Mayfan:
You're falling right into Bush's reelection campaign line of thought which is:
Saddam was a very very evil man
THEREFORE
Everything Bush has done is justified.
The right sees that. They're willing to forgive several of Bush Admin wrongs based on that justification.
Other folks aren't making that same connection. They see:
Saddam was a very very evil man
THEREFORE
that may very well be validation to go to war with Iraq
BUT THAT DOES *NOT* JUSTIFY
- Bush acting unilaterally
- Bush using 9/11 as an excuse for the Iraq war
- Bush calling Iraq a war on terrorism
- Bush not following through with the mess in Afghanistan
- Bush sending the US into record debt
- Bush going into a premeditated war WITHOUT an exit strategy
- Cheney's company getting exclusive rights to all contracts
- Bush using faulty/invalid evidence to justify the war
- Bush, a military deserter, using the war to set himself up as a 'war president'
It's not the war, per-se, people are against. It's HOW and WHY and the MOTIVATIONS behind the war that everyone is against. This was not a war due to an attack. This was the united states invading a soverign country. YES, the leader was evil. That does NOT change the fact that we invaded a country unprovoked.
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So what you're say, joey, is that if you are walking down the street and you see someone in an alley about to be murdered, you will turn your head and do nothing because the murderer owns the alley and is not provoking you??
Again, I'm not saying Bush is pure and god-like. He is a typical political figure. It doesn't matter who is in office, they will always be chastised. But there is more to this than bureaucratic bullshit in my opinion. I personally do not feel that these things that are happening in this world should go unnoticed and ignored. What if Abraham Lincoln turned his head? There was alot more going on than old Abe standing on the soap box preaching "free the slaves!" BUT, it was what freed the slaves. Sometimes you need to focus on the good points instead of the bad ones all the time. Hopefully, and I mean hopefully, some of these crazies in the world will start thinking twice before they go and kill our friends and families. And the sadest thing about all of this is that these terrorist proclaim it all in the name of God! And then we all wonder where God is when we need him.....
Again, I'm not saying Bush is pure and god-like. He is a typical political figure. It doesn't matter who is in office, they will always be chastised. But there is more to this than bureaucratic bullshit in my opinion. I personally do not feel that these things that are happening in this world should go unnoticed and ignored. What if Abraham Lincoln turned his head? There was alot more going on than old Abe standing on the soap box preaching "free the slaves!" BUT, it was what freed the slaves. Sometimes you need to focus on the good points instead of the bad ones all the time. Hopefully, and I mean hopefully, some of these crazies in the world will start thinking twice before they go and kill our friends and families. And the sadest thing about all of this is that these terrorist proclaim it all in the name of God! And then we all wonder where God is when we need him.....
Remind me to say something later. I'm really tired now and I think I'll retire.
"So what you're say, joey, is that if you are walking down the street and you see someone in an alley about to be murdered, you will turn your head and do nothing because the murderer owns the alley and is not provoking you??"
No. I am not saying that at all.
No. I am not saying that at all.
"I personally do not feel that these things that are happening in this world should go unnoticed and ignored."
I don't either. That is an entirely different issue, though. Again, Bush is happy when people mix these topics together. It's important to keep them seperate.
"Sometimes you need to focus on the good points instead of the bad ones all the time."
I can easily focus on the good point that Saddam is no longer in Iraq. That still doesn't change all the bad point regarding this debacle.
"Hopefully, and I mean hopefully, some of these crazies in the world will start thinking twice before they go and kill our friends and families."
That's not how terrorists work, MusicMan. Terrorists are not rational entities. You can't fight a war on terrorism. And let's not forget some of Osama's reasons for his acts...the fact that the US maintains a large presense in the Middle east. The very act of us invading Iraq is in many ways more fodder for the terrorist recruiters.
"And the sadest thing about all of this is that these terrorist proclaim it all in the name of God! And then we all wonder where God is when we need him....."
And bush thinks God is on his side as well. Mixing religion and politics is rarely a good thing for either side. ;o)
I don't either. That is an entirely different issue, though. Again, Bush is happy when people mix these topics together. It's important to keep them seperate.
"Sometimes you need to focus on the good points instead of the bad ones all the time."
I can easily focus on the good point that Saddam is no longer in Iraq. That still doesn't change all the bad point regarding this debacle.
"Hopefully, and I mean hopefully, some of these crazies in the world will start thinking twice before they go and kill our friends and families."
That's not how terrorists work, MusicMan. Terrorists are not rational entities. You can't fight a war on terrorism. And let's not forget some of Osama's reasons for his acts...the fact that the US maintains a large presense in the Middle east. The very act of us invading Iraq is in many ways more fodder for the terrorist recruiters.
"And the sadest thing about all of this is that these terrorist proclaim it all in the name of God! And then we all wonder where God is when we need him....."
And bush thinks God is on his side as well. Mixing religion and politics is rarely a good thing for either side. ;o)
Look....joey...my man...
I'm not here to argue with you...and I say that very sincerely. I do understand where you are coming from with alot of the points you are making and I agree completely with alot of it. I just get very fired up when it comes to the desensitivity and the devaluation of human life and the spirit of humanity. First off, the person responsible for this thread in the first place apparently has no humanitarian spirit in him which a) is very sad and b) pisses me off that he is trying to infect the rest of us. Secondly, I'm become infuriated when people commit evil in the name of God. To me, this isn't about Iraqis or Muslums or whatever race or creed or nationality. Its about sick fucking people. Period. And this world is becoming more infected everyday with this scum. There are days I hate the fact that I brought babies into this world to have to deal with this. Anybody have "The Works"?? I'll bet you do...and I quote.."Is This The World We Created..?"
And with that, I hope I made my point. I'm not here to say you are all wrong. Just to voice my opinion and what I believe in. God did not make us to be hateful. We have just forgotten everything else.
I'm not here to argue with you...and I say that very sincerely. I do understand where you are coming from with alot of the points you are making and I agree completely with alot of it. I just get very fired up when it comes to the desensitivity and the devaluation of human life and the spirit of humanity. First off, the person responsible for this thread in the first place apparently has no humanitarian spirit in him which a) is very sad and b) pisses me off that he is trying to infect the rest of us. Secondly, I'm become infuriated when people commit evil in the name of God. To me, this isn't about Iraqis or Muslums or whatever race or creed or nationality. Its about sick fucking people. Period. And this world is becoming more infected everyday with this scum. There are days I hate the fact that I brought babies into this world to have to deal with this. Anybody have "The Works"?? I'll bet you do...and I quote.."Is This The World We Created..?"
And with that, I hope I made my point. I'm not here to say you are all wrong. Just to voice my opinion and what I believe in. God did not make us to be hateful. We have just forgotten everything else.
"Secondly, I'm become infuriated when people commit evil in the name of God."
I don't disagree with you, MM. That seems to be the exact problem with Saddam, Osama, and G.W. ;o)
To be fair, I don't believe any of them actually BELIEVE they are on God's side, they just know it helps uninformed masses go along with their plan.
As for the original poster, I think we both agree that he's not realy the 'debating' type. ;o)
I don't disagree with you, MM. That seems to be the exact problem with Saddam, Osama, and G.W. ;o)
To be fair, I don't believe any of them actually BELIEVE they are on God's side, they just know it helps uninformed masses go along with their plan.
As for the original poster, I think we both agree that he's not realy the 'debating' type. ;o)
To be fair, I don't believe any of them actually BELIEVE they are on God's side, they just know it helps uninformed masses go along with their plan.
I generally agree with everything you've said to this point, joeyjojo... except for this one I've quoted.
The majority of the US right definitely believes God is on their side. It's called ethnocentric belief. Christian fundamentalists are usually a mix of egocentric (my personal salvation, and screw everyone else) and ethnocentric (God is on my country's side, and screw everyone else). Simple language, but that's pretty much the gist of it.
"The majority of the US right definitely believes God is on their side."
I don't know if it's truly a majority, but I do agree with you. A LOT do. My point was that I don't believe G.W. truly believes it. He's only in it for the power. Or perhaps he's simply convinced himself of it by now. What I've read about Saddam is similiar. Saddam is evil for one reason, it gives him power (which isn't unlike a lot of tribal governments in the region). Saddam has justified his reign of power as being a direct descendant of mohammed. While on a different scale, of course, that's not completely unlike some of the GOP tactics nor even unlike some of the terrorist group recruiting tactics.
Fundamentalism (religious or otherwise) is a very powerful tool of persuasion. The extreme right know it's easier to keep people from questioning things too much and keep their line of thinking in a fundamental state than to openly debate issues...Sadam was bad...the war was good...gays are bad...taxes are bad...keep the masses dwelling on oversimplified rhetoric and they ignore the rest. ;o)
I don't know if it's truly a majority, but I do agree with you. A LOT do. My point was that I don't believe G.W. truly believes it. He's only in it for the power. Or perhaps he's simply convinced himself of it by now. What I've read about Saddam is similiar. Saddam is evil for one reason, it gives him power (which isn't unlike a lot of tribal governments in the region). Saddam has justified his reign of power as being a direct descendant of mohammed. While on a different scale, of course, that's not completely unlike some of the GOP tactics nor even unlike some of the terrorist group recruiting tactics.
Fundamentalism (religious or otherwise) is a very powerful tool of persuasion. The extreme right know it's easier to keep people from questioning things too much and keep their line of thinking in a fundamental state than to openly debate issues...Sadam was bad...the war was good...gays are bad...taxes are bad...keep the masses dwelling on oversimplified rhetoric and they ignore the rest. ;o)
Check out this website -
http://home.earthlink.net/~robx/Bush/Bush.html
How can one person screw up so many internal as well as external policies in 4 years? I hate to see my relatives in the States having financial trouble because of misguided and selfish economic policies that Bush admin pushed in the midst of war, terrorism etc.
OK, so the Bush administration caused many deaths, and many countries are angry about that. But what can the average Americans do to change it? When the American Constitution was written the writers feared that too much democracy in the people's hand would be abused easily and designed the election so that a few representatives rather than everyone can exert their political power during the voting process. So what if the majority of people think Bush has to be removed? You never know what is going to happen in the election, and a few hundred votes are easier to buy than a few million people.
On the other hand, I fear that even if Kerry is elected, every time something goes amiss Bush's side will say "I told you so" and spread mistrust.
http://home.earthlink.net/~robx/Bush/Bush.html
How can one person screw up so many internal as well as external policies in 4 years? I hate to see my relatives in the States having financial trouble because of misguided and selfish economic policies that Bush admin pushed in the midst of war, terrorism etc.
OK, so the Bush administration caused many deaths, and many countries are angry about that. But what can the average Americans do to change it? When the American Constitution was written the writers feared that too much democracy in the people's hand would be abused easily and designed the election so that a few representatives rather than everyone can exert their political power during the voting process. So what if the majority of people think Bush has to be removed? You never know what is going to happen in the election, and a few hundred votes are easier to buy than a few million people.
On the other hand, I fear that even if Kerry is elected, every time something goes amiss Bush's side will say "I told you so" and spread mistrust.
Fundamentalism (religious or otherwise) is a very powerful tool of persuasion. The extreme right know it's easier to keep people from questioning things too much and keep their line of thinking in a fundamental state than to openly debate issues...Sadam was bad...the war was good...gays are bad...taxes are bad...keep the masses dwelling on oversimplified rhetoric and they ignore the rest. ;o)
Truth 101 for the uneducated to read. Excellent stuff, man.
On the other hand, I fear that even if Kerry is elected, every time something goes amiss Bush's side will say "I told you so" and spread mistrust.
Never thought of that, but you could very well be right.
I am fit? Like physically fit?
I don't think that means the same thing for me as it does you.
I dunno what you mean by that oppo.
Describing someone as 'fit' means you think they are good looking, attractive etc
I don't think that means the same thing for me as it does you.
I dunno what you mean by that oppo.
Describing someone as 'fit' means you think they are good looking, attractive etc
What can the average american do? Well, at the top level...not a whole lot. Voting certainly helps (we have abysmal voter turnout in this country) but, at the federal level, there is a lot that favours the 2-party system and very little that will enable it to bring in 3rd parties.
At the local level, that's a bit different. A lot is actually going on at the local level. The Green party and independants are slowly gaining percantages in government. Many local (ciy-level) areas in the country now use instant run off voting (the ONLY solution to our national election problems, IMHO) so things are going somewhere.
If you've seen 'OutFoxed'--an excellent documentary on Rupert Murdoch's incredibly powerful media empire--you'll remember a great quote from the movie (I'm paraphrasing):
"The reason propaganda works so well on the american public is because the American public are folks that least expect propaganda".
That is a very true statement, and, as such, the ONE thing the average american can do is to ask more questions. We'll see if that happens. ;o)
At the local level, that's a bit different. A lot is actually going on at the local level. The Green party and independants are slowly gaining percantages in government. Many local (ciy-level) areas in the country now use instant run off voting (the ONLY solution to our national election problems, IMHO) so things are going somewhere.
If you've seen 'OutFoxed'--an excellent documentary on Rupert Murdoch's incredibly powerful media empire--you'll remember a great quote from the movie (I'm paraphrasing):
"The reason propaganda works so well on the american public is because the American public are folks that least expect propaganda".
That is a very true statement, and, as such, the ONE thing the average american can do is to ask more questions. We'll see if that happens. ;o)
why don't you try going to one SOBER. you might enjoy it more.
Yes i would also like to congratulate G.W.Bush and all of your armed forces, 11,000 dead Iraqi's, its a very good start, keep up the good work over the next 4 years, Britain salute's you.