Radical Islamic terrorism finds its way to an Orlando nightclub

[QUOTE] [b]Costa86 wrote:[/b]

What you say - i.e. that terrorists are brown people who are different from us - is not what is supported by the mainstream media or by mainstream politicians. On the contrary, they want to persuade us that we are all alike - Muslims, Christians, etc. And yes, for the most part, we are alike. But right now, in 2016, the problem we have is in Muslims communities.

The mainstream media does not try to instill fear - it actually tries to hide the truth. Your points stands not, simply because it tallies not with the status quo of reporting and generally advertised opinion.[/QUOTE]

My guess is that you're not American and haven't watched FOX news lately, or ever.

If this isn't the case in Europe (or wherever you are), then how lucky you are.

American media (particularly FOX) run almost entirely on fear tactics. FOX is the propaganda wing of the Republican party. It's presented as a news network, but in reality it's the furthest possible thing from it 99% of the time. It's an opinion mouthpiece with an agenda, more than any major media source in the developed world.

[QUOTE] [b]The Real Wizard wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]Sebastian wrote:[/b]

Gun control, education and less privileges for ALL religions are the best ways to prevent these tragedies.[/QUOTE]

If only it were that simple.

Not taxing churches means they don't get a say in legislation.

We don't want the opposite.

The system we have now is the lesser of the two evils.
[/QUOTE]

I disagree.

Of course it's not simple but that'd be a step in the right direction IMO.

Taxing churches would increase money for education, which would decrease ignorance and, as a result, the power of religious groups.

Finally, there is an honorable mention of FOX news. In my opinion FOX news is the most dangerous hate inciting institution in this world. FOX news has slowly and systematically torn down all decency barriers in the US public in the last 20 years. In my opinion FOX news are more to blame for the state of the USA than anything else.

[QUOTE] [b]The Real Wizard wrote:[/b]

[QUOTE] [b]magicalfreddiemercury wrote:[/b]

This isn't about "radical islam". This is about incompetent, easily-bought politicians who are more concerned about appeasing the vocal minority and getting re-elected - and thus lining their pockets yet again - by voting down logical gun laws such as banning assault weapons and not allowing certain suspects or criminals to legally gain access to guns of any kind, let alone "AK15-style" weapons.
[/QUOTE]

It's actually both - plenty of media sources are saying he has ties to ISIS. [/QUOTE]

They've also said he was homophobic and misogynistic. He beat his wife. His former employer reported him to authorities due to disruptive and disturbing behaviors. He was questioned by the FBI - multiple times. Yet, this guy was able to get a job as a security guard and was able to stroll into any gun shop and take home an AK15. It's that freedom, the freedom to snatch up assault weapons at will, that allowed this to happen. Whatever prompted this guy to do it isn't the issue. Hate. Mental illness. Extremism. Whatever his motivation, the gun was his tool to carry it out and that's what we need to focus on.

[QUOTE] [b]The Real Wizard wrote:[/b]
What's most interesting about this is the countless Christians who taking a break from homophobia to pray for the families of the victims. [/QUOTE]

They're hypocrites, which should come as no surprise. Just this morning Paul Ryan (Speaker of the House of Representatives) held a moment of silence for the Orlando victims. Immediately afterward, it was business as usual, even with Democrats shouting "Where's the bill", referring to any bill regarding some common sense gun legislation. They were ignored by their catholic speaker who had just genuflected and said a silent prayer. Disgusting.

Samantha Bee covered a lot of what many of us are feeling -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t88X1pYQu-I

[QUOTE] [b]YourValentine wrote:[/b]

Finally, there is an honorable mention of FOX news. In my opinion FOX news is the most dangerous hate inciting institution in this world. FOX news has slowly and systematically torn down all decency barriers in the US public in the last 20 years. In my opinion FOX news are more to blame for the state of the USA than anything else.
[/QUOTE]

I agree, though I think what's worse is that there's an audience big enough to keep them going. It's the same crowd that turned The Donald into a presidential candidate. Absolutely terrifying.

1) Just because IS claims a terrorist attack it doesn't automatically mean they were really behind it. They will claim anything that suits them. Why? Because it's good propaganda for them, and it'll help scare westerners into thinking they're more powerful than they are. It's a common tactic among terrorist groups and has been for decades.

2) This mass-murderer was interested in radical Islamic thought, but that's not the end of the story. He also frequented gay clubs and online chatrooms and used a gay dating app. His ex-wife believed that he led a secret homosexual double-life. As usual, reality is more complicated than propaganda.

3) As for blaming "the muslims" - it is beyond me how anyone can fail to see how that is utterly racist as well as stupid. During World War II, America locked up all Japanese-Americans in camps, out of fear for 'fifth columnists'. In practice, it turned out, there were hardly ANY Japanese-Americans who were disloyal during World War II. After the war ended, this was a source of shame for the government. You'd have thought people would learn a lesson from that. Less than 0.1% of American muslims are even SUSPECTED of holding radicalized views. Does that mean the >99.9% who are INNOCENT should suffer for the guilty few? If that's what you believe, your beliefs are incompatible with the fundamental concept "rule of law", which entails both "innocent until proven guilty" AND "equality under the law". Should all white males ages 15-35 be permanently monitored and ostracized from society because they are BY FAR the largest group of culprits in shootings with multiple victims? Should all white men be considered potential child molesters, because the vast majority of child molesters are white men?

4) It is a proven fact that the discrimination of Muslims as a response to Islamic extremism DIRECTLY leads to the radicalization of young Muslim men and women who previously held no interest in extreme Islam. Why? Because it appears to confirm the propaganda of Islamic extremists that the west hates Muslims and wants to destroy them. British journalist Robert Verkaik recently published a well-received book, the result of years of study, showing how this attitude directly contributes to the radicalization process: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/feb/15/jihadi-john-making-of-terrorist-robert-verkaik-isis

5) A huge scare-mongering campaign by far-right, anti-democratic groups is going on, and has been going on for years. Donald Trump, Geert Wilders, Marine Le Pen, the Lega Nord, the Golden Dawn, these are all part of a resurgent neo-fascist current in Europe and America which uses misinformation to instill fear and undermine stability. They, too, directly contribute to radicalization by deliberately singling out Muslims and provoking them on the one hand, and by emphasizing that extremist Islamism is "the only true Islam" on the other. The problem of Islamic terrorism WILL NOT END unless this dark menace is tackled as well - they are not separate problems, but part of the same attack on democracy.

6) Anti-gay violence is not a "Muslim-problem", despite the way the far-right is spinning it now. In gay-tolerant Holland, where statistical research has been done into anti-gay sentiments for a number of years, last years' survey clearly showed that anti-gay sentiment among Muslim immigrants is just as high as under white Dutch men over 55. The supporters of the anti-Muslim 'Freedom Party' are the group of voters who hold the second most unfavorable view of gays, after the protestant-fundamentalist SGP, which officially wants to replace the Dutch constitution with Biblical law. Does that latter intention sound familiar? Exactly. It's the same damn thing as Islamic radicals wanting to impose Sharia-law, but because the SGP are Christians, it's supposedly not scary. Also, which group is responsible for most anti-gay VIOLENCE? White males, 18-35. Who engage in anti-gay hate-speech most? Football hooligans. Who are mostly 18-35 year old white males.

7) While Islamic terrorism is the most well-known kind of terrorism, it wasn't the most numerous or the most virulent kind of terrorism until the start of the Syrian civil war. Even so, most victims BY FAR are other muslims. Why don't we want to protect THOSE victims? Instead we BLAME THE VICTIMS. Does that sound familiar too? It's what the far-right propagandists, like FOX News, tell you the 'left' does.

I see a kind of fascism on the rise again in Europe and America, and I'm not alone. Has any of you ever spoken to people who lived through the Second World War? Because I can tell you for a fact that I know several people now in their late 80s who get chills from the similarities between current populist groups and the nazis. But you can't say that in public anymore, because any comparison to the nazis is taboo. Which means that anyone can latch on to nazi ideology with impunity, as Donald Trump has shamelessly done. Remember the Mussolini quotes? Expect more of them.

Each of you has a choice now. You can either support fascism or oppose it. But if, instead, you choose to deny that it is back, history WILL prove you wrong. And you are then likely to find yourself on the wrong side.

0.1%? Did Thomas get his "info" from "TOX" News?

[url=http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf[/url]

From page 142 of a 2013 Pew Research report:

"More than eight-in-ten American Muslims say suicide bombings and other forms of violence
against civilian targets are never justified (81%) or rarely justified (5%) to defend Islam from
its enemies. Worldwide, most Muslims also reject this type of violence, with a median of 72%
saying such attacks are never justified and 10% saying they are rarely justified. [b]Just 1% of U.S.
Muslims and a median of 3% of Muslims worldwide say suicide bombings and other violence
against civilian targets are often justified, while 7% of U.S. Muslims and a global median of 8%
of Muslims say such attacks are sometimes justified to defend Islam."[/b]

And that 1% who approve are all going to start killing? Nope. Nice try at lying with statistics, but even you're better at it than with this lazy attempt. But I'm glad you've come up with statistics that show a VAST majority, 92-97% of Muslims worldwide, condemning terrorist attacks. Let's not forget that roughly 5-10% of people in Europe also approve of the nazis, roughly the same percentage.

Muhammad Ali is gonna whoop on all of 'em who are doing these dastardly deeds.

[Yes, I know it is a simplification...but they are forewarned. Their nutsucks will shrink and be pummelled before they eff their promised 72 year old virgin.]

[QUOTE]

[b]thomasquinn 32989 wrote: [/b] And that 1% who approve are all going to start killing? Nope. Nice try at lying with statistics, but even you're better at it than with this lazy attempt. But I'm glad you've come up with statistics that show a VAST majority, 92-97% of Muslims worldwide, condemning terrorist attacks. Let's not forget that roughly 5-10% of people in Europe also approve of the nazis, roughly the same percentage.[/QUOTE]

Please comment on your dishonest 0.1% statistic.

Does The Neatherlands have any plans "adopting" any of Germany's excess refugees?

I think the excess number of young adult male refugees residing in Cologne would be perfect for Holland.

[QUOTE]

[b]dbl post[/b][/QUOTE]

I believe that various factors contributed to this catastrophy:

- apparently, the killer was a closet gay who could not come to terms with his sexual orientation coming from a very strict old fashioned Muslim Family. They say his father has his own YouTube channel and has links to the Taliban.

- the gun laws certainly made it very easy for him to own a legal semi-automatic assault weapon although he had been already in the focus of the FBI earlier.

Of course not every closet gay from conservative families becomes a mass murderer and not all Muslims have connections to the Taliban. Not all Americans who can buy assault weapons become mass killers, neither.

In my opinion the core of it all is hatred. In this specific case self-hatred might have been the biggest factor but hatred is the core of all this terrorism of our times. We all should work on fightihg this hatred and focus on humanism instead. We should really stop all this whataboutism that makes us blind for the danger that we might lose our freedom and civil rights in these days of terrorism. It does not help the victims when we point out that most crimes against gays in the Western world come from white males and it does not help when we point out that sexual offenses against women very often come from Muslim men, even from refugees whom we let into our countries to save their lives. We can only stop this spiral of hatred when we stand up for our civiiisation and demand tolerance and respect for our lifestye from everybody.

In the last 20 years we have allowed "political correctness" to dominate the social discourse to a point that we were actually unable to name a problem from fear of being called a racist. Right now we tend to fall into the other extreme and let hate speech dominate our public speeches and even vote for parties and people who champion this hate speech. We all must return to a civilised conversation.

Valid points, good post.

People blaming lack of gun control are simply looking for excuses not to blame Islam.
The killer had the intent to kill. Getting the gun was the easiest thing to do. If it was not readily available, he would have googled and learnt to assemble an IED. These guys are the US equivalent of suicide bombers from the middle east.

TQ - did you deliberately avoid mentioning the views expressed by the killer's devout muslim dad, because it runs contrary to the picture you are trying to paint?

Good points by YV.
From my observation, Americans seem very much capable (generally speaking) of differentiating the right from the wrong as far as they are judging fellow Americans or Westerners (Trump, Geert Wilders, Marine Le Pen etc). They are vocal about their criticism of these people. But when it comes to anything related to Islam, they start beating around the bush.

For instance, Mateen's disgust with homosexuality was due to what Islam says about homosexuality. The doctrine of Islam hates homosexuals, and the hadiths accord death as the punishment for homosexual acts, period. Why is it so difficult to accept this, instead of looking for all kinds of other justifications for his hate of gays? Even the guy's father himself admitted as much.

The politically incorrect statements of Trump and others is taken on face value and they are judged as bigots and such. Why can't the same be done for the terrorists, when they themselves claim they are doing what their religion teaches them to do? Why do have to, as the first thing, exonerate Islam of any short-comings?