Another Mass Shooting in the US

I don't understand the fight in this thread. We all want the same : to live in peace with no fear of being shot in the streets.

@magical - nobody in their right minds will blame you for Donald Trump, you are not responsible for the dumbness of this person. It is scary to see how the American nation is spilt up in paranoia and hatred, I blame wreckless public figures and most of all Fox "news".

Returning to the original subject it is obvious that the shoot out in San Bernadino has been called an "act of terror" easily because it fits into our expectation when the killers are from "outside" and do not come from the middle of the society as in former incidents when it was not called terror but "mass shooting" or even "tragedy".

European members of this boards immediately relate to the terrorist attack because it has happened in Europe, as well: hate crimes based on religious fanatism do NOT come from the middle of the society, In Europe such religiously motivated groups are a minority and specificly immigrant minority. We need to be careful and not blame the huge majority of immigrated muslims for such acts but we must have the right to point out this huge problem without being called xenophocic, islamophobes, racists or Nazis. If we do not address the problem openly and honestly we will split up into radicalised right wings and left wings and endanger our democracy.

In my country we are facing a huge crisis with over 1 million refugees this year, most of them from Syria, Afghanistan and other Middle East countries. It is obvious that fearful people mix up the problem of Islamistic terror with the refugee crisis. The main reason is not Islamophobia, it's fear from the dissolving structures of our government. We need to get hold of this problem or this will be the biggest crisis since WW2. The idea that terrorists move into the country with the refugees is a nightmare. I cannot imagine what would happen to our political culture in Europe if terrorists would come into Schengen with no control.

[QUOTE] [b]Oscar J wrote:[/b]
Ok, so your figures come from ISIS (interesting how you suddenly find them trustworthy!), and: "Mr Saab said he had no firm information on terrorist infiltration of refugees, but said his “gut feeling” told him it was happening."

ISIS want to scare and polarise people, and obviously they've succeeded with you. My comment still stands though. 
[/QUOTE]

You missed the point - again. where the f*** did i say i trust ISIS figures...try reading.
FYI - what i said was

[i][b]Figures suggest that 0.5% of ALL those Syrian Refugees that journeyed to Europe are terrorists...think about that for a minute.[/b] [/i]

the key part being the LAST SIX WORDS.  as in think...about it...from every angle.

and i find YOUR last sentence both patronizing and insulting - when YOU'RE the one who didn't read my original post properly. for the last time read and understand the last SIX WORDS

btw - anytime you want to say YOU got it wrong and YOU misunderstood - feel free. but don't patronize people when you can't even be bothered to read properly

97% of QZ'ers prefer mp3 over flac. ;p

Figures suggest that 97% of QZ'er prefer mp3 over flac (see above).

We should have banned all of the Irish from travel years ago because of the IRA.

Ban all exmilitary personnel from travelling anywhere in the US. Just a few examples are the shootings at the Washington DC Naval Yards in 2103, Fort Dix in 2001, Fort Hood in 2009......and need we forget, the Oklahoma City bombing in '95.

amazing.... that ronald the mc'Donald' spouts out such nonsense as he does, that I'm on the same side as Cheney and Paul Ryan and the rest of the GOP. Quite the 'uniter'......

Meanwhile, junior Jerry Falwell espouses all students at Liberty U to carry guns to 'end those Muslims'. Beyond the message being sick, he wants the kids to be armed. Meanwhile, in half of the student dorms, it is too dangerous to have a toaster, microwave, or a candle, but guns are fine.

can't fix stupid

(oh, and I only use mp3....)

If you just drop a comment like "Figures suggest [insert controversy here]" you're bound to get called on it. The way you phrased it made it sound like said "figures" were trustworthy results of a serious analysis or investigation we were to consider (you know, the way the phrase "figures suggest" usually is used).

Sensational numbers like that are just so commonly used these days in debates and on social media in Sweden, and more often than not, people believe them to be true without any questioning or reflection. I guess I have just grown tired of that way of arguing, and yes, I might have overreacted a bit. You don't have spiral out of control over it though.

[QUOTE] [b]Oscar J wrote:[/b]

If you just drop a comment like "Figures suggest [insert controversy here]" you're bound to get called on it. The way you phrased it made it sound like said "figures" were trustworthy results of a serious analysis or investigation we were to consider (you know, the way the phrase "figures suggest" usually is used).

Sensational numbers like that are just so commonly used these days in debates and on social media in Sweden, and more often than not, people believe them to be true without any questioning or reflection. I guess I have just grown tired of that way of arguing, and yes, I might have overreacted a bit. You don't have spiral out of control over it though.



[/QUOTE]

i didn't spiral out of control - i just pointed out that it's a bit rich you citing my credibility when you're the one who firstly, didn't read my post properly
and secondly, challenged me to name sources - your inference was i'd "made up the figures" - which i hadn't. and i've proven this....because YOU'RE too lazy to do a simple google search before challenging someone.
therefore you're actually wrong on that score - but you couldn't just admit being wrong...you had to wriggle and wriggle and wriggle.
only person whose credibility is reduced here is your own.

sometimes, the good thing to do is to admit (straight off the bat) that you could be wrong

I read your post very well. There was no way for me to know that you didn't actually believe the figures to be true.

Had there been a serious study about what percentage of the refugees are terrorists, I would have heard about it, as would likely most people. My presumption wasn't necessarily that you had made up the figures, it could just as well have been that you had taken the numbers from an untrustworthy source. Which you had. And even those sources didn't say 0.5%, so maybe you did pull the number out of your arse after all. There's certainly no 0.5% figure to find anywhere on google.

There is nothing for me to admit.

Same ole BrENsKi ...

My understanding of terrorism (in the past) was that the terrorists had a political objective (punishing the US or Israel or other governments for their actions or policies), and we (in the US) were told after 9/11 by the experts that the World Trade Center attack was aimed at the financial world and the Pentagon attack was aimed at the US government. Also the plane that went down in Pennsylvania when the passengers intervened was headed for Washington, DC to either hit Congress or the White House.

But with this new type of ISIS terrorism, all non-Muslims and even other Muslims are the target. Do they want to terrorize or just kill? I think they are a death cult and their objective is irrational. This is not a new phenomenon - religion taken to unhealthy levels and in the case of ISIS deadly levels.

My point is that the situation is changing and what we need to prepare for is unpredictable. For example, home grown terrorism. We don't know if incidents will increase or be less frequent. These "soft targets" of office parties and restaurants and concert venues are impossible to predict or to protect with the current thinking of just continuing to go about our business as usual. It is also impossible to know the outcome of this ISIS situation (how many will be recruited, how many months or years will this go on), because everything about ISIS is senseless.

Understanding that no leader has any answers at this time, it is interesting that so many are willing to quickly criticize Donald Trump for his ideas. I'd say they are no better or worse than any other ideas at this point, because nobody knows what would be best to do.

My personal view is that the US and other countries should allow all the refugees in, for humanitarian and economic reasons. The US has a few "dead" cities where houses and office buildings are empty, and the population has moved to other areas. So it is not as if we are too crowded.

[QUOTE] [b]Oscar J wrote:[/b]And even those sources didn't say 0.5%, so maybe you did pull the number out of your arse after all. There's certainly no 0.5% figure to find anywhere on google.

There is nothing for me to admit.

[/QUOTE]
yes they did say 0.5% - if you can be bothered to do some very basic maths
current total of Syrian's "displaced" and living in Europe = 807,337
article cites 4,000 ISIS
4,000 / 807,337 = 0.00495 - ie half of 1%

but you'd rather sling crap about and accuse people of pulling figures out of their arse. you're obviously able to use google, but unable to rationalise the 4,00 cited against the total displaced to Europe. pitiful

again, you can have your last word - go on - slag me off again. bear in mind, i've not called you or accused you of anything. but i have to prove where figures come from because you'd rather berate someone rather than actually do some sums.

and as for Panchgani - least surprising "wade-in" ever...same old Pachgani eh?

think i'll take another break from this site, until it's moderated by someone who'll tackle people hiding behind their keyboards hurling crap at people rather than actually discuss something

Right. So what you did was taking ISIS claims (!), made your own calculations, and then presented the result as "figures". That is not a serious way do discuss immigration matters. Why didn't you simply say "ISIS claims they have smuggled 4000 soldiers into Europe"?

I'm not slagging you off, I'm just criticising your argumentation and research methods. You on the other hand, have called me lazy, a keyboard warrior, and questioned my abilities in reading and mathematics.

If you want to discuss a matter of high controversy, you should be prepared for some heat. Why leave the site? I don't recall having any similar discussion with you in any thread, I normally don't even engage in political discussions. I simply reacted (admittedly a bit vigorously) on what is in my opinion a misleading way of using numbers to win an argument.

We can definitely call the discussion off, as I think it would be a shame if you left. Your posts on music matters are usually great.

for the last time
i didn't cite anything as an argument - i said "think about it"

i haven't called you anything. you challenged my comment saying "source please"
when a simple google search's first three hits were ALL national newspapers

you then question the 0.5% - but another simple google search provides the total Syrian migrant figure which you can divide your ISIS 4000 by.

personally, i;d say challenging people in that way rather than actually checking (let's face it) google does the work for you....is lazy

as regards your last comment...it's a little late (i think) as I've asked Barbara to remove my profile from the site - i've had a couple of months away from here - and i enjoyed it much more than coming back here....things here never change - people calling each other, TQ insulting people...and a plethora of keyboard warriors (P*****ani, for example) who when proved wrong stalk that person to the point of distraction. then there's other clowns who cite me as being from one USA city based on my avatar being Irish...despite it clearly showing my (dead) dad and brother's names underneath.

so yes, now i've asked Barbara to delete my profile, i'll leave it to her - if it goes it goes....and my 12 years+ here will be gone....i'm sure i can fill the "void" with something else.
bottom line? this place is full of lunatics, so the departure of one lunatic isn't going to deplete the madness in any way.