Thanks Thor and Villiers
To be honest, as I said, I don't have an opinion either way on Mary. I'm listening carefully to you Thor because you were there, and you knew her, I've listened also to Phoebe, Jim in his book, and Villiers you may well have met some of the people directly involved with Mary at conventions, so I'm listening to you too.
I'm reserving judgement because a lot of the criticisms I see thrown at Mary on the net are by people who have an interest in seeing her the way they want, Villiers a bit like what you said about those crazy women, only it's a different kind of crazy. It's people making up a whole story about her on a few snippets of information (that could be interpreted in a number of different ways). Those people who have not met her have no gut instincts on her or valuable impression, that comes from a face to face meeting (though I take Thor's point that you can form an impression by what's not done, as well as what is, and I think those impressions are valuable and a big part of the Freddie story, but I'm worried that some of the anti Mary sentiment out there, that's based on people's own personal projections only, not real information of what was going on, will skew the picture)
I'm equally suspicious of those who think Mary is wonderful and have all the projections of the perfect heterosexual relationship, because it serves their own fantasies.
Re the pregnancy thing, Thor, I didn't intend for it to play a big role. I personally don't know if every pregnancy is different, I don't have kids. I think it is listed as a major life stressor, along with grief, and I was really just throwing it in as another factor that was impinging on her at that time. Not just pregnancy but after the birth there is the risk of post natal depression. It's an incredibly fragile time (and that's in women without a famous friend, a huge legacy left to them, the paparazzi focussed on them, and loss of a significant other, not to mention what other relationship issues she may have been dealing with). Losing someone who was possibly a soul mate, a previous partner, someone who was essentially part of your own life, who you grew up with, I don't think it can be underestimated. There is nothing left to hold onto. And I say the same for poor Jim on this score too.
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Posts in chronological order
People are changing over time.
Maybe Mary was hoping that she would be with Freddie again one day.Perhaps she thought Freddie would not achieve emotional and physical closeness and love with some man.
And then Jim appeared.
Freddie and Jim obviously had a deep and sincere love relationship which has been getting deeper and stronger over the years.They were partners, they could talk about everything, to be with each other in good and bad.I think that was perfectly clear to her that she no longer has the chance to be with him whatever she did.
Even when he got sick, even when Freddie and Jim could no longer be lovers in the full sense of the word, he chose to stay with Jim. Why?
It's strange to me that many people still claim that he loved her and not loved Jim.Why then did she and he have not been together, what prevented them if they were most important to each other and were in love?I think that was clear who was his true love and whose support he needed most in difficult days.
I can understand that Mary was jealous, we are all human beings.But I can't understand that she has behaved so towards them even though Jim,Joe and Peter have been with him for years.
The fact is that she has gained most of the wealth but as I said before, love and money are not the same.
And here's Freddie's own words about his relationship with Jim from interview 1987 : "I'm really very happy with my relationship at the moment, and I couldn't really ask for better. I finally found a...niche that I was looking for all my life. And no fucker in this universe is going to upset it".
I don't understand his fans who still don't accept that Freddie was gay.
I don't see what the problem is with this, why they love the picture about him created with the help of journalists, but not the truth.
It was just my opinion.
All right, I stop.Sorry.
Maybe Mary was hoping that she would be with Freddie again one day.Perhaps she thought Freddie would not achieve emotional and physical closeness and love with some man.
And then Jim appeared.
Freddie and Jim obviously had a deep and sincere love relationship which has been getting deeper and stronger over the years.They were partners, they could talk about everything, to be with each other in good and bad.I think that was perfectly clear to her that she no longer has the chance to be with him whatever she did.
Even when he got sick, even when Freddie and Jim could no longer be lovers in the full sense of the word, he chose to stay with Jim. Why?
It's strange to me that many people still claim that he loved her and not loved Jim.Why then did she and he have not been together, what prevented them if they were most important to each other and were in love?I think that was clear who was his true love and whose support he needed most in difficult days.
I can understand that Mary was jealous, we are all human beings.But I can't understand that she has behaved so towards them even though Jim,Joe and Peter have been with him for years.
The fact is that she has gained most of the wealth but as I said before, love and money are not the same.
And here's Freddie's own words about his relationship with Jim from interview 1987 : "I'm really very happy with my relationship at the moment, and I couldn't really ask for better. I finally found a...niche that I was looking for all my life. And no fucker in this universe is going to upset it".
I don't understand his fans who still don't accept that Freddie was gay.
I don't see what the problem is with this, why they love the picture about him created with the help of journalists, but not the truth.
It was just my opinion.
All right, I stop.Sorry.
I hate making this thread about Mary, so I will stop after this comment, I promise. I agree with all Invisible Woman said above. I believe she was threatened by Jim - remember Jim's claims of her cold behaviour when Jim and Freddie nearly broke up. Jim felt a frosty atmosphere from her, then she coldly delivered the message to Jim that he would no longer be allowed the use of his own car if he moved out! The next day, Freddie came to him, not actually wanting him to leave and it makes me wonder if she had something to do with it. Nearly everything I've read about her, save being loyal to Freddie points to her not being very nice at all. Even her own interviews sound ungrateful; she has beef with the band, his parents and his friends.
The father of her children, Piers decided to opt out of her life in late 1991 and you have to wonder why. If the pregnant mother of my child was about to inherit millions, I'd stick around, both for my kids and the money (lol) but the fact Piers didn't suggests something is wrong with Mary. The fact he went to live with a friend of Phoebe's and stayed in contact with him rather than Mary speaks volumes. (Source: Peter's book)
She admitted Piers couldn't cope with her obsession with Freddie and she had to be alone in her grief. Fair enough. Totally understandable. But by his first death anniversary, she had managed to find herself a new and wealthy husband despite having a tiny baby that same year. How did she manage to go out on the pull when so full of grief and having two very young children? Nick also left her in 2003. Yes I am being a cynical bitch, but Mary is money focused and she has the nerve to call all his gay friends gold diggers. That's why many fans cannot abide her.
I think she is a hard-faced woman who puts on a sweet saintly exterior in which she make it seem like she sacrificed her own happiness for his.
I mentioned something else in another thread about her conflicts with the neighbours in the street too: http://www.queenzone.com/forums/1484477/whats-going-on-with-garden-lodge.aspx
I haven't met her, but I've seen her in the flesh. A neighbour opposite said hello to her and was met with an icy nod, they probably think she's the Ice Queen of Logan Place haha.
That's it: I'm all Mary'd out!
The father of her children, Piers decided to opt out of her life in late 1991 and you have to wonder why. If the pregnant mother of my child was about to inherit millions, I'd stick around, both for my kids and the money (lol) but the fact Piers didn't suggests something is wrong with Mary. The fact he went to live with a friend of Phoebe's and stayed in contact with him rather than Mary speaks volumes. (Source: Peter's book)
She admitted Piers couldn't cope with her obsession with Freddie and she had to be alone in her grief. Fair enough. Totally understandable. But by his first death anniversary, she had managed to find herself a new and wealthy husband despite having a tiny baby that same year. How did she manage to go out on the pull when so full of grief and having two very young children? Nick also left her in 2003. Yes I am being a cynical bitch, but Mary is money focused and she has the nerve to call all his gay friends gold diggers. That's why many fans cannot abide her.
I think she is a hard-faced woman who puts on a sweet saintly exterior in which she make it seem like she sacrificed her own happiness for his.
I mentioned something else in another thread about her conflicts with the neighbours in the street too: http://www.queenzone.com/forums/1484477/whats-going-on-with-garden-lodge.aspx
I haven't met her, but I've seen her in the flesh. A neighbour opposite said hello to her and was met with an icy nod, they probably think she's the Ice Queen of Logan Place haha.
That's it: I'm all Mary'd out!
Agree Captainjory, this thread shouldn't stay about Mary.
As an afterthought, I think I might have sounded sensitive only to Mary's grief, and I apologise for that. I think EVERYONE'S grief was important. Everyone loved Freddie, all in different ways and he them.
As an afterthought, I think I might have sounded sensitive only to Mary's grief, and I apologise for that. I think EVERYONE'S grief was important. Everyone loved Freddie, all in different ways and he them.
I've been enthralled with this Mary conversation. I find it fascinating!
Amusing FREDDIE nugget-
The time we flew to London in the Concorde, about 1986 or 87. Freddie was anxious
to meet Brandon, my boyfriend of 2 years at that time (later a total of 7 years). Brandon
was a little nervous about meeting him. Well, 30 minutes into the first meeting he
pulled Brandon off to the side and said, "I've never seen Thor like this before...come tell
Mother EVERYTHING!" He was won over with Freddie's warmth within 45 minutes of
meeting him and really enjoyed his private conversation with Freddie. Brandon later
said.."he was so nice to me and completely down to earth, not what I expected at all."
The time we flew to London in the Concorde, about 1986 or 87. Freddie was anxious
to meet Brandon, my boyfriend of 2 years at that time (later a total of 7 years). Brandon
was a little nervous about meeting him. Well, 30 minutes into the first meeting he
pulled Brandon off to the side and said, "I've never seen Thor like this before...come tell
Mother EVERYTHING!" He was won over with Freddie's warmth within 45 minutes of
meeting him and really enjoyed his private conversation with Freddie. Brandon later
said.."he was so nice to me and completely down to earth, not what I expected at all."
Hi Everyone,
People don't usually have much to do with an ex-partner's current lover, let along interact with them on an almost a daily basis. (I guarantee that would not have happened if Freddie was straight and Jim was a woman) The situation with Mary and Jim was fairly unique, the old rules don't apply...so they would have had to figure things out as they went along. Now complicate the situation by having the "sun" in their universe be a world famous wealthy rock star who is dying from a disease that they can't talk about. Nothing easy about that for anyone.
Most of Jim's years with Freddie were spent with Freddie being sick, so by necessity, it impacted the dynamic between Mary and Jim. During that time they more or less had to act with a common purpose. Who knows what Mary's role would have been if Freddie had been healthy and pursued a long term relationship with Jim?
@ Invisible Woman, I listened to the interview you mentioned where Freddie talks about finding a "niche". My first reaction to hearing that statement was that Freddie found someone that he liked and was very comfortable with, but his words didn't strike me as those of someone who was deeply in love. It sounded kind of clinical. But then I can be completely wrong. I do think it is possible, and maybe likely, that Mary hoped that things might be different some day. I watched an interview with Peter Freestone...I forget what the specific question was, but his response was that he is living with the past, but that Mary was living in the past. Very telling observation on his part. If true, it made me feel sad for her.
I don't think Mary came across bad in any taped interviews....the Daily Mail interview...well, the print media is not always know for accurately conveying tone or meaning. I will reserve judgement on that one.
I guess we all have points of view that are influenced by our individual experiences and personalities. It's interesting to try and recognize any biases we might bring to the table. This is a small point on my part, but I'm sure it plays a role in how I see Mary. Although I cannot relate to her life, I can relate to her personality. Having always been on the quiet and shy side...someone who likes to remain in the background especially when in a large group of people or with people I do not know well, I completely understand that part of her. Unfortunately, that personality trait can also come across as being unfriendly or at best, reserved, when it is really a matter of tying to avoid being uncomfortable. I'm certainly not saying that every decision Mary has made or thing she has said is due to being shy, but it does influence how I see her. Just trying to be honest.
People don't usually have much to do with an ex-partner's current lover, let along interact with them on an almost a daily basis. (I guarantee that would not have happened if Freddie was straight and Jim was a woman) The situation with Mary and Jim was fairly unique, the old rules don't apply...so they would have had to figure things out as they went along. Now complicate the situation by having the "sun" in their universe be a world famous wealthy rock star who is dying from a disease that they can't talk about. Nothing easy about that for anyone.
Most of Jim's years with Freddie were spent with Freddie being sick, so by necessity, it impacted the dynamic between Mary and Jim. During that time they more or less had to act with a common purpose. Who knows what Mary's role would have been if Freddie had been healthy and pursued a long term relationship with Jim?
@ Invisible Woman, I listened to the interview you mentioned where Freddie talks about finding a "niche". My first reaction to hearing that statement was that Freddie found someone that he liked and was very comfortable with, but his words didn't strike me as those of someone who was deeply in love. It sounded kind of clinical. But then I can be completely wrong. I do think it is possible, and maybe likely, that Mary hoped that things might be different some day. I watched an interview with Peter Freestone...I forget what the specific question was, but his response was that he is living with the past, but that Mary was living in the past. Very telling observation on his part. If true, it made me feel sad for her.
I don't think Mary came across bad in any taped interviews....the Daily Mail interview...well, the print media is not always know for accurately conveying tone or meaning. I will reserve judgement on that one.
I guess we all have points of view that are influenced by our individual experiences and personalities. It's interesting to try and recognize any biases we might bring to the table. This is a small point on my part, but I'm sure it plays a role in how I see Mary. Although I cannot relate to her life, I can relate to her personality. Having always been on the quiet and shy side...someone who likes to remain in the background especially when in a large group of people or with people I do not know well, I completely understand that part of her. Unfortunately, that personality trait can also come across as being unfriendly or at best, reserved, when it is really a matter of tying to avoid being uncomfortable. I'm certainly not saying that every decision Mary has made or thing she has said is due to being shy, but it does influence how I see her. Just trying to be honest.
@ Thor,
Of all the aspects of Freddie's personality that could be explored for this upcoming movie, I hope they shine a light on the fact that he was a warm, caring, and down to earth person. I bet that is what most people who are not Freddie fans do not realize about him. Thanks for that golden nugget. Those are the kinds of stories I love to hear!
Of all the aspects of Freddie's personality that could be explored for this upcoming movie, I hope they shine a light on the fact that he was a warm, caring, and down to earth person. I bet that is what most people who are not Freddie fans do not realize about him. Thanks for that golden nugget. Those are the kinds of stories I love to hear!
thundergod wrote:
Amusing FREDDIE nugget-
The time we flew to London in the Concorde, about 1986 or 87. Freddie was anxious
to meet Brandon, my boyfriend of 2 years at that time (later a total of 7 years). Brandon
was a little nervous about meeting him. Well, 30 minutes into the first meeting he
pulled Brandon off to the side and said, "I've never seen Thor like this before...come tell
Mother EVERYTHING!" He was won over with Freddie's warmth within 45 minutes of
meeting him and really enjoyed his private conversation with Freddie. Brandon later
said.."he was so nice to me and completely down to earth, not what I expected at all."
I love hearing that he could be down to earth!
That he referred to himself as mother really makes me laugh; it's so camp and kind of cute.
Further to what we were talking about Re: gay men, most gay men I know have attempted relationships with a female at some point. Obviously we know Freddie did this, twice. Has that been your general experience with the gay men you know/knew? Have you?
Also another random and slightly pointless question: what did you think when Freddie shaved his moustache off? Did you like the new look? lol
Can it not be possible that Freddie shared a fantastic relationship with 2 people? A sexual one with Jim, and a non-sexual, best friend, someone to rely on kind of relationship with Mary? Both very important in his life? Why should it have to be one or the other?
I have a very good friend (we are both straight women in our 30s). We've been there for each other through so much. She is someone I trust over almost everybody else. Yet, sex with her - eewwww! And she feels exactly the same way.
So could not Mary be the one person in Freddie's life who was always there for him (no matter how horrid she may be to others, Freddie loved her (non-sexually) for what she was in HIS life - as he has mentioned in many interviews that he did not need any friends because he had Mary.
The most important thing about their relationship (non-sexual. I keep repeating that so nobody thinks I am even remotely saying that Freddie was not gay.) is that Freddie trusted her with what was most important to him. Himself! He entrusted Mary with his ashes. The only remains of himself. And made her promise not to tell anybody else where their final resting place would be. That speaks of the degree of love (non sexual) and trust that Freddie felt for Mary.
So, let's trust Freddie's judgement of Mary (he knew he was dying and had ample time to change his will as well as his wishes about his remains) and not keep making our own. Let's just understand that Jim and Mary both played different and important part in Freddie's lives.
My 2 cents.
I have a very good friend (we are both straight women in our 30s). We've been there for each other through so much. She is someone I trust over almost everybody else. Yet, sex with her - eewwww! And she feels exactly the same way.
So could not Mary be the one person in Freddie's life who was always there for him (no matter how horrid she may be to others, Freddie loved her (non-sexually) for what she was in HIS life - as he has mentioned in many interviews that he did not need any friends because he had Mary.
The most important thing about their relationship (non-sexual. I keep repeating that so nobody thinks I am even remotely saying that Freddie was not gay.) is that Freddie trusted her with what was most important to him. Himself! He entrusted Mary with his ashes. The only remains of himself. And made her promise not to tell anybody else where their final resting place would be. That speaks of the degree of love (non sexual) and trust that Freddie felt for Mary.
So, let's trust Freddie's judgement of Mary (he knew he was dying and had ample time to change his will as well as his wishes about his remains) and not keep making our own. Let's just understand that Jim and Mary both played different and important part in Freddie's lives.
My 2 cents.
Lots of salient points, Rainbow.
I still think the most striking observation Thor has made was of Peter Straker. The whole "British royalty" looking down on the " American commoners" brilliantly conveyed it. That's a communication bullseye that let's us know exactly the vibe he gave off.
Similarly, Jim Hutton's first impression of Paul Prenter and his eye movements always stuck with me.
I still think the most striking observation Thor has made was of Peter Straker. The whole "British royalty" looking down on the " American commoners" brilliantly conveyed it. That's a communication bullseye that let's us know exactly the vibe he gave off.
Similarly, Jim Hutton's first impression of Paul Prenter and his eye movements always stuck with me.
This just made my day. What a kind-hearted and warm man, such a delight to have around!
thundergod wrote:
Amusing FREDDIE nugget-
The time we flew to London in the Concorde, about 1986 or 87. Freddie was anxious
to meet Brandon, my boyfriend of 2 years at that time (later a total of 7 years). Brandon
was a little nervous about meeting him. Well, 30 minutes into the first meeting he
pulled Brandon off to the side and said, "I've never seen Thor like this before...come tell
Mother EVERYTHING!" He was won over with Freddie's warmth within 45 minutes of
meeting him and really enjoyed his private conversation with Freddie. Brandon later
said.."he was so nice to me and completely down to earth, not what I expected at all."
Noorie: Yes of course he could. This comments exchange isn't about Mary versus Jim at all though; it was about our opinions of Mary being confirmed by Thor and the underlying homophobia in the fandom.
PrimeJiveUSA wrote:
Lots of salient points, Rainbow.
I still think the most striking observation Thor has made was of Peter Straker. The whole "British royalty" looking down on the " American commoners" brilliantly conveyed it. That's a communication bullseye that let's us know exactly the vibe he gave off.
Similarly, Jim Hutton's first impression of Paul Prenter and his eye movements always stuck with me.
I've also had that impression of Straker lol just from his interviews about Freddie; he always makes it about shows he was doing and not Freddie's story.
And Prenter. Something about the eyes!
I'm a British person, but Freddie's American friends seem more fun and less uppity!
WOW...I love reading everyone's comments. You QueenZoners have really
sparked treasured memories and have given me so much information that
I did not know. The discussions have become very lively and important. I love it!
Thank you all!
sparked treasured memories and have given me so much information that
I did not know. The discussions have become very lively and important. I love it!
Thank you all!