"I feel the way the book is written in parts doesn't help. It annoying that JIm tells us an important part regarding Freddie's treatment of him and then doesn't explain it fully. To me it reads 'we had a row, we made up, and then the story changes direction. I would have liked him to explore his/ their feelings following the big row; why it happened and how Jim felt and if possible Freddie's explanation of why he did it.
When Freddie chucked him out because he didn't come home , well this was such double standards. Jim had from his POV seen another man leave Freddie's flat and yet this was totally disregarded following Freddie's decision to ask him to leave. Again I feel we needed more explanation of how this resolved this."
Well, the book was written by a man :) Even it was a gay man, I feel that men simply don´t examine and analyse situations and feelings in that depth. That is what women do (of course there are exceptions, it´s a big generalisation). And I think also the book didn´t have this aspiration. It was a simple description of his life with Freddie, not an analysis of their love. And we definitely don´t have enough information about their feelings.
I think (and again, this can be far from true, it´s just my assumption), that Jim´s character was an opposite to Freddie´s which helped in lots of situations. Freddie was temperamental, Jim flegmatic (generalisation again!). So I can imagine in lots of situation when Freddie would be moody and nasty, he would say "ok, he has his moody time again, let´s wait until it´s over and don´t take it to heart" - that´t the thing David Minns wasn´t capable of and a lot of his other lovers reacted exactly how Freddie wanted them to react and lead the row to the extreme and nasty incidents. You need a very strong personality NOT to react and say "ok, come later when you cool down I won´t speak to you until then".
The second thing is Freddie rejected people so they couldn´t reject him and pushed the situation to extreme to test their limits. I think Phoebe mentioned it, that he expected to be turned down /not sure if I use a good word for it/ by his lover and he was rather surprised when it didn´t happen. He literally expected he will suffer at some point. It is quite sad but on the other hand, ce created a lot of situation by himself when things were nice for too long.
I whink that David Minns´ and Jim Hutton´s book together bring a good picture of Freddie´s character in terms of love. On the other side, I´m sure, he was wonderful and very very easy to handle when he was in the right mood. A man of extremes. You need someone very special to stand this. Glad he found Jim at the end.
I understand Jim. He wasn't with Freddie because of his fame, money or big house, he was with him because of love. That's why he always agreed to go when Freddie said that. Jim wasn't the person who would be begging Freddie to be with him. I think Freddie also understood that he must to change his habits if wanted to be with Jim. And obviously Freddie wanted to be with Jim.
About second evict I said already in Thor and Lee's thread I think Freddie tried to distance Jim from himself, tried to release him because he was aware that the disease progressed.
However, he later told Jim that he could continue to work in Garden Lodge. This is evidence that Freddie was thinking about him and his situation. Probably also is the proof of his love for Jim, when he considered about it, he realized that it would be very difficult for him to see Jim no longer everyday. But he couldn't see Jim only as a friend or worker, they could be only partners and lovers. As far as I realized, Jim didn't leave the house, Freddie stopped him when he learned Jim had found the flat.
Maybe I'm such a romantic but this is my view about it.
From what other people have said about Jim, phlegmatic is how I would best describe him. He seemed to be down to earth, calm, quiet and not affected by Freddie's fame. I'm not sure if he fits into the socially awkward bracket, although I obviously didn't know him , I just think he was quiet and calm by nature. Everything I have found about him is always positive.
Thank you, you have explained it from a point of view that makes a lot sense.
I agree that David and Jim's books bring a good picture of Freddie in terms of love. He did describe himself as a man of extremes . If you listen to the 1987 David Wigg interview he talks about having to change for them . Maybe that is what made a difference to Freddie and Jim.
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, I wanted a kind of genuine tranquil after the storm, and I think most of my, everybody expects me to have stormy relationships (David: yes) you know, and I was virtually, er, living my own media, as it were, where I actually thought, and in, in fact you get caught up in it, so I actually thought that was the way I should be, and so I was trying to force people to have a relationship with me in that way and I realise that it's so easy I thought I have to change for them, you know, it's quite easy, or, you can have a relationship without, without sort of harping on about every topic or whatever, it's quite easy. But finding that, that wonderful person is very hard
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Gosh he is such an interesting man and so hard to work out at times. If there is an afterlife I would like to find him and have a good chat.
I am glad he found Jim at the end, maybe it was fate :)
Invisible women I like your way of thinking.
I have seen many of your posts and I have seen how much you love Jim and Freddie's relationship. I am a romantic so I like to think they loved each other. We know Jim loved Freddie with all his heart.
Hello all,
I've never posted on this forum before but I use to read some threads that I find interesting from time to time. I found this thread and I usually never join in because I'm a bit shy and I don't think I have much to say. But I've seen you mentioning David Minns book so I thought I could give my opinion since I found it really interesting and seems like it offers a different perspective of Freddie that's rarely discussed . It's just my thoughts on the book if you're interested in reading it and for those who hadn't read it yet, there'll be spoilers, lol.
There are two different versions of this book. The second one is the one that includes a whole chapter writen by Minns about his relationship with Freddie. He tells how they met; how it started when Freddie was living with Mary some time around 1975 ; how he spent the nights with David at the flat David shared with David Evans; how they shared their own a flat later on, as he came out to Mary. He also tells (more extensively) about the wrong side of the relationship. How much they argued and fought, how he resented when Freddie brought Mary to places instead of him, he explains how Freddie's increasing fame affected them and how hurt he felt because Freddie, apparently, was messing around with him and had found Joe Fanelli when on tour for America.
He also describes a side of Freddie not so kind but rather cruel.
When I read the book I kept in mind that David is the author of that chapter, and that's important because he focuses on HIS OWN FEELINGS AND THOUGHTS about the things that happened and how it all affected him, so I wasn't alarmed to find out that he talks about himself too(wich he obviously do, all through the chapter. It's HIS story what he is telling, not just Freddie's )
I just want to make clear that I completely understand and feel for David and I don't judge him bad for writing those things (Why should I?) . I don't think he lied or wanted to "tarnish" Freddie's reputation like some people think.
BUT having said that, I didn't take all he said as a "Bible" of what is the absolute truth or the facts, because every person has a different view of the same story and what he tells is HIS side of it (a very valid side and surely honest with himself, but not the integral vision of the relationship, NOT THE ENTIRE PERSPECTIVE as he is no God and he can't read minds or be everywhere). He knew how HE felt himself and how he lived it, but sometimes, and maybe this is an unpopular opinion, he falters a little to recognise the fact that Freddie may had had suffered a great deal as well.
Freddie may had been a tease and may had liked to push David as to see what he could get from him or even to proof something to himself, but I'm sure he LOVED HIM and I don't think he ever wanted to hurt David on purpose or make him suffer.
I've learnt not to judge anybody by their actions before listening their story first, so I won't judge if what Freddie did was right or wrong. I have my thoughts on it, but I'd never judge him. I am in my last year of psychology (Psycology was not my first choice, I changed the subject when I understood I didn't want to become veterinarian. I find the education system forced us to make decisions too early) and partaking in group therapies you learn to listen without any judgement because everybody has a different background, everybody has experiences in life that make them act in some ways that maybe you would find weird or wrong.
Another thing I learnt, especially when it comes to relationship/conjugal problems, is that none of the parts involved would never tell the story of their relationship in an absolutely objective way. It could seem very obvious, but many times that's not because they are lying, but because there are too many feelings involved and their side of the story will tend to be filtered by all the emotions they felt towards the partner or the thoughts they had when some events during the relationship happened. And the bad stays with you longer (if not forever) than the good. And if the story ended badly, the bad tends to overshadow the rest.
That's why, when David and Freddie split up, David said he didn't even want to listen to Queen music or hear anything about Freddie, he was bitter, and probably Freddie was bitter too, and however much they reunited again, that sense of bitterness never leaves.
The best way to understand a little bit better what happened is through a third person. Someone who was close enough to them, who was there with them and knew them well. I think it's impossible to find somebody who was there ALL THE TIME and in every fight, but the most close I'd say it would be David Evans, who lived with them and knew them both (maybe was more close to Minns, but loved them both I guess).
And from what he says at the very begining of the chapter, he doesn't take part for one or the other. He kind of understands both of them and asks the reader not to judge any of them.
Thinking of it... If Freddie had been that cruel and careless to David, Was his best friend Evans going to publish a book (the first version) that it's just a compilation of stories about people telling all good things about Freddie? Would he himself describe Freddie as a kind, generous and thoughtful person? Of course Evans also admits Freddie's complicated nature and that he loved having him as a friend but would never had wanted Freddie as a boyfriend. Well, who could blame him? Freddie was not an easy person. Freddie himself admited that on more than one occasion. He always said he wasn't a good partner for anybody and that he seemed to drain or destroy people and push them away somehow.
I think he felt he sent away the good people from him and seemed to attract the bad. I think that's also partly because he was a drama seeker.
But Evans says he was 99% of the time funny and kind except when he had a sudden depressive mood or a tantrum. And also that Freddie remembered past incidents he thought had been forgoten, so I don't think he was careless, maybe just immature at one point.
I found that David Minns assumed so much regarding what Freddie did or felt. Things that David might not exactly know but were just what he felt or figured at that time and he wrote them as almost facts. For exemple:
He reckoned in the book a very difficult time when he took an overdose. It was apparently caused because he felt deeply hurt when Freddie brought Joe to their lives (And, I guess, some other things as well. They were really struggling in their relationship and their life was a frantic chaos at that time).
Well, he tells that he was hospitalized and that Freddie was fixing his hair while that was happening, as to say that Freddie didn't give a shit. BUT at that time without mobile phones or anything, how could he know what was Freddie doing or if he already knew what had happened? And if David knew it for sure, he doesn't explain it.
The fact that he expressed it like that made him appear bitter and deeply hurt.Of course, I empatishe with him, but I can't help but ask to myself what Freddie felt.
Their relationship was almost wrecked, their arguments were awful and he already knew Joe was in the middle of it (for some odd reasons they had hang out together sometimes. And I don't buy it was just Freddie's fault and thoughtlessness if both, David and Joe, consented it. They were adults and not stupid). David didn't know what coud be the reasons for Freddie taking distance on that incident or what he felt, he just assumed he didn't care about him. Which is really unlike Freddie, based on how supposedly he loved David and what all his friends say about him.
One can be a completely shit sometimes but you don't turn into a cruel careless bitch for no reason from one day to the other. He could have been feeling many things:
1.Fear, he could fear that David didn't want to see him. They had had a very nasty fight and it
My message got cut out... I think it was too long. I'll try to post the part that's missing...
1.Fear, he could fear that David didn't want to see him. They had had a very nasty fight and it maybe made Freddie feel guilty and unsure of what David's reaction could be.
David tended to run away when they fought so maybe Freddie understood he'd want to be left alone or even didn't want to see him anymore. Maybe he was scared and reacted just running away from the problems because he hated the confrontation.
He probably hoped time would heal the wounds (which may be a coward way out, but not everybody face the problems in the same way. Some people just want to forget about bad things as a self-defence mechanism).
He could also fear David had done that as a way of blakmail or something to call his attention because their relationship was crumbling. WE REALLY DON'T KNOW what he thought or what happened entirely.
2. Confusion. Taking an overdose is such a drastic thing to do and very serious. Many people close to David could have felt disoriented or taken aback, not knowing how to procede or not understanding the reason for him to do such heavy thing (And it was the 70s, depression was not that deep in public consciousness as a really serious illness, and for some groups of society, a suicide attempt was something to be frowned upon. We can't look at it through the same optic we see it today).
And if you take into account the reasons why David did it. How could one feel if a boyfriend you're almost in the verge of breaking with did something like that? It could be quite overwhelming.
It would have been very different if their relationship was healthy and the reasons for taking the overdose were alien to the couple interaction, or if his partner had been able to help him or comfort him in some way. But in this case, Freddie probably felt helpless, in a very strage position or even maybe upset about what David had done.
Maybe Freddie didn't understand why or how could David had done something like that. Probably it all came as a shock to him and felt confronted about the situation.
A suicidal attempt its not usually a sudden thing, it comes from repeated suicidal thoughts, something that rolls in your mind for quite a bit and it manifests in your mood and your behaviour. You expect some symptoms, maybe David wasn't expressing his feelings or Freddie didn't get the clues. Maybe it was just a call for attention, which sadly happens many times.
It wasn't only Freddie who needed attention. David probably felt more and more detached from him as Freddie's success was blossoming. At the begining of the relationship, it was Freddie who fought to get David to fall in love with him. It was Freddie who was head over heels for David, so he must have felt at least flattered and wanted. And also must've felt needed, because Freddie was still struggling to find his place both areas, within Queen (as a frontman and taking part in the bussiness side) and personally (with his sexuallity and his shyness out of the stage).
David said how he was a kind of lead figure for Freddie in social meetings and parties while Freddie comes across as insecure and seemed to be very dependent not only on him, but many people throughout his life. So it's for sure David felt important in Freddie's life, but, as Freddie was winning confidence in all those areas, David felt more and more left out.
From one side, Freddie's desire to make his family proud and his Queen interests where pushing him to surrender towards a workaholic heterosexual life that could fullfil his ambitions and desire to succeed. He felt obligued to put on a mask that was drowning him under too much stress, worries and anxieties and certainly made him feel moody and drepressed .
And then, from the other side,new people was coming, and offering (not forcing) Freddie the very opposite side, the funny crazy world (alcohol and drugs give people a sense of confidence and carelessness that's not real) that he took with gratitude and self indulgence .
So David probably was in the middle of it and felt disregarded and hurt because he thought he had sacrificed many things for Freddie and now was unsure of what place he had in his life. (David said he had committed to their relationship for Freddie because he didn't want it in first place, he also said he had compromised his work to be by Freddie's side during tours and that he had done so much for Freddie and the whole band and that they had been ungrateful)
And, no doubt, Freddie must have felt hurt too because of David being resentful. He may have thought David was being sulky and demanding and reproaching him things all the time when he was trying to handle his life the way he could or knew, even if it was compartimentalizing it or hiding things from people around him (which is very exhausting).
Maybe it was all too much for him and David was starting to represent another burden which aumented the already intense pressure that was pushing from all flanks.
He seemed to have some kind of emotional deficiencies (like separation anxiety or abandonment issues).
Some people sent away from his family at a very young age for so long can suffer from affective dissorders. And in Freddie's case he could have felt also lack of support and lack of understanding because of his parents not accepting him being gay.
People with lack of affection can be very sceptical and find it hard to trust in people. It could cause them to think love is utopian and become resigned or misunderstand love and have false expectations. Many people with this kind of issues build relationships (love realationships or frinedships) and try to draw attention towards themselves (as being the receiver of everybody's care) to fill the void and can be sometimes selfish, dependent, needy of affection and afraid of being lonely.
Regardless of his parents loving him, that i'm sure they did,it is more about what he could feel because :
_Maybe they weren't very demonstrative
_They were far away from him and not able to show him all his affection
_He felt he had let them down in some ways (for being gay?, choosing arts as a career? , throwing away or give up his studies to beacome a musician?, not marrying a girl and not being able to build a family with children etc... ?) and therefore, fear they didn't love him anymore.
_He felt they devoted his attention more towards his sister and loved her more. (She wasn't as rebellious? , she happily married a man being much younger than him when he was just messing around and trying to make it work with his band...?)
These are just thoughts he could had had as a young boy.
All this issues could cause him the need to control everything and make it absolutely imprescindible for him to trust everyone around him before opening up.
If he found he couldn't trust anybody it would be very dificult for him to feel completely comfortable around them.
So for somebody who needs so much security and finds it hard to find people with whom he could feel at ease it's just obvious that he would cling to them for dear life. And because of that, betray can be very hurtful.
He tended to develope strong emotional attachment with people he thought were genuine or truly loved him, that's why he always cared for his friends and tried to keep in contact some way even if years have passed and mend mistakes of the past.
3. (LoL, point two was way too long) Needing good advice or good help to solve (or skip, as some would say) the difficult situation.
Think about his context, Freddie was a public figure; he hadn't come out publicy; he had parents who didn't accept his homosexuality and he would have seen it as a big catastrophe if they were to discover he had been lying about Mary and had been sleeping with a man; his increasing fame was making a dent and he was starting to taste the hard side of it; the amount of work, the level of success
Ok, still too long... SORRY. Be patient with me. I've been quiet too long ....
3. (LoL, point two was way too long) Needing good advice or good help to solve (or skip, as some would say) the difficult situation.
Think about his context, Freddie was a public figure; he hadn't come out publicy; he had parents who didn't accept his homosexuality and he would have seen it as a big catastrophe if they were to discover he had been lying about Mary and had been sleeping with a man; his increasing fame was making a dent and he was starting to taste the hard side of it; the amount of work, the level of success and the pressure to keep it high level; the press being not very kind with him; the punk scene was arising and threatening to destroy all he had worked so hard to get; Queen's management was going through a changing process to reach their indepency that took a great deal of money and hard work; he was surrounded by people who wanted a piece of the cake; and apparently his boyfriend (or almost exboyfriend, they had many ups and downs) might had gone nuts and had done something stupid.
He didn't know what could happen next, so Freddie probably went to his lawyer and confident (Jim Beach) for advice.
It's a childish thing to do, like going to your older brother when you break something expensive and you need someone to fix it because you are just scared someone can find out or your can parents scold you. But, like I said I think he was just insecure and hated to be in a vulnerable position.
Jim Beach being the bussinessman he is, surely wanted to make short work and cut it for the sake of the group image (we all know he didn't quite understand Freddie's relationship with men, remember it was the 70s, so he probably didn't adress the issue in the most sensitive way he would have done if the problem had been with Mary, for example) .
So he probably told Freddie it was better to "break the bonds" and sent a contract for David to sign in which he was comitted to remain quiet about their relationship in order to protect Freddie.
Even if maybe it wasn't completely what Freddie would have wanted. He was, then again, hiding under the band's interests and his own interests because he just couldn't carry that weight (the weight of being the cause of David's ills)under his shoulders as well. But in the world of the music bussiness you have to do some sacrifices I guess.
David said it was Freddie tasking somebody else to do the dirty work. Maybe it was skipping the situation but, the story has more than one angle, and David couldn't expect for Freddie to take the blame and carry with the guilt of such thing.
He sure felt bad of certain things he did, but they were both adults and it wouldn't have been fair on Freddie if he had felt guilty about something like what David did. That was beyond what Freddie could have done, it was about David's health and he should have asked for help.
Anyway, in the end, such contract never was signed as David also said.
Probably Freddie was too clingy or needy for affection, maybe he missed David and couldn't stay away (maybe it was David too who missed Freddie, it isn't very clear in the book. David just says they saw each other again), and neither him or David saw a need for him to sign such thing.
Freddie (as always) still insisted in keeping David close (which, for so many peole around meant "problems". JOE had already moved to Freddie's flat from America and I don't think he really appreciated having Freddie's ex or whatever he was around, MARY wanted Freddie to make up his mind and settle down with her, the NEW PEOPLE AROUND Freddie wanted him to be free and enjoy the life fame and fortune offered so they could take advantage of it as well and THE BAND didn't see with good eyes his preferences so I guess they just turned the blind eye.)
So, apparently Freddie offered to buy an apartment for David and then it was David who decided to definetly part ways and forget Freddie for the sake of his mental health I suppose.
Not everybody is willing to be like Mary and carry on with such a messy life.
I think David was very independent after all, so he just couldn't keep up with all that madness.
The same happened with Joe, I guess, but he came back to Freddie later in life and remained with him until the end. Maybe Joe understood Freddie better, I have a feeling that Joe felt very protective of Freddie and learnt to deal with his moods through his dramas and crisis.
I love how he would search for two cats to liven up the house and make Freddie happy and how he would always know what Freddie needed and cared for him through his illness.
Many people complains about why Freddie left the same amount of money to his boyfriend Jim, Joe and Phoebe. I think it would have been unfair otherwise, because those two people (Joe and Phoebe) went through hell and high water to make Freddie feel happy and cared for.
There's some other episodes that make David appear as quite bitter at times too, because of the way things are explained, and it's just normal, and surely unintencioned. He seems to make an effort to write the story unbiased so he admits some mistakes on his own as well (although, let's be honest, very timidly. But I understand he was hurt. And even though I don't like to speak of victims and guilties, David probably felt he was the victim in this, and that's fine. Freddie was the one who teased and cheated on David after all. And not everybody has the gut or the need to keep up with Freddie's tricky ways to feel wanted and his moods).
I don't understand people who say David is a liar, people sometimes just can't recognize Freddie did some things wrong.
I DO think Freddie was kind, sweet, generous and a very good man; but even the best people make mistakes and do bad things sometimes.
Freddie was a human being, the only thing that's different between him and the rest of us (apart from his impressive talent) is that his life has been examined, scrutined, commented, analyzed, overanalysed, told and retold to the minimum detail, so it's just evident that there is judgement on things that, if made by us, would be insignificant or just forgotten and never commented...
I emphatize with David and how he tells his experiences. But I can't help but emphatize with Freddie as well, knowing all he was through at that time and maybe during his upbringing. I just think there was lack of empathy on both parts, they struggled to recognize each other needs and probably, they were selfish (and a bit egotistical) and didn't consider enough each others fears and feelings.
As I said before It is David's chapter so he writes his thoughts and reflexions. Some of them, I have to say, are essays about some things that are really, just that, his thoughts. I mean, he rants way too much about so many different things like some kind of moralist... That trait I didn't appreaciate too much about him as I don't understand why he had to be so judgemental and critic.
He rants in a moment about the youth in the late 70s, in the punk era and how disrespectful they were, so unlike them,because they had values and respect for the public acts and older people or something like that. He says also something about drugs, like they were moderate and some younger people weren't (I don't remember exactly how it was writen). But he's like a grumpy granny really.
He rants about an author of a book that apparently wrote some things wrong about his and Freddie's relationship. He says he was not there and therefore he couln't talk about it.
I mean, I totally agree with that, but the thing is that David himself talks so much about Freddie's behaviour from 1979 to 1986 when David wasn't there.
He complains about someone who writes about something he didn't witnessed, he insists he had to know things first hand not just hear it from someone, and then David just keeps talking about how reckless, careless, exc
I hope this is the las part...
He complains about someone who talks about something he didn't witnessed, he insists he had to know things first hand not just hear it from someone, and then David just keeps talking about how reckless, careless, excesive... just how wrong Freddie was, how bad he behaved during that time he wasn't with him.
He says how alone he must have felt and how mistaken he was and it all told from a perspective that feels like some kind of moral of a fable, like saying: It's a shame but... that's what he got from all that (his illness), I (David) got away from that. For me that's the worst part of the book and I despised it as a very little compasive opinion.
He rants about Freddie's behaviour and personality way too much.
I'm perfectly okay with him telling what happened, what kind of arguments they had, how Freddie was with him, how he felt and what he thought about it at the time, BUT he literally spends whole paragraphs just kind of "reviewing" Freddie's personality with an air of self-complacency when he wasn't exactly what we would say exemplar.
He complains about Freddie becoming violent in the arguments every time he wasn't able to make his point come across or when he was confronted with some problematic topics for him like his sexuality, Mary or his parents.
He also says he could be unpleasant and rude with anybody around him on occasion and shout even at Mary.
Well, it is not that rare. It is very common to snap at the ones closest to you when you're stressed or something's going on in your life.
Everybody tends to take things out on people who they love and trust because they think family/friends/lover, whoever you are closest with, will understand or they won't hold a grudge.
And if you are already insecure or selfconscious about some aspects of your life, it causes a state of anxiety during confrontations and situations that are beyond your control.
Your insecurities can make you act very defensive or even overeact and get angy because there's that scaring feeling of being exposed or being ridicule and you fear people would see your vulnerabilities.That makes you want to hide it and keep a "strong" façade.
I think most of this may have something to do with Freddie's childhood. People grown in hostile enviroments or subjected to a strict discipline and that have suffered some kind of bullying or harassing tend to feel endangered by strangers or situations that are beyond their control.
When kid you're afraid of rejection so you always try to hide your vulnerabilities.
Growing up in a boarding school Freddie had to learn to fend for himself and with a distinctive physicality (like his teeth) or different personality (like his campness) it should not have been easy. He must've felt threatened and tried to develope a strong character and personality.
This early stage of developement affects greatly as an adult, so whenever he felt threatened he would respond the way he did back then so nobody would see his flaws and vulnerabilities, that is: shouting louder, like children do; trying to be more hurtful with his words than the other or lashing out when he runs out of arguments to defend his point.
Freddie could be like a spoiled child, impulsive, moody, petulant and sometimes for him it was more a matter of who won the fight than what it was for.
Yes, probably all true. But, was he really that vile to David? Did he really want to punish David, as he says, for not getting away with his wishes? Was he really that insidious? Didn't he care for David at all? Freddie could have been angry with him or take some stupid childish revenge some time, but Freddie was very aware of the fact that he could be very impulsive and that he made mistakes.
He knew he could snap quickly and was very aware of how he affected other people's lifes (he talked about it in the 1985 interview with David Wigg). He maybe wasn't too keen to say sorry (or the pride didn't let him) but he would see what he had made wrong and would try to fix it some way afterwards.
David himself said how Freddie would make a fuss apologizing, giving him presents and sending him flowers and cute postcards when they had had a fight or Freddie knew he had done something wrong or inappropriate.
People with that kind of nervous energy can be excitable and certain things he could do out of his impulsive nature or in a moment of anxiety or rage should made him feel regretful which causes guilt and emotional fatigue as well.
BUT let's not obviate that David was not less inclined towards fury, he complains Freddie seemed unable to talk the problems through but he flied off the handle as well (throwing things or getting physical), and both of them came to blows easily as it seems...
I mean, they were childish enough to play a game of who can make each other more jealous and see how far they could go. Freddie kind of lost that game because David played along and just ignored him and went to find his own enjoyment.
So Freddie reproached that to David and somehow David ended up grabbing a wooden clog and hitting Freddie on the head with it. What? I don't think it's the most mature or reasonable thing to do, and then, Did he expect Freddie to be just fine with that? Obviously he lashed out and hit David on the jaw as well because it seems that talking things through was not their way, the pride comes first. And, of course, It ended badly because the slap hit him some place David started to bleed and they both realised they had gone too far (and had been a pair of arseholes).
And then their worst fight, with the glass candlestick incident, loses its impact when just two pages before, David had written about another argument in which he had grabbed an asthray and hurled it at Freddie. He litteraly said that Freddie just missed it. So I don't think it's fair to say Freddie was just acting like that because he was violent or abusive or wathever, but because it kind of was the procedure in their relationship.
They were as bad for each other, the only thing is that Freddie seemed to be maybe more stressed and edgy or comes across as more aggressive, wich I think not only has to do with the fact that it's David who's telling the story but also with Freddie's state of mind at that time and maybe past experiences.
It was the 70s, there wasn't the same conciousness about domestic violence, or violence in general, that there is today. It wasn't much of a deal if two men fought so they just argued and fought like they were in a school playground. And in this case, I don't think it was a thing of power over one another or Freddie wanting David to submit, it was a thing of tension, being under too much pressure, arguments escalating, stubborness and pride. And maybe even lack of understanding on both parts as well.
And I have to say the candlestick incident lacks of explanation. I mean, David just says that he threw Freddie's catalogue to the ground and kind of ruined it, and Freddie complained about it and just snaped, which is unlikely. Probably they had been fighting over something that caused David throwing the catalogue in rage, and it escalated until Freddie went mad and responded in that violent way. Which has no defence, of course.
David rants about Freddie's behaviour yet again, but this time about the time after their relationship. He censures Freddie's behaviour saying how regrettable it is to have sex senseless and without love... But It was David who didn't want anything serious with Freddie in first place. It was David who said he brought night stands to his and David Evans flat that were never to stay. He also is the one to put Freddie's first wild birthday party together. He is the one who says he went to gay clubs and was far more experienced socializing than Freddie was (Despite Freddie having had his little trips to gay bars).
I mean I don't think he was the virgin Mary to say those things about Fr
Nope... this is.
I mean I don't think he was the virgin Mary to say those things about Freddie's sexual life.
But I guess it was until people like Paul Prenter (the villain) entered the scene and then David was just escandalised because he was so refined...haha.
I mean, I don't think he had any right to judge what Freddie did or didn't do with his body. That cruel illnes was just that, an illnes nobody thougth will reach them at that time.
David seemed to me a little snobbish sometimes. And Freddie at some extent in the begining as well. Like they thought of themselves as more classy or "more fabulous gays" than other they maybe found more rude or sort of super manly with all the macho look, they perhaps found it too debauched or tacky (I don't even know). I mean just the way they (Evans and Minns) described the people whom they socialized and worked with and the first impression they had on Freddie it's enough to see they were a little "exquisite".
I think their common friends or the people Freddie met through David were a little like that as well, Peter Straker for example,they were like more snobbish or sophisticated if you like, and more camp. But it's not like they were nuns nor little angels, I think it was more a matter of style.
And then, around 1979, Freddie started to open his barriers and discover new places, maybe he found boys more his taste (more butch?) he found new companies and indulged himself to explore some amusing more sleazy clubs and the leather look.
I think that's what David felt, like he had gone to the "dark side".
But I feel Freddie, he had been repressed for so long, almost until his 30s, he was just burnsting to explore his sexuality and his true self. I think he saw an open world when he travelled to America an discovered the gay scene there. It must have been like there were no limits.
David appears a bit narcisistic too (or "genius", I think he refers to it in the book with this word in yet another rant about Freddie's suposedly wrong demeanor) and he is honest enough as to admite that he is (and some other things, I don't think he wants to play the innocent), but, of course, he puts Freddie in the same bag. And sometimes I kind of miss one of those rants being a true autocritique.
Self deprecating or need to apologie seems to be a thing that only applies to Freddie, because he is the bad guy. David is the one affected the most in that relationship because of Freddie's unability to handle his problems, and apparently, his flirtatious attitude and jealousy.
Even though the last were traits they had in common, David recalls the possessivity for one another but also their cheeckiness and playfulness (the "gaiety" of it all, as David would call it) and that could be an explosive mix.
My analysis is much longer than that but I think I get too carried away already and nobody's gonna read all that so I'm gonna leave it there.
wordsdontcomeeasytome
:) wow :) and I felt guilty my posts are too long :)
I think there is nothing else to say. I have to read your posts once more but I think I just agree with you. You choose your future profession well.
wow that was long and I couldn 't take it all in .
It's clear you and I are different; I just took the book for what it is, David and David's POV. We don't have Freddie's so we can't comment on that.
I did and still do feel for David as the relationship was clearly tough on him and on Freddie .
Noone is perfect and I appreciate it isn't all Freddie's fault however, Freddie is known to be a very complex and possessive person (his words ) and he brought David into his life and started a relationship with him under false pretences. He did not tell him he was still in a relationship with Mary.
I don't think for one moment it was all bad but they had there moments and fights which got out of hand. David did hit Freddie first so I did find that a little off.
Imagine a relationship with Freddie knowing how complex he is, not for me.
I do still believe Freddie left David heartbroken and I firmly believe that sometimes a person can make a spur of the moment decision in a moment of madness...I'm referring to suicide. Freddie wrote a song about suicide afterwards. , that wouldn't thrill me TBH
I have been in that dark place and it isn't nice. .
Remember freddie was known for his temper as well as all of his lovely qualities. He smashed a mirror over his manager's head and then got him to clean it up. David Wigg saw Freddie loosing it in his dressing room the first time he interviewed him. In his younger days I'd say freddie had a lot to learn but I imagine he was struggling with other areas of his life.
I don't blame David for having to get away, that is what I would have to do. To stay around someone who broke you heart would be very difficult for me.
I am glad they became friends again in later life when Freddie had clearly matured .
I do also believe Freddie's time for 1979 to 1985 was crazy and some of the things he got up to don't bear thinking about. However, his journey into homosexuilty started quite late in life so who can blame him for sleeping with one man after the other. It must have left him feeling quite empty after a while.
eck....Freddie Mercury The Great Pretender book arrived today.
I love it and it's def one you need in print, it has lovely photos.
It's made me a little emotional . I'll give you a peak at some of the introduction.
It's 8 pm and I'm sitting watching the uncut rushes of Freddie's infamous birthday party in munich, 1985.
It is hard to tell if Freddie is enjoying himself or not . A three-tiered cake is carried across the dance floor as the birthday boy is ushered over to blow out the candles. Slightly embarrassed, he blows out a few and retreats into a corner of the the room away from everyone, where he spends most of the night. Being the centre of attention at his own party appears to make him squirm.
The party footage in the past has been often used to depict his outrageous personal life. However, this wasn't really Freddie;s personal life. It's what he wanted us to believe was his personal life , to embellish the image and persona he had created.
This is what made me sad
Life couldn't be better, he was invited to Barcelona to meet Montserrat his idol, he was in his element. On an emotional level he had finally found happiness with long-term boyfriend, Jim Hutton. Life couldn't have been better, except he knew he was HIV Positive, he had aids.
Its so sad that his life was going so well and bloody AIDS had to spoilt it :(
doughnut, if we can't comment on Freddie's perspective, what is all this opinion forum for? It's obviously David POV, and that's why I said what I said. That's the very reason to question how objective that can be keeping in mind all that happened between them.
I didn't deny any of the things you're saying. I said Freddie was possessive and had temper and that their relationship was tough.
I was just saying that sometimes things have to be put on perspective.
You say he started a relationship with David under false pretences... well that's your way to put it. I just feel you really have to think in his situation, because we're already seeing it from David's perspective.
He surely had the need to hide his relationship with Mary from
David because he feared David would end up the relationship, and Freddie apparently was unable to break the relationship with Mary. He had a strong bond with her
and needed her to keep aparences as well. It's survival instict (He surely felt guilty about that situation. He felt also bad for Mary and Mary recalls how he seemed uneasy at that time)
He brought David to his flat with Mary. You will say that was cruel and Freddie was playing with his feelings.
I would say he just knew David would have to know soon or later and didn't have the gut to tell him directly, so he kind of showed him.
It's a bad thing or a coward thing, yes. But not a reason to say Freddie wanted to hassle David for the shake of it or .
I also said I feel for David and empathise with him, but also with Freddie.
"Freddie is known for being a complex and possessive person" I covered all that as well and I explained the reasond why I thought he was that way.
And referring to the song about suicide. It's "Don't try suicide" that song is from the album "The Games" which was recorded a good two years before they broke up. Brian May also
refered to it in an interview saying that song was recorded when they started recording in Musicland Studios in Munich. That studio was in the basement of the Arabella building which was (in)famous
because people would climb up to the roof and attempt suicide.
David said he thought that song was for him but there's no proof of that.
Even if the song ws about him, why would Freddie write about it two years before? If he didn't care... as the song says "nobody cares".
The song also says "don't do it" in repeat and "nobody's worth it". The song it's far from sensitive on that matter, but things were diferent at that time.
I've been in that dark place too, that's why I decided to study psychology.
I'm sorry if you misunderstood my opinions as an attack towards David. It's far from it. I just needed to say that I wouldn't judge Freddie that fast
and asume all what David said were inamovible facts.
I know he was moody and temperamental when he was younger. He himself said that in the interview with David Clark ( "In those days I was young and threw tantrums")
The anecdotes you say are told in different versions throughout the years and recalled in books and articles and I don't really know what is the real truth.
I seem to recall that manager was Pete Brown, and he's mentioned talking about the incident in a book. I don't know at what extent were his own words or not,
but he just said that Freddie got mad because they were trying to access to the venue they were going to play in Australia. Aparently people got angry because they were waiting outside or something and
Freddie had insisted in accessing with the car, so the people harassed them from outside the car, called them names (c*nts or queers I don't remember) and made gestures with their hands.
Then Freddie took out the anger on Pete. Whether he really smashed the mirror against his head or just threw it above his head, or if the mirror was big or small. There are different versions.
But if you had been hit directly on the head with a heavy mirror I don't think you'll be able to clean it afterwards. And poor Pete said he understood Freddie was embarrassed about the incident with the people.
And as for David Wigg, he is a master of exaggerating and dramatizing. And the four in the band crashed things backstage out of frustation... It's a way to blow off the steam after all the tension and stamina piled up during the show. It happens to many people in the showbiz world.
I agree with you that It was the best thing to do for David to get away. I didn't blame him for that nor criticized him for it.
The difference is that somebody else breaking anybody's heart would never be discussed and expossed in a way Freddie's mistakes in life are. For all to opine and judge.
If I broke my partner's heart it wouldn't go much far than my neighbour two blocks away.
I think David needed maduration too... but it's my opinion.
Freddie's behaviour from 1979 to 1985, sleeping with one man after the other, being a man whore or whatever people want to call was his bussiness.
David judged way too much his actions and he didn't even was affected by it because they weren't together anymore. I don't think it's fair just because what happened to Freddie.
And I don't want to enter in a territory that leads to the criminalization of AIDS victims.
doughnut
i actually don´t believe Freddie didn´t enjoy parties he organized. Even his clovest friends confirmed he liked to have a good time and nobody forced him to go out every evening. I think it was part of his personality, same as his stage persona and shyness. There were at least 3 Freddies inside of him. Regarding his 39th birthday party, I think that there is a rumour that Freddie was blinded for a moment when the cake was brouth? Someone put something into his drink? But I cannot confirm it.
And you are right, that the timing was really unfair to him. But on the other side - we can´t say he didn´t live to the full. There are plenty of people who died in 80 and hadn´t lived at all.
Ok, I put great Prenetender on my list.
