Justice? Not if you get killed by some two-bit cop.

[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b] Lethal force is unacceptable when there are alternatives, period. Let me just point out that it's a statistical fact that crime rates throughout the western world have been declining for decades. However, the number of incidents where police shoot innocents or kill culprits with no need has been rising for over 10 years. Police violence is one of the biggest threats to our democratic society right now. The way police violence is covered up 99 times out of 100 is a related threat that needs to be dealt with right now.[/QUOTE] I agree - it is an extremely big problem in the US. This would be funny if it weren't so true: ^ and that's before we get into the race issues. But the Ferguson MO case isn't one of these cases. It was a cop defending himself from someone attacking him after committing a crime. I'm not condoning what the cop did, but would this kid have reacted the same way if the cop was white? There is racism on both sides. This is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. If it gets better.

[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]YourValentine wrote: [/b] Whenever a policeman shoots a citizen into the face twice and there is no public trial there is something wrong with the justice system.
[/QUOTE]
Exactly.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

However - the evidence is all there, and the correct decision was made in this case. Legally speaking. Making a trial like this public in such a racially charged atmosphere just isn't in public interest. What we're seeing on the streets of Ferguson would've been happening before the end result was read out, not just after.

Either way, this is the result. No matter what the process was or wasn't, American society is worse this week than the last.

And guys like Al Sharpton just aren't helping. He thinks his race baiting is doing a public service, but it's only creating a wider divide between races.

What a mess that country is.

@ Brenski - you mix up two cases, I am afraid I did the same.
I do not see it at a crime when a 12 year old kid waves around a toy gun although I think toys which can be mistaken for real should not even exist. In the Cleveland case it may be early to judge but the caller who alerted the cops on the phone said he thought it's a fake gun. From the video we can see that the cops fired with no warning immediately after jumping out of the car. I do not know about you but when two policemen jumped out of a car aiming at me with fire arms I would possibly freeze and not being able to move at all. For heavens sake: it was 2 adults with guns against a 12 year old child with a toy - how can anybody not see the wrong here and blame the dead child?

@ Bob - you say that a trial was not on in the Ferguson case because the atmosphere was so heated. In a democracy there has to be ALWAYS a trial no matter what the circumstances are. You cannot abandon the rule of law because it's not convenient. If the policeman had stood trial and the evidence and witnesses would have shown that it was an act of self defense it would have been self defense and the people would have had the chance to hear the evidence and witnesses. In this case, however, the DA left it to the (majorly white) jury to decide if charges were filed and the procedure was behind closed doors. It's not okay that the DA switches the rules to protect a police officer - it does not do any good to the police officer and to the community. Fair, open and PUBLIC trial is the only way to uphold the rule of law and the rules must apply for everybody. If that is not the case people will lose trust in the system.

[QUOTE] [b]YourValentine wrote:[/b]

@ Brenski - you mix up two cases, I am afraid I did the same.
I do not see it at a crime when a 12 year old kid waves around a toy gun although I think toys which can be mistaken for real should not even exist. In the Cleveland case it may be early to judge but the caller who alerted the cops on the phone said he thought it's a fake gun. From the video we can see that the cops fired with no warning immediately after jumping out of the car. I do not know about you but when two policemen jumped out of a car aiming at me with fire arms I would possibly freeze and not being able to move at all. For heavens sake: it was 2 adults with guns against a 12 year old child with a toy - how can anybody not see the wrong here and blame the dead child?
[/QUOTE]
1] i do not confuse two cases - i asked earlier in this thread for Casper's opinion on the cleveland case - so i brought this to the table
2] did you see the "toy" you refer to? that thing was designed to be convincing - we all know the purpose of these "fakes" - they fool enough store owners who get robbed - so even close up they must look realistic enough
3] 2 adults against a child? really??? sorry - if you're going to carry something that looks like the real thing - then you deserve to be treated like you are carrying the real thing for a purpose.

like i said, i have no sympathies - people carry knives and guns with only ill-intent - because children can't be evil, mad, dangerous, murderous can they? sometimes the "blame the authorities" hand-wringing really achieves nothing.
Fact is, I'd much much much rather one idiot "child" or adult carrying a "fake" or real gun is killed by police than run the risk of several innocent civilians get mown down by a lunatic with a gun. what happens when these loonies do use the guns? the lefties are the first to ask "where were the police" and "why didn't the police stop him - by any means"

police are in a no-win situation - and i guarantee that every single do-gooder is more than qualified to criticse but could NEVER do their job?
ever heard the expression "walk a mile in his shoes" ? try it, then you're qualified to speak out.

some evidence to warm the cockles of your leftie hearts:
++++++++++++++
1] On June 1, 2004, an 11-year-old schoolgirl, best known as "Girl A"(*), murdered her 12-year-old classmate, Satomi Mitarai, in an empty classroom during lunch at an elementary school in Japan.
2] On February 20, 2009, 11-year-old Jordan Brown killed his father's fiancée, Kenzie Marie Houk, 26, in Wampum, Pennsylvania. Houk, 8 1/2 months pregnant, was shot in the back of the head with Brown's .20-gauge youth model shotgun while lying in bed.
3] On April 22, 2006, when Jasmine Richards was just 12, she and her boyfriend murdered her parents and younger brother in their home in Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada. Richards' parents didn't approve of her relationship with 23-year-old Jeremy Steinke.
4] A boy in Sao Paulo, Brazil, was accused of killing his police officer parents, his grandmother and great-aunt before spending a full day at school and then taking his own life. Police believe 13-year-old Marcelo Pesseghini shot each victim in the head with a .40 caliber pistol. Police sergeant Luiz Marcelo Pesseghini, 40, wife Andreia Regina, 36, grandmother Benedita, 65, and great-aunt Bernadete, 55, were all killed in bed.
5] In 2011,13-year-old Cristian Fernandez was charged with first-degree murder after the beating death of his 2-year-old half-brother. He was also charged with the sexual abuse of his 5-year-old half-brother.
6] 40-year-old Terry King, was murdered by his own children, Alex, 12, and Derek, 13. Derek waited until his father fell asleep then bashed him ten times on the head and face with an aluminum baseball bat. The boys then set fire to the house to try to conceal the crime.

[QUOTE] [b]YourValentine wrote:[/b]

@ Bob - you say that a trial was not on in the Ferguson case because the atmosphere was so heated. In a democracy there has to be ALWAYS a trial no matter what the circumstances are. You cannot abandon the rule of law because it's not convenient. If the policeman had stood trial and the evidence and witnesses would have shown that it was an act of self defense it would have been self defense and the people would have had the chance to hear the evidence and witnesses. In this case, however, the DA left it to the (majorly white) jury to decide if charges were filed and the procedure was behind closed doors. It's not okay that the DA switches the rules to protect a police officer - it does not do any good to the police officer and to the community. Fair, open and PUBLIC trial is the only way to uphold the rule of law and the rules must apply for everybody. If that is not the case people will lose trust in the system.[/QUOTE]

Of course you're right. That's how it works in the civilized world.

But this is the US...

@ Brenski - of course there are terrible things in this world and sometimes children will kill people, although it is very rare. This does not justify killing a child carrying a TOY gun without any warning and without giving the child the chance to surrender. The boy could not possibly kill two adults with a toy gun, could he? The two policemen make themselves look like scared, frightened cowards, maybe hardcore xenophobes who think that any black child is in fact a monster. But of of course they live in their society where violence is often the only answer and gun killings are more common than anywhere else in the world but that must be changed for the sake of social peace.

For your information, I am not a "leftie" whatever that is supposed to mean. I am a human rights acitivist and I am getting used to be called "gooddoer", even "tree-hugger" etc. I find it strange that people of the other spectrum of the discussion are always the ones who resort to name-calling and personal insults. That makes it so hard to have a civilized discussion. I am not "anti-American", either - many Americans do share my views and support me when it comes to human rights violations in Europe and Germany.

@ Bob - thank you :-)

[QUOTE] [b]brENsKi wrote:[/b]



like i said, i have no sympathies - people carry knives and guns with only ill-intent - because children can't be evil, mad, dangerous, murderous can they? sometimes the "blame the authorities" hand-wringing really achieves nothing.
Fact is, I'd much much much rather one idiot "child" or adult carrying a "fake" or real gun is killed by police than run the risk of several innocent civilians get mown down by a lunatic with a gun. what happens when these loonies do use the guns? the lefties are the first to ask "where were the police" and "why didn't the police stop him - by any means"

[/QUOTE]

First of all - you would probaly think different if it were YOUR child killed by the police. Secondly, this happens all the time: people feeling scared of other people shoot them like rabbits in order to protect their property or themselves from alleged or real attacks. You do not want to tell me that so-called "do-gooders" are responsible for such a social fabric? People who want health care, education, jobs and respect for everybody are not the problem, believe me. A 12 year old human being is a child and not a "child" in any civilized country.

I find the way brenski is 'discussing' here utterly distasteful. I am not going to dignify his law-and-order-at-the-cost-of-anything crap with any further response aside from saying that if you expect a 12-year-old to fully understand the implications of carrying a toy gun that is considered 'too realistic', then you are living in a psychotic fantasy.

A 12-year-old is a child. Children are not considered adults for a reason. Use your mental faculties to fill in the blanks.

my point - which BOTH yourself and Casper gloss over::
if you carry a gun - there will always be consequences. 
the parents of the child should look at themselves - NOT the law enforcement. 
there is no excuse for blaming the cops
this article:
[url=http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/24/us/boy-12-dies-after-being-shot-by-cleveland-police-officer.html?_r=0]http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/24/us/boy-12-dies-after-being-shot-by-cleveland-police-officer.html?_r=0[/url]
tries its level best to blame the cops - but  the closing paragraph is the most telling
[b][i]The police learned that the gun was fake after the shooting, Ms. Ciaccia said. The weapon was an “airsoft” replica gun resembling a semiautomatic pistol, with the orange safety tip removed, the police said.[/i][/b] 
just ask ONE question? why would someone remove the ONE characteristic that identifies the gun as fake? simple: - the "child" in question preferred it that people believed it to be real. therefore, for all intents and purposes this child was in possession of a real gun. and, as it's not legal to do so until the age of 21 for handguns, then, by consequence he was behaving and parading himself as a grown up.

and for the last time - i am NOT on the side of cops, i'm on the side of the facts. amazing how BOTH Barb and Casper repeatedly attack people that don't see their viewpoint.  i think you would both feel dramatically differently if some child with a gun shot and killed one of your nearest and dearest. And Casper, I find your tone patronizing and insulting. I have already explained my own personal view of cops in the past on this very site. In particular, living in Birmingham in the 1970s and my Irish dad being locked up for two days while west midlands police systematically rounded up, and afforded their sporting hospitality to every Irish guy in the city after the pub bombings. The difference between you and i Casper? I am capable of looking at this situation objectively despite my own previous experience. Your own views will never be changed - because you refuse point-blank to see anything that contradicts your own views of society as a whole.

One final consideration, The things wrong with society as a whole are not responsible for the deaths of these latest individuals, and we should not be portraying them as victims. These are hugely different events to Rodney King and similar cases. In BOTH these latest cases the cops are also victims. we should not forget that..

I'm going to say what i think. Both sides are right this time, is a real shame a policeman killed a boy with a fake gun, but also, in a dangerous country like USA, these policemen have to face a lot of dangerous situations, putting their lifes in danger.

Is not a better solution don't let people but weapons in the first place? Countries where the access to weapons is harder are safer, then why let everyone buy all the fireweapons they want?

[QUOTE] [b]Doga wrote:[/b]

Is not a better solution don't let people but weapons in the first place? Countries where the access to weapons is harder are safer, then why let everyone buy all the fireweapons they want?[/QUOTE]

Yes. Anyone raised in a remotely civilized manner would agree with you. But this will never, ever happen in the US. For three reasons:

1) N.
2) R.
3) A.

They are one of the strongest lobbies in Washington. If less guns are sold, their profits will plummet.

Greed is the primary reason why 30,000 Americans are killed by guns every year.

And what's even more unbelievable is a solid 1/3 of the country will stand by their right to own a gun regardless of frivolous things like "facts" and "data" - things like how a gun is 43x more likely to kill a family member or a friend before an intruder in the home.

A friend of mine's brother recently shot and killed himself with his father's gun. The gun was soon confiscated by police so they could analyze it, but the next day the father was already asking, "Where's my gun?"

I wish I was making that up.

[QUOTE] [b]The Real Wizard wrote:[/b]


A friend of mine's brother recently shot and killed himself with his father's gun. The gun was soon confiscated by police so they could analyze it, but the next day the father was already asking, "Where's my gun?"

I wish I was making that up.[/QUOTE]

That is just terrible!

But on the subject of cops, I feel that just like with everything else, there are good cops and bad cops. We have great lawyers as well as shysters, honest politicians as well as corrupt ones... same with cops. Some will be trigger happy, but most are really decent and try to do their job as well as they can. And believe me, if any of us is ever being threatened or in any danger (hopefully never), we will be screaming for a cop to come help first thing!

^ this.

Anti-cop people are just as bad as the gun nuts, just on the other end.

Often, it is not a matter of being corrupt, malicious or anything like that, even though that is a problem too (nearly 30% of all drugs confiscated by police in the Netherlands 'disappears' between the time it is checked into the administration and their destruction by incineration). Far more often, it's sheer incompetence - a problem not limited to policemen but rampant throughout society, but all the more dramatic when the incompetent person is authorized to use lethal force. Many policemen do not train in the details of their professional gun-use anywhere near the perscribed amount of time. Inadequate skill combined with panicky reactions can lead to incidents like the New York City one where the police shot several innocent people in trying to stop ONE person with a KNIFE.

[QUOTE] [b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote:[/b]

Far more often, it's sheer incompetence - a problem not limited to policemen but rampant throughout society, but all the more dramatic when the incompetent person is authorized to use lethal force.[/QUOTE]

This is what happens when buffoons get promoted to positions where they hire people. These HR people tend not to be out in the work force interacting with people, as this is generally left for those with consistently good people skills and decision making mechanisms (although obviously not always).

Why don't these people get fired to begin with? That's something I'll never understand. Unions ensure people have decent wages and benefits, but many have also become so strong to the point of protecting jobs held by incompetent morons.

Life is complicated.