The more I think of it, the more I understand the general problem. As long as there's a Queen community that's capable of sharing MP3 files, the trading scene will stay away. So splitting Queenzone in two forums – lossy and lossless – is no solution. If somebody likes to share his MP3s at another place (there are lots of them, but not on has a "Queen" label), no problem. But if Queenzone is supposed to be the place where Queen recordings are shared, it has to regain the trust of the traders. And that can only be accomplished by banning MP3 and establishing moderation. But: how long will it take, till the bad reputation is wahed clean – if at all?
The alternative is to make a sharp cut: Disable file sharing at Queenzone completely and build a brand new sharing community – lossless only – at another domain.
I'd vote for the latter. Queenzone, the discussion forum, and Queenboots (or any other name), the trading community.
Thread
Posts in chronological order
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
We need to weed out those who are pro-mp3. They contribute nothing to the community. It really is as simple as that.
[/QUOTE]
I hope you do not really mean that, Bob. Weed out? I don't believe it. You must know that such a language has a history.
I stopped discussing the issue a while ago but to blame everything which is "wrong" in the Queen collector world on Queenzone is simply unfair. I know tapers in person and none of them ever told me I cannot share a recording on the net (Dime, QZ, whatever) because of the mp3 issue. It was ALWAYS because of ebay and bootleg sellers or because they simply do not want to have their recordings shared at all. The tapers I know are not that concerned about the issue. After all, most of them record on mini disc which is a lossy recording to begin with (I know the difference between the mini disc compression and mp3, please don't start). Much more than sharing mp3s it annoys me that new concerts which have been shared on the net lately appear on ebay within days - and the sellers are often traders, you know that.
I can't believe the picture that is drawn here: if we do not ban mp3, the Queen collectors are not respected and teenager hoardes will invade the website. Queenzone is not the center of the world, many recordings are shared in private, via messengers or sites like emule. It's totally impossible to forbid the circulation of mp3s.
Also, policing the members has never been an option for Richard. Messages announcing official recordings are deleted but that is the end of "moderation". I think many of us do not even realize to which extent sharing is possible on Queenzone (and tolerated by the "powers"!)and how lucky we are to have this generous community. Instead, people are complaining about exactly this freedom and tolerance. You cannot have it both ways - the freedom and tolerance AND the website removing posts you do not approve of.
There are still a lot of people with slow connections or dial up who pay per minute and it's really unkind to tell them they have just bad luck because many of us have moved away from that.
We need to weed out those who are pro-mp3. They contribute nothing to the community. It really is as simple as that.
[/QUOTE]
I hope you do not really mean that, Bob. Weed out? I don't believe it. You must know that such a language has a history.
I stopped discussing the issue a while ago but to blame everything which is "wrong" in the Queen collector world on Queenzone is simply unfair. I know tapers in person and none of them ever told me I cannot share a recording on the net (Dime, QZ, whatever) because of the mp3 issue. It was ALWAYS because of ebay and bootleg sellers or because they simply do not want to have their recordings shared at all. The tapers I know are not that concerned about the issue. After all, most of them record on mini disc which is a lossy recording to begin with (I know the difference between the mini disc compression and mp3, please don't start). Much more than sharing mp3s it annoys me that new concerts which have been shared on the net lately appear on ebay within days - and the sellers are often traders, you know that.
I can't believe the picture that is drawn here: if we do not ban mp3, the Queen collectors are not respected and teenager hoardes will invade the website. Queenzone is not the center of the world, many recordings are shared in private, via messengers or sites like emule. It's totally impossible to forbid the circulation of mp3s.
Also, policing the members has never been an option for Richard. Messages announcing official recordings are deleted but that is the end of "moderation". I think many of us do not even realize to which extent sharing is possible on Queenzone (and tolerated by the "powers"!)and how lucky we are to have this generous community. Instead, people are complaining about exactly this freedom and tolerance. You cannot have it both ways - the freedom and tolerance AND the website removing posts you do not approve of.
There are still a lot of people with slow connections or dial up who pay per minute and it's really unkind to tell them they have just bad luck because many of us have moved away from that.
Nummer2, can you please send me an email? bob at queenlive.ca
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Richard means well, but he's using the same policies that he used years ago. They don't meet today's needs.[/QUOTE]
Whose needs?
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Barbara, why is so hard for you to accept that Queenzone is not a prosperous trading community? Why are you ignoring the fact that it is only Queen that is known to have collectors who convert new sources to mp3 and re-share them?.[/QUOTE]
But QZ is not a trading community :) That's the whole misunderstanding - it's a fan website. We can try to establish a trading community but there will always be room for other aspects of "fandom". In the past Richard has always been willing to add other forums - surely he would create an mp3 forum (instead of a request forum, for example) if the members want that - but it seems to me that some members want to ban mp3s from the website.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME]A small minority of people have small hard drives and/or slow connections. Why should the majority of people have to give in to their needs?[/QUOTE]
They don't need to give in. It's everybody's choice which format they collect. I am not sure about the small minority, we don't have any statistics.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME]I'm not blaming *all* the problems on Queenzone. But I can be completely certain that our bad reputation regarding quality preservation is because of Queenzone. I have never seen a trading community of another band criticized because its traders convert shows to mp3.[/QUOTE]
Okay, maybe I am wrong here - but is there any other fan website like QZ? I mean a fan website with such a big sharing forum for JUST ONE band? Tolerated by the band and endorsed by the official website? I think not but maybe I am wrong. I just do not care when we are criticized by whoever thinks this is wrong. As a collector I have never once encountered any criticism because I have a Queenzone account. I know many Queen collectors who keep a distance from QZ but they do not necessarily keep a distance to me as a person or collector because of Queenzone. When a collector gives me a recording under the condition not to share it on QZ, I do respect it. If there are people who would never speak to me because of Queenzone - well, the world is big enough for all of us.
Look, I am not the enemy of flac collectors, I do understand where you coming from. I just cannot agree to banning mp3s. There are so many restrictions in work and other aspects of life, I am all for live and let live in my hobby. You can still email Richard, maybe he has another opinion.
Whose needs?
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Barbara, why is so hard for you to accept that Queenzone is not a prosperous trading community? Why are you ignoring the fact that it is only Queen that is known to have collectors who convert new sources to mp3 and re-share them?.[/QUOTE]
But QZ is not a trading community :) That's the whole misunderstanding - it's a fan website. We can try to establish a trading community but there will always be room for other aspects of "fandom". In the past Richard has always been willing to add other forums - surely he would create an mp3 forum (instead of a request forum, for example) if the members want that - but it seems to me that some members want to ban mp3s from the website.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME]A small minority of people have small hard drives and/or slow connections. Why should the majority of people have to give in to their needs?[/QUOTE]
They don't need to give in. It's everybody's choice which format they collect. I am not sure about the small minority, we don't have any statistics.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME]I'm not blaming *all* the problems on Queenzone. But I can be completely certain that our bad reputation regarding quality preservation is because of Queenzone. I have never seen a trading community of another band criticized because its traders convert shows to mp3.[/QUOTE]
Okay, maybe I am wrong here - but is there any other fan website like QZ? I mean a fan website with such a big sharing forum for JUST ONE band? Tolerated by the band and endorsed by the official website? I think not but maybe I am wrong. I just do not care when we are criticized by whoever thinks this is wrong. As a collector I have never once encountered any criticism because I have a Queenzone account. I know many Queen collectors who keep a distance from QZ but they do not necessarily keep a distance to me as a person or collector because of Queenzone. When a collector gives me a recording under the condition not to share it on QZ, I do respect it. If there are people who would never speak to me because of Queenzone - well, the world is big enough for all of us.
Look, I am not the enemy of flac collectors, I do understand where you coming from. I just cannot agree to banning mp3s. There are so many restrictions in work and other aspects of life, I am all for live and let live in my hobby. You can still email Richard, maybe he has another opinion.
Strange ... what happened to the message I replied to?
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]YourValentine wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Strange ... what happened to the message I replied to?[/QUOTE]
Ha... I don't know! :P
[QUOTE]Okay, maybe I am wrong here - but is there any other fan website like QZ? I mean a fan website with such a big sharing forum for JUST ONE band? Tolerated by the band and endorsed by the official website?[/QUOTE]
Are you saying that QOL endorses Queenzone?
If you want to see websites of thriving trading communities for single bands, here are a couple:
www.yeeshkul.com and www.royal-orleans.com
However, you can't see the forum on the Zeppelin website unless you register.
[QUOTE]When a collector gives me a recording under the condition not to share it on QZ, I do respect it.[/QUOTE]
Those aren't the kinds of collectors I'm talking about. This small number of private European Queen collectors do not represent collectors as a whole. Collectors who are usually difficult to negotiate with and place restrictions on recordings are in the sheer minority. Since you only collect Queen (that I'm aware of), perhaps you think that collectors who hold the best/rarest material of other bands act similarly. Well, that totally is not the case. Just recently, a first gen tape of Mike Millard's legendary recording of Zeppelin's LA 6-21-77 show came out on the Presence server. If that was an equivalent Queen recording (say, LA 12-22-77, or even 3-3-77, since that has been circulating as an unmarked gen) and one of those European collectors were the first to get it, it wouldn't see the light of day for years, if ever.
The days of hoarding and trading with restrictions are coming to a grinding halt in this modern digital age of collecting. Queen collectors are far behind in this aspect of trading as well. Open sharing attracts others who want to share. In the wider collecting world, those who want to share are in the overwhelming majority. In contrast, many Queen traders still have the "every man for himself" attitude, so in many cases, we don't know where the best recordings of many shows are, because some people aren't willing to talk. The time has come to act as a community, not as individuals. I digress... kind of. These things do all come together in the end.
Since people are more willing than ever to share their uncirculated recordings (again, not Queen collectors, but people who recorded many bands including Queen), they want the quality of their recordings to be maintained. At the moment, the centre of the Queen trading community is QZ, like Yeeshkul is for Pink Floyd or Royal Orleans for Led Zeppelin. They compare Queenzone to those websites, and need little time to see that this sharing forum is an absolute mess. Thus, they sit on their recordings, but for entirely different reasons than why Queen collectors sit on theirs.
Take the new sources of Dallas 78, Vancouver 78, London 9-7/8-84, Stockholm 86, and Manchester 86 as examples, which all came straight from the source. I can be pretty certain that those collectors would not have shared those recordings had they been aware of Queenzone. They shared them elsewhere (Dime, TTD), because there are quality standards at those websites. There is not a chance that they simply chose Dime and TTD for no apparent reason.
As for QZ itself, how many new sources of recordings from collectors with quality standards have popped up here in the last few years? My count is at zero (silver rips don't count). Perhaps that Leiden 84 alternate source counts? I can't think of any others.
Collectors of most bands happily share everything they have. Of course, there will always be Stones, Who, Zeppelin, etc. collectors who will sit on recordings for decades, but I have never seen other collectors hang onto even the most insignificant recordings like Queen collectors do. Dealing with these select European Queen collectors does not give one the entire picture of what trading communities are, and what th
Ha... I don't know! :P
[QUOTE]Okay, maybe I am wrong here - but is there any other fan website like QZ? I mean a fan website with such a big sharing forum for JUST ONE band? Tolerated by the band and endorsed by the official website?[/QUOTE]
Are you saying that QOL endorses Queenzone?
If you want to see websites of thriving trading communities for single bands, here are a couple:
www.yeeshkul.com and www.royal-orleans.com
However, you can't see the forum on the Zeppelin website unless you register.
[QUOTE]When a collector gives me a recording under the condition not to share it on QZ, I do respect it.[/QUOTE]
Those aren't the kinds of collectors I'm talking about. This small number of private European Queen collectors do not represent collectors as a whole. Collectors who are usually difficult to negotiate with and place restrictions on recordings are in the sheer minority. Since you only collect Queen (that I'm aware of), perhaps you think that collectors who hold the best/rarest material of other bands act similarly. Well, that totally is not the case. Just recently, a first gen tape of Mike Millard's legendary recording of Zeppelin's LA 6-21-77 show came out on the Presence server. If that was an equivalent Queen recording (say, LA 12-22-77, or even 3-3-77, since that has been circulating as an unmarked gen) and one of those European collectors were the first to get it, it wouldn't see the light of day for years, if ever.
The days of hoarding and trading with restrictions are coming to a grinding halt in this modern digital age of collecting. Queen collectors are far behind in this aspect of trading as well. Open sharing attracts others who want to share. In the wider collecting world, those who want to share are in the overwhelming majority. In contrast, many Queen traders still have the "every man for himself" attitude, so in many cases, we don't know where the best recordings of many shows are, because some people aren't willing to talk. The time has come to act as a community, not as individuals. I digress... kind of. These things do all come together in the end.
Since people are more willing than ever to share their uncirculated recordings (again, not Queen collectors, but people who recorded many bands including Queen), they want the quality of their recordings to be maintained. At the moment, the centre of the Queen trading community is QZ, like Yeeshkul is for Pink Floyd or Royal Orleans for Led Zeppelin. They compare Queenzone to those websites, and need little time to see that this sharing forum is an absolute mess. Thus, they sit on their recordings, but for entirely different reasons than why Queen collectors sit on theirs.
Take the new sources of Dallas 78, Vancouver 78, London 9-7/8-84, Stockholm 86, and Manchester 86 as examples, which all came straight from the source. I can be pretty certain that those collectors would not have shared those recordings had they been aware of Queenzone. They shared them elsewhere (Dime, TTD), because there are quality standards at those websites. There is not a chance that they simply chose Dime and TTD for no apparent reason.
As for QZ itself, how many new sources of recordings from collectors with quality standards have popped up here in the last few years? My count is at zero (silver rips don't count). Perhaps that Leiden 84 alternate source counts? I can't think of any others.
Collectors of most bands happily share everything they have. Of course, there will always be Stones, Who, Zeppelin, etc. collectors who will sit on recordings for decades, but I have never seen other collectors hang onto even the most insignificant recordings like Queen collectors do. Dealing with these select European Queen collectors does not give one the entire picture of what trading communities are, and what th
Well, is there any volunteer to create a new website out there ?
Shouldn't we talk first to the webmaster of Queenzone to know what he thinks about that and what is said about Queenzone, or what he could do to solve that problem ?
Richard, please help us !!
Olivier,
France.
Shouldn't we talk first to the webmaster of Queenzone to know what he thinks about that and what is said about Queenzone, or what he could do to solve that problem ?
Richard, please help us !!
Olivier,
France.
I think Sir GH said it best earlier in this thread, it's been over a year since this topic was started and very little has changed. It's quite a shame that some people are too stubborn or unwilling to change and we all suffer as a result of it. It feels like we are in an argument with fundamentalist christians.
Pfff...I give up, there's nothing more that can be said, you won't hear me on this issue anymore.
Pfff...I give up, there's nothing more that can be said, you won't hear me on this issue anymore.
From Bob's 10/11/2007 12:18 AM post on page 4 ...
"But that's the thing... we're not going to please everyone. It's time to be blunt:
We need to weed out those who are pro-mp3."
Sounds like a Flac Nazi to me.
"But that's the thing... we're not going to please everyone. It's time to be blunt:
We need to weed out those who are pro-mp3."
Sounds like a Flac Nazi to me.
FLAC wins.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Gym Bitch wrote: [/QUOTENAME]From Bob's 10/11/2007 12:18 AM post on page 4 ...
"But that's the thing... we're not going to please everyone. It's time to be blunt:
We need to weed out those who are pro-mp3."
Sounds like a Flac Nazi to me.
[/QUOTE]
The thing is, I dropped the ball on this one. I was assigned to exterminate you, but I let you slip away. Bob already took care of tigger, and on my way up has Ted's ashes in his firepit. We let a couple slip between the cracks, but rest assured the majority of the mp3 lovers have been eradicated and now the superior flac race can prosper.
Heil,
Joe
"But that's the thing... we're not going to please everyone. It's time to be blunt:
We need to weed out those who are pro-mp3."
Sounds like a Flac Nazi to me.
[/QUOTE]
The thing is, I dropped the ball on this one. I was assigned to exterminate you, but I let you slip away. Bob already took care of tigger, and on my way up has Ted's ashes in his firepit. We let a couple slip between the cracks, but rest assured the majority of the mp3 lovers have been eradicated and now the superior flac race can prosper.
Heil,
Joe
lol!
Ah, man... maybe that's taking it a bit too far!
Ah, man... maybe that's taking it a bit too far!
Joe, Bob, I know what irony is. I even confess that I smiled for a second about the profile image. But please, let's not make fun of something as trivial as a file format by using symbols or terms on whose behalf more than 6,000,000 people were killed and much more traumatized – till today.
Lets call the one group sophisticated or altruistic and the other one lazy and ignorant, but "nazis", "eradication" or "heil" doesn't fit.
Lets call the one group sophisticated or altruistic and the other one lazy and ignorant, but "nazis", "eradication" or "heil" doesn't fit.
I agree, Nummer2. I am shocked about the all-time low a discussion on Queenzone has reached. It's just about a file format, how can anyone cause distress to other people by posting a Nazi symbol and use Nazi language only because users do not follow the wishes of the flac supporters?
I understand that some people are young and/or uneducated but we all should agree that hate language has no place on a board like this.
I understand that some people are young and/or uneducated but we all should agree that hate language has no place on a board like this.
I quite agree with the last posts, the Nazis symbol has nothing to do with the Flac and mp3 battle, it just goes a little bit too far, everybody and espacially here in western Europe can attest that it is a very strong image charged with negative feeling.
On the other hand, I understand the frustration and I am myself quite frustrated concerning the Flac or mp3 "battle", as it became a real battle indeed. Just try not to kill ourselves...
So well, he chooses the nazis symbol, a good point is that it makes us talk about it and be more concerned with the danger of mp3 sharing (once again, only when a lossless version exists already, in the other cases mp3 can be OK !).
I'm with you guys, and even if I'm more pacifist in my terms and image, I more than agree with these ideas. so it a sort of "Don't try to make me rise up in arms, I don't want to read "killed in action" on my gravestone...". If we have to "battle", we can do it peacefully. If we have to choose a solution and everybody is against us, then, let's find one!
Sorry for the Flac Nazi image, I won't call that stupid but I know some will do it. The IDEA behind that is far from stupid. Just excuse him and remember that some of the world political leaders or major businessmen had trouble with bad communication and so on. Excuse him and see the idea behind, that's the important point, don't deviate from this. If you missed the point, well just read the lasts posts in this thread and in other recent ones too. And in other less recent ones. And... Well I think you got the point now !
Real problem needs real solutions. Time is going on and nothing moves, when it really has to do quickly. It leads to bad communication. But the idea is still here and can be debated.
So let's talk about the ideas now and don't care the symbol...
Regards,
Olivier,
France.
PS : Bob, I found a name for a new Queen website, www.sheerflackattack.com, isn't it lovely ? Any volunteer ?
On the other hand, I understand the frustration and I am myself quite frustrated concerning the Flac or mp3 "battle", as it became a real battle indeed. Just try not to kill ourselves...
So well, he chooses the nazis symbol, a good point is that it makes us talk about it and be more concerned with the danger of mp3 sharing (once again, only when a lossless version exists already, in the other cases mp3 can be OK !).
I'm with you guys, and even if I'm more pacifist in my terms and image, I more than agree with these ideas. so it a sort of "Don't try to make me rise up in arms, I don't want to read "killed in action" on my gravestone...". If we have to "battle", we can do it peacefully. If we have to choose a solution and everybody is against us, then, let's find one!
Sorry for the Flac Nazi image, I won't call that stupid but I know some will do it. The IDEA behind that is far from stupid. Just excuse him and remember that some of the world political leaders or major businessmen had trouble with bad communication and so on. Excuse him and see the idea behind, that's the important point, don't deviate from this. If you missed the point, well just read the lasts posts in this thread and in other recent ones too. And in other less recent ones. And... Well I think you got the point now !
Real problem needs real solutions. Time is going on and nothing moves, when it really has to do quickly. It leads to bad communication. But the idea is still here and can be debated.
So let's talk about the ideas now and don't care the symbol...
Regards,
Olivier,
France.
PS : Bob, I found a name for a new Queen website, www.sheerflackattack.com, isn't it lovely ? Any volunteer ?