knowledge of history and cram it where they daylight never shines. You're so deluded that you probably still think you have the upper hand and the moral high ground in this argument, but you couldn't be more wrong. You support Israel unconditionally because the Jews were victimized by WWII - that basically makes you as much of a bigot as the people who want to kill all Jews because of Israel - you simply ignore that Israel does not represent all or even a majority of Jews. You're probably also crazy enough to agree with Netanyahu that JEWISH organizations that oppose his policies are anti-Semitic.
You've really shown your true face, Brenski, and it's not pretty. You're an arrogant bastard with a superiority complex and not nearly as much knowledge and expertise as you seem to think.
Anyone who justifies violence against innocent civilians is evil, and that is exactly what you do. You JUSTIFY Israeli WAR CRIMES and Israeli MASS MURDER ON CIVILIANS, and that, Brenski, makes you an evil person.
I could try to act like you and be a huge condescending jerk without resorting to swearing, but I'm not going to. You're a complete asshole and I don't give a shit what further idiocy you're going to hurl onto this forum - I've had it with you, and I'm not going to waste a single further character on your sorry person.[/QUOTE]
i've put BOTH your replies together in an attempt to address them both.
for the last time Capser: nowhere - i repeat NOWHERE have i approved of Israel's role in this. I am merely pointing out that some people here are behaving like sheep and refusing to accept any fault on the palestine/hamas side of things - which there clearly is huge fault. my cut and paste has historical fact in in. and the facts are that Hamas and various palestinian/arab terror organisations posing as legitimate govts down the decades have all attempted to eradicate israel.
the Jordan reference is pertinent - for obvious territorial reasons - that 60% of what was palestine went to on to become Jordan - but you don't hear Hamas swearing to claim that back do you? It's either ALL Palestine or it isn't.
one last point. nowhere have i stooped to insulting YOU or anyone in this thread - check you'll see i'm right. and for that i'm definitely out of this one.
my opinion is different to yours - buti haven't tried to indoctrinate or condescend - i've shown the other side of the coin - something very few here are bothering to do., i've put my point across the same as you have, yet somehow because YOU are a historian only YOURS counts. and to make your point somehow more worthy you stoop to insults and name-calling. but you know what?
i'm not calling you "evil" or "a warhawk jerk" or telling you "go fuck yourself" "bigot" "condescending jerk" etc. there's only YOU - doing that. eventually you'll see that YOU overstepped the mark with the insults. - or at least i hope you will.
ps - don't expect me to bite back at any reply you post - you've got nasty and personal without ANY due cause. You could've chose to argue/discuss in an adult and intelligent manner, but you chose personal insults and shouting loudest to make sure you win your spat - well ok, have your win. i'll know that i at least this time didn't lose it, and didn't stoop to trading spiteful insulting broadsides.
Donna13 · Member since
Some of these world situations are stressful to think about. I mean, we have no idea how things will develop, we can't control what is happening, and world events could begin to effect us directly, if they have not already. I should think that it would be preferable at some point to turn off the TV, stop looking at online news stories, and just do some gardening, go for a bike ride, or some other activity to enjoy the day (if we are fortunate enough to not live in a war zone).
ParisNair · Member since
It is my opinion that in order for the Israel-Palestine conflict to end, the first step will have to be taken by Palestine. Palestine will have to acknowledge and recognize that Israel is here to stay, and give up all hostilities. Or else, sooner than later even the remaining patches of land belonging to them (as per Wizard's graphic) will turn white.
Regarding IS, obviously they need to be finished at the earliest, and obviously it can be done only by intervention of US and the west. However, I hope US learns from the past, and does not implement the decades-old strategy of arming the local opposition instead of taking direct action/bringing in troops from friendly neighbors (like Saudi Arabia?). I hope there are lessons learnt from Afghanistan (starting from 80s)/Al Qaeda/Irag/Libya and even IS themselves. But of course, if that is the whole intention to start with, then it's a different matter.
FreddieCat · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]ParisNair wrote:[/b]
It is my opinion that in order for the Israel-Palestine conflict to end, the first step will have to be taken by Palestine. Palestine will have to acknowledge and recognize that Israel is here to stay, and give up all hostilities. Or else, sooner than later even the remaining patches of land belonging to them (as per Wizard's graphic) will turn white.
Regarding IS, obviously they need to be finished at the earliest, and obviously it can be done only by intervention of US and the west. However, I hope US learns from the past, and does not implement the decades-old strategy of arming the local opposition instead of taking direct action/bringing in troops from friendly neighbors (like Saudi Arabia?). I hope there are lessons learnt from Afghanistan (starting from 80s)/Al Qaeda/Irag/Libya and even IS themselves. But of course, if that is the whole intention to start with, then it's a different matter.[/QUOTE]
Hamas made this clear that it is not associated with IS and denounced IS. Palestine has in the past endured Israel's attacks through nonviolent strategy such as BDS, but chose to put up resistance this time.
Every ignorant moment spent blaming Hamas and accusing it of being IS is a lost moment and time needed to take on IS. The time is now to act on this monster.
ParisNair · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]FreddieCat wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE] [b]ParisNair wrote:[/b]
It is my opinion that in order for the Israel-Palestine conflict to end, the first step will have to be taken by Palestine. Palestine will have to acknowledge and recognize that Israel is here to stay, and give up all hostilities. Or else, sooner than later even the remaining patches of land belonging to them (as per Wizard's graphic) will turn white.
Regarding IS, obviously they need to be finished at the earliest, and obviously it can be done only by intervention of US and the west. However, I hope US learns from the past, and does not implement the decades-old strategy of arming the local opposition instead of taking direct action/bringing in troops from friendly neighbors (like Saudi Arabia?). I hope there are lessons learnt from Afghanistan (starting from 80s)/Al Qaeda/Irag/Libya and even IS themselves. But of course, if that is the whole intention to start with, then it's a different matter.[/QUOTE]
Hamas made this clear that it is not associated with IS and denounced IS. Palestine has in the past endured Israel's attacks through nonviolent strategy such as BDS, but chose to put up resistance this time.
Every ignorant moment spent blaming Hamas and accusing it of being IS is a lost moment and time needed to take on IS. The time is now to act on this monster.
[/QUOTE]
I have not implied that Hamas is somehow the same as IS. Indeed my opinion is just the opposite.
