So basically, the jury (a perversion of justice to begin with) decided that some witnesses weren't reliable, and so it's not a problem that a cop shot an unarmed boy. The cop says the boy would have beaten him to death, apparently with his bare hands as he didn't have any kind of weapon, makeshift or otherwise, on or near him when he was shot. That the jury DID believe. I didn't know they hired hysterical cowards as cops nowadays - if you're afraid some random unarmed teenager is going to kill you, and you respond by opening fire, you should go into accountancy instead.
Respect for the police? Not anymore, thanks to the police. This is the umpteenth incident with aggressive cops this year and no, that's not just a USA issue.
I don't usually praise the UK, but at least they have the good sense not to immediately arm every policeman to the teeth.
So basically, the jury (a perversion of justice to begin with) decided that some witnesses weren't reliable, and so it's not a problem that a cop shot an unarmed boy. The cop says the boy would have beaten him to death, apparently with his bare hands as he didn't have any kind of weapon, makeshift or otherwise, on or near him when he was shot. That the jury DID believe. I didn't know they hired hysterical cowards as cops nowadays - if you're afraid some random unarmed teenager is going to kill you, and you respond by opening fire, you should go into accountancy instead.
Respect for the police? Not anymore, thanks to the police. This is the umpteenth incident with aggressive cops this year and no, that's not just a USA issue.
I don't usually praise the UK, but at least they have the good sense not to immediately arm every policeman to the teeth.[/QUOTE]
Justice was served whether you like the outcome or not.
magicalfreddiemercury · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]
I didn't know they hired hysterical cowards as cops nowadays - if you're afraid some random unarmed teenager is going to kill you, and you respond by opening fire, you should go into accountancy instead.
[/QUOTE]
The unarmed teen had just stolen cigars from a local shop and roughed up the elder clerk on the way out. The unarmed teen was huge, not only tall but bulky. He was an imposing force. He knew it and he used it.
But he WAS unarmed. He was mocking the cop, challenging him and getting in his face. Oddly, I thought those were all scenarios cops were trained to deal with.
Unfortunately, the evidence the Grand Jury threw out had to do with testimony that said Michael's hands were up when he was shot and that he'd been deliberately shot in the back multiple times. Three autopsies proved those eyewitness accounts to be false. He was shot through the front of one arm, the angle proving the arm was down. No shots entered his back but rather exited.
Excessive force still killed this unarmed youth and I can't even grasp the level of agony his parents feel.
I have one child, who’s now on her own. I worry for her but my worry will never match that of a parent of a black male. Young black men are seen as criminals throughout this country and I don't see that changing any time soon.
It's disgusting and shameful however...
Riots such as those in Ferguson, with black men – from within and beyond the community – arriving hours before the decision was read with scarves and masks hiding their faces, with loaded weapons and with the intent to do damage, don't help change public opinion. From that public opinion standpoint, violence from them is like some of the antics PETA pulls off - which no matter how much you might support their cause, make it nearly impossible to show or feel that support for them. (I'm not comparing the actions but the emotional responses to them)
There were riots in my hometown as well as in Ferguson and other places last night. My daughter is traveling now. Will she pass through these places? When? How high will the danger level be?
So not only am I horrified this cop got off without so much as a slap on the wrist – and that he’s neither the first nor will he be the last – but I also fear for the safety of others, including that of my own family.
One injustice fuels so many more and the cycle goes on with no end and no justice in sight.
EDIT - I got so caught up in the emotion of the situation I forgot to post an important part -
Michael Brown's parents not only pleaded for calm before the decision was read but have also been advocating for body cameras to be worn by all cops, in every precinct, at all times. It's an action, a result, that everyone should be able to rally behind. Even if it doesn't stop these things from happening (though in tests, it has proven to greatly reduce incidents of excessive force), or change the mindset, it will help to show proof - for both sides to see - of which actions were just and which were not.
brENsKi · Member since
Casper, what's your view on the incident near Cleveland of the young boy with the fake gun in the park?
Saint Jiub · Member since
I'll just leave this balanced but racist article from Fox News cuz Casper knows all.
I seriously fail to see anything wrong when a police officer shoots a thief who wants to harm him. And I don't care if the thief is black or white or orange with purple dots.
The Real Wizard · Member since
TQ - this is one of the few times we'll diametrically disagree.
The kid had just completed a robbery. He was confrontational towards the cop. He slammed the cop's car door in his face and tried to take his gun. The cop just did his job.
And the witnesses lied. They insisted the kid was shot in the back, but every expert in the book clarified that there was no gunshot sound to the back. Even if these people did have a legit case, they shot themselves in the foot with this one by lying. Yet if a black person shot another black person, there wouldn't be a single witness. Right.
These small US towns need to transfer the white cops somewhere else and hire more black cops. That's the closest thing to a solution they're ever going to find.
Donna13 · Member since
Well, I think that the evidence was not presented to the public until after the decision was made by the grand jury. The whole protest movement of "hands up; don't shoot" was based on something that didn't happen in the first place. Inaccurate reports are common among eye witnesses (stress, and/or false assumptions) so the forensic evidence is key to finding the truth among diverse accounts and memories.
The protests are about a bigger issue and that is the lifelong frustration of blacks about racial profiling. Young black men are seen as potentially armed and dangerous or more likely to become violent and so they are treated differently by people who are afraid of them. They feel they are being treated as less than human by society.
YourValentine · Member since
Whenever a policeman shoots a citizen into the face twice and there is no public trial there is something wrong with the justice system. The public must have the chance to hear the evidence, witnesses and facts. A human being was shot 6 times and the shooter was not even indicted. The alternative is civil war and that is what is happening now.
thomasquinn 32989 · Member since
[QUOTE]
[b]brENsKi wrote: [/b] Casper, what's your view on the incident near Cleveland of the young boy with the fake gun in the park?[/QUOTE]
Another obvious case of an overly aggressive, needlessly violent response by the police. Video images released show that the cop did not give the boy a ghost of a chance to comply with any instructions like "drop the gun", but shot him almost as soon as he got out of the car. Passers-by are, also on the basis of the same video, utterly unimpressed by the boy with his fake gun. The person who reported the incident to the police, leading to this brutal response, mentioned IN HIS PHONECALL TO THE POLICE that the gun was probably fake. The policeman shot the boy from so close that he must have been able to see the gun was fake. Even if he didn't, he was close enough to use non-lethal fire. This is manslaughter at the least, but the two-bit cop will go unpunished, because being a policeman puts you above the law, as it has been since 9/11 at the latest.
I have 0 respect left for the police. Policemen like this deserve to get shot up by gangs.
EDIT: there is, of course, another issue here - toy guns have gotten waaaaaay too realistic. That's something the manufacturers need to address, but in our hysterical free market, they won't so long as the things sell well. So this needs to be addressed through legislation, I think. Still, if you see a 12-year-old in a park with a gun, your first assumption should not be that he is a hardened criminal looking to kill people. I seriously doubt this tragedy would have happened 50 years ago, even if the the gun had been fairly realistic. I work with children (ages 8-14 mostly) a lot, and I see an increasing intolerance of children and child-like behaviour by adults. That worries me deeply - children are increasingly expected to act like responsible adults from before they're 10. Even in my 'tolerant' country, The Netherlands, we've had about a dozen incidents the past three years of adults threatening schools with violence, and in one case an actual (fortunately non-lethal) attack, because the children are being "too loud" in the playground!!!
thomasquinn 32989 · Member since
[QUOTE]
[b]The Real Wizard wrote: [/b] TQ - this is one of the few times we'll diametrically disagree.
The kid had just completed a robbery. He was confrontational towards the cop. He slammed the cop's car door in his face and tried to take his gun. The cop just did his job.
And the witnesses lied. They insisted the kid was shot in the back, but every expert in the book clarified that there was no gunshot sound to the back. Even if these people did have a legit case, they shot themselves in the foot with this one by lying. Yet if a black person shot another black person, there wouldn't be a single witness. Right.
These small US towns need to transfer the white cops somewhere else and hire more black cops. That's the closest thing to a solution they're ever going to find. [/QUOTE]
Lethal force is unacceptable when there are alternatives, period. Let me just point out that it's a statistical fact that crime rates throughout the western world have been declining for decades. However, the number of incidents where police shoot innocents or kill culprits with no need has been rising for over 10 years. Police violence is one of the biggest threats to our democratic society right now. The way police violence is covered up 99 times out of 100 is a related threat that needs to be dealt with right now.
thomasquinn 32989 · Member since
[QUOTE]
[b]YourValentine wrote: [/b] Whenever a policeman shoots a citizen into the face twice and there is no public trial there is something wrong with the justice system. [/QUOTE]
Exactly.
brENsKi · Member since
[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]brENsKi wrote: [/b] Casper, what's your view on the incident near Cleveland of the young boy with the fake gun in the park?[/QUOTE]
Another obvious case of an overly aggressive, needlessly violent response by the police. Video images released show that the cop did not give the boy a ghost of a chance to comply with any instructions like "drop the gun", but shot him almost as soon as he got out of the car. Passers-by are, also on the basis of the same video, utterly unimpressed by the boy with his fake gun. The person who reported the incident to the police, leading to this brutal response, mentioned IN HIS PHONECALL TO THE POLICE that the gun was probably fake. The policeman shot the boy from so close that he must have been able to see the gun was fake. Even if he didn't, he was close enough to use non-lethal fire. This is manslaughter at the least, but the two-bit cop will go unpunished, because being a policeman puts you above the law, as it has been since 9/11 at the latest.
I have 0 respect left for the police. Policemen like this deserve to get shot up by gangs.
EDIT: there is, of course, another issue here - toy guns have gotten waaaaaay too realistic. That's something the manufacturers need to address, but in our hysterical free market, they won't so long as the things sell well. So this needs to be addressed through legislation, I think. Still, if you see a 12-year-old in a park with a gun, your first assumption should not be that he is a hardened criminal looking to kill people. I seriously doubt this tragedy would have happened 50 years ago, even if the the gun had been fairly realistic. I work with children (ages 8-14 mostly) a lot, and I see an increasing intolerance of children and child-like behaviour by adults. That worries me deeply - children are increasingly expected to act like responsible adults from before they're 10. Even in my 'tolerant' country, The Netherlands, we've had about a dozen incidents the past three years of adults threatening schools with violence, and in one case an actual (fortunately non-lethal) attack, because the children are being "too loud" in the playground!!![/QUOTE]
1] you appear to ignore the fact that someone brandishing a gun - fake or otherwise - is not doing it for genuine reasons. it's 100% for ill intent. people waving fake guns around want others to believe it's real - that's the whole point of them.
2] he was asked to raise his hands - but deliberately did the opposite. sometimes people who carry weapons - fake or otherwise have to be accountable for their own actions and the consequences. - live by the (fake) sword....
3] as regards the Missouri shooting - there is no coverup - all the evidence has been made public domain - which i think was a sound approach to take.
4] blood spatter inside the patrol car? that seems like "clear and present danger" to me
5] if someone in a uniform with a gun tells you to stop and raise your hands - why would any law-abiding person then do otherwise?
6] rent-a-mob? what's all that about? why does a community go into meltdown in these situations? it helps nothing - no way was the mob all from outlying districts....many of those arrested were locals. you want to protest about this? sit down and refuse to move - and let the cameras film your quiet protest - don't go wrecking, rampaging and pillaging - all that does is cast every citizen in the same light
YourValentine · Member since
Brensky, this policeman fired 12 shots, six bullets went into the body of Michael Brown, two went into his face. Do you really believe that this is an appropriate response for feeling attacked by an unarmed person? A policeman is not accuser, jury, judge and executioner in one person - even if the person stole a pack of cigars. This is not a crime punishable by death, neither is threatening a policeman a crime punishable by death.
If a policeman is unable to arrest an unarmed person without shooting him dead he is in the wrong job. I am shocked about so many people thinking that a policeman has the right to kill a citizen if that citizen does not obey immediately to the commands of the policeman. This is not the law in a democracy. As a result of this common thinking cases like Cleveland happen: a 12 year old kid scared too much to react quick enough is shot dead by two adult policemen who do not give the child the slightest chance to survive.
According to a piece in the NYT young black men are killed by policemen 21 times as often as white guys and murder is the most frequent cause of death for young black men. That is the background of the riots. If nothing changes more riots will happen, it is inevitable. If a part of society feel they are easy game for racist police forces they will fight back sooner or later - they really think they have nothing to lose.
brENsKi · Member since
it's sooooooooooooooo easy to take the anti-police side isn't it?
let's face some facts:
1] your "scared 12 yr old" was brave enough to pretend he had a gun and wave it about enough in a public place to cause alarm and distress to innocent bystanders. it's NEVER going to end happily for ANYONE who brandishes any kind of firearm in public - and so it shouldn't.
2] yes 12 shots maybe appear heavy handed - but the guy reached into the police car and assaulted the cop, and tried to attack him again after being shot once. tell me that if YOU had shot someone and they still came at you that YOU wouldn't be genuinely frightened?
3] i don't hear YOU or Casper condemning all of the [ahem] witness statements passing off bare-faced lies as evidence in order to frame the cop.
whatever you consider to be wrong with the administration of law and order - there's 1,000% more wrong with people these days. in what kind of world is it right and proper to wave a gun around in public or assault cops?
way i see it? if you don't do wrong then your chances of falling foul of the law are remote. and i know you're going to come down on me - but you know what? if there's a few less people waving guns about, then i for one won't weep over the loss of life.
and while we're at it, leftie-liberals are as much a part of the problem. it's so easy to constantly whine on about what's wrong with law enforcement, and lament the breakdown of human rights...blah blah blah - how about these people start providing genuine solutions - and not ones that'll take years. if something's wrong it needs fixing now.
lefties - it's time to put up or shut up.
