Radical Islamic terrorism finds its way to an Orlando nightclub

Oscar J wrote:

Yeah, I figured it was something like that he meant. But I still feel like the thought of a potential terrorist with a sophisticated weapon, capable of killing more people, is more terrifying.

More terrifying than?

Sebastian wrote:

YourValentine wrote:

...you can protect yourself from getting shot by your own child by simply not owning a gun.

True. But you cannot protect your child from getting shot by other children if they (or their parents) can easily get guns, no questions asked.

There are a lot of situations you can't protect your children from. You can't prevent your child from being grabbed from the street and shoved into an SUV (ie kidnapped). Does that mean you would control SUV sales?

Law enforcement and punishments are there for a reason.

ParisNair wrote:

Oscar J wrote:

Yeah, I figured it was something like that he meant. But I still feel like the thought of a potential terrorist with a sophisticated weapon, capable of killing more people, is more terrifying.

More terrifying than?

Than one with a knife for example.

ParisNair wrote:

Then, yes it is a gun control issue, in my opinion too. But not the main reason. And mentioning gun control while completely discounting the main cause does not help in any way.

The main cause has not been completely discounted. The 'main cause' is still being investigated.

While so many immediately called this radical islamic terrorism, the fact is that there are other issues at work here. This guy had psychiatric/behavioral issues all the way back in his elementary school days - which, in the US, is anywhere from 4 to 10 or 11 years of age. In other words, the shooter had a history of mental instability. His third grade teacher said he was preoccupied with sex and was aggressive and angry. He threatened people in high school. He beat his first wife and harassed her. At that time, he was described as bipolar. His former employers noted irrational behaviors from him. This is all before the FBI ever got involved with him. He should never have been allowed to buy, own or use a gun by any legal means.

While he did indeed pledge allegiance to isis during the shooting, he also said he had connections to the Tsarnaev brothers and he had, in the past, claimed he was linked to al-qaeda and hezbollah. For a number of years now, US Homeland Security officials have warned about how terrorist groups could be attractive to the mentally handicapped. Those groups feed into insecurities and confusion in a twisted way that empowers, and that gives direction and an outlet for it all.

From reports so far, it appears that’s what happened here. This scumbag needed validation. He needed to belong to something big because he was that unstable. He was also, it seems, filled with self-hate for being gay (or bi) himself, which is the speculation now - that he had "gay tendencies", that he had frequented this particular club for the pleasure of it, that he had accounts with gay hook-up sites and had chatted up other gay men more than a few times. Self-loathing is a powerful force.

So, there are numerous issues at work here. To boil it down to terrorism is to, in my opinion, dismiss the whole of it. This man should never have been able to get hold of a military-style weapon. Not because of his religion - and trust me, I am no defender of religion – but because of his history of mental instability.

The cause has to be addressed at all levels and in honest ways. Radical islamic terrorism is a real thing and no one is denying it played a part in this attack. But it was not the main cause of it.

magicalfreddiemercury wrote:

ParisNair wrote:

The cause has to be addressed at all levels and in honest ways. Radical islamic terrorism is a real thing and no one is denying it played a part in this attack. But it was not the main cause of it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/troubled-quiet-macho-angry-the-volatile-life-of-omar-mateen/2016/06/17/15229250-34a6-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html

I am not sure why you are discounting the effect of radical islam.

He cheered while in classroom when the 2nd plane hit the twin towers ... almost 15 years earlier.

Panchgani wrote:

magicalfreddiemercury wrote:

ParisNair wrote:

The cause has to be addressed at all levels and in honest ways. Radical islamic terrorism is a real thing and no one is denying it played a part in this attack. But it was not the main cause of it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/troubled-quiet-macho-angry-the-volatile-life-of-omar-mateen/2016/06/17/15229250-34a6-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html

I am not sure why you are discounting the effect of radical islam.

He cheered while in classroom when the 2nd plane hit the twin towers ... almost 15 years earlier.

I'm not sure how saying "Radical islamic terrorism is a real thing and no one is denying it played a part in this attack." is the same as discounting the effect of radical islam.

I think we always make this big mistake in trying to find reasons why the killing has really nothing to do with us and our society. We avoid the crucial question why so much hatred can develop in one of the most advanced societies ever. It reminds me of the Columbine shooting or the massacre in Norway where a single person killed over 70 people from sheer hatred. In retrospect the killer was called a psychopath who had severe mental issues, he was called a Christian fundamentalist, anti-muslim, nationalist. The Columbine killers were labelled as depressive, sexually frustrated and mentally ill. But we cannot deny that they all came from the middle of our society - so where did all this hatred come from?

In the Omar Mateen case it is easy to see that the hatred came from his family who could not even refrain from name-calling the victims after the killing. I believe we have far too many people in our society who feel that their "values" (anti.gay sentiments, anti-abortion, anti- atheist, white supremacist, racist) are no longer represented in our modern society. The gap between ultra-conservatives and public opinion is becoming bigger and bigger. Too many people feel left behind with the changes and turn to nasty alternatives. Too many people use this frustration for their own purposes like Fox news or the tea party movement thus increasing the hatred. The worst thing imo is that in the aftermath of such a catastrophe people do not unite and ask the right questions but start blaming their favourite usual suspects.

magicalfreddiemercury wrote:
Democrats stood for 15 hours on the Senate floor yesterday detailing the effects of these weapons over the past years.

How much time did they spend addressing the motivation behind the killings, as admitted by the gun-man himself? How much time did they spend condemning the statements of the father of the killer?
If you are not aware of shit that came out of Mir Seddique's (Omar Mateen’s Father) mouth soon after the act, here is an example-
"God will punish those involved in homosexuality, not an issue that humans should deal with."

But you can ignore it. You want to point at everything else under the sun as the cause, but downplay the "main" cause.

ParisNair wrote:

magicalfreddiemercury wrote:
Democrats stood for 15 hours on the Senate floor yesterday detailing the effects of these weapons over the past years.

How much time did they spend addressing the motivation behind the killings, as admitted by the gun-man himself? How much time did they spend condemning the statements of the father of the killer?
If you are not aware of shit that came out of Mir Seddique's (Omar Mateen’s Father) mouth soon after the act, here is an example-
"God will punish those involved in homosexuality, not an issue that humans should deal with."

But you can ignore it. You want to point at everything else under the sun as the cause, but downplay the "main" cause.

I'm not sure if you're truly not getting what I've been saying or if you're purposely dismissing it. I have said, repeatedly, that there were multiple issues at play, including mental illness, hate, extremism, and ease of access to assault weapons. I have also said the motivation and means are separate entities and each/all have to be addressed. The Dems spent 15 hours demanding some action be taken regarding common-sense gun legislation so that at least some guns can become out of reach for some who intend to do harm - whether because they're mentally ill, filled with hate, radicalized or some other excuse. Those 15 hours did not stop one drone or one pair of boots on the ground or one attempt to cut funds to extremists in the "war on terror" which has been raging for 15 years, not 15 hours, and is showing no signs of (helping or) letting up. But, yes, let us all blame only one thing and ignore everything else because the world we live in is one-dimensional.

No, I understand exactly what you have said, and what I am doing is just pointing out that you still want to bring in every angle into the picture (you just did it again), but you (and others) refuse to highlight the main cause for what it is.

ParisNair - I think it's more a case of you highlighting what you think is the main cause, and discarding every other angle and aspect of it.

Oscar J wrote:

ParisNair - I think it's more a case of you highlighting what you think is the main cause, and discarding every other angle and aspect of it.

My thoughts exactly, only you expressed them much more succinctly than I would have.

Yeah Paris - git with da program. It is not radical islamic terrorism it is those damn ultra-conservitives ... or it is because he was fat and bullied as a child.

Anti-US radical islamic terrorism in the US is a myth perpetrated by ultra-conservatives and Fox News:

December 2015: Syed Farook and Tashfeen Malik, a married Pakistani couple, stormed a San Bernardino County government building with combat gear and rifles and opened fire on about 80 employees enjoying an office Christmas party. They killed 14 after pledging loyalty to ISIS. A third Muslim was charged with helping buy weapons.

July 2015: Mohammad Abdulazeez opened fire on a military recruiting center and US Navy Reserve center in Chattanooga, Tenn., where he shot to death four Marines and a sailor. Obama refused to call it terrorism.

May 2015: ISIS-directed Muslims Nadir Soofi and Elton Simpson opened fire on the Curtis Culwell Center in Garland, Texas, shooting a security guard before police took them down.

April 2013: Dzhokhar and Tamerlan Tsarnaev, Muslim brothers from Chechnya, exploded a pair of pressure-cooker bombs at the Boston Marathon, killing three and wounding more than 260. At least 17 people lost limbs from the shrapnel.

September 2012: Terrorists with al Qaeda in the Maghreb attacked the US Consulate in Benghazi, Libya, killing the US ambassador, a US Foreign Service officer and two CIA contractors. Obama and then-Secretary of State Clinton misled the American people, blaming the attack on an anti-Muslim video.

November 2009: Army Maj. Nidal Hasan opened fire on fellow soldiers at Fort Hood, Texas, killing 13. Obama ruled it “workplace violence,” even though Hasan was in contact with an al Qaeda leader before the strikes and praised Allah as he mowed down troops.

June 2009: Al Qaeda-trained Abdulhakim Muhammad opened fire on an Army recruiting office in Little Rock, Ark., killing Pvt. William Long and wounding Pvt. Quinton Ezeagwula.

magicalfreddiemercury wrote:

Oscar J wrote:

ParisNair - I think it's more a case of you highlighting what you think is the main cause, and discarding every other angle and aspect of it.

My thoughts exactly, only you expressed them much more succinctly than I would have.

Yes and no. I do think Islamic radicalism is the main cause behind what Mateen did. But I did not dream it up; I base it on the words and actions of Mateen himself.
I do not discount any of the other angles to the story. But main reason is main reason, and I don't see you folks emphasizing it enough. And I understand the reason also. You are so pre-occupied with being decent and politically correct, that you don't want to offend Muslims beyond a certain limit, and don't want to be seen as Islamophobic etc.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClHIZg6WYAEEm6d.jpg

I think you raise an important issue here, ParisNair: refusing to mention the big elephant in the room because of fear to be called a racist. The worst example of it is the case of mass rape and child abuse in Rotherham,England. The whole society is suffering from a lack of self confidence.and common decency. We question our outrage when it is caused by some sort of minority. This opens the door for all kinds of other extremists, racists and right-wing. We need to find the common ground again. Otherwise we allow the society to be split into extremists, We can already watch that in the USA and Europe.