[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]- Horsie Clarkson - wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Raf840 wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]- Horsie Clarkson - wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Raf840 wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]- Horsie Clarkson - wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
I must criticize any guitarist who doesn't play clean at all, Jimmy Page is the personification of mediocrity. [/QUOTE]
Why?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Raf840 wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]- Horsie Clarkson - wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
Slow of fast is the same, it doesn't matter the speed. The point is playing correctly, and "correctly" and "Jimmy Page" aren't things you put together in a sentence.[/QUOTE]
How can YOU tell whether he's playing HIS songs correctly on record or not?
And before you come up with all the theory bullshit - how can he be "wrong" yet lots of people still love his work? It may sound bad to YOU, but that's simply your personal opinion.
Music isn't a competition to see who's faster or more accurate, music is about putting good sounds together, and Page did that much better than many people who think they just need to learn how to play two-hand tapping at 240bpm.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Raf840 wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]- Horsie Clarkson - wrote: [/QUOTENAME]So, according to you, if crappy musicians can be legengs too and deserve respect for that... then bad musicians don't exist. You can't argue with me because as we're all the same, you can't be right. We'd be ALL wrong.[/QUOTE]
If you think "crappy" means "who doesn't use lots of different technique" and "good" means "very technical", then I think YOU are mediocre. [/QUOTE]
Good means "without mistakes". It doesn't mean fast, doesn't mean highly technical. Just "without mistakes".
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Raf840 wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]- Horsie Clarkson - wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
So next time someone says "JOHNNY RAMONE IS A BETTER SINGER THAN IAN GILLIAN" you must say "YES, SIR", for fuckwits can be legens too, so you can't argue.
[/QUOTE]
Johnny Ramone never needed to prove he could sing - he was a guitarist. [/QUOTE]
That's my point.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Raf840 wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]- Horsie Clarkson - wrote: [/QUOTENAME]PS: You'll take led zep over Steve Vai just because you're a moron that obviously can't tell holy perfection from CRAP.
:)[/QUOTE]
Stupidest remark I've heard in ages. You surprise me sometimes.[/QUOTE]Howerver, you never surprise me, honestly.[/QUOTE]
I rest my case, you make yourself look like a big joke, I don't need to do much. :)[/QUOTE]What's up? Don't know how to answer?
;)[/QUOTE]
Read your own arguments... *rolls eyes* If those are your "points", I think you either know nothing about music or nothing about arguing.
How about you try seriously to beat my arguments first, and then I'll try to beat your new ones?
Thread
Posts in chronological order
Oh cool, this argument again
FUCK STEVE VAI. Yawn yawn FUCKING YAWN. What a player, what an incredible goddamn player, I haven't seen many guys play like that - except for every shmuck who's ever been ripped off into buying a JEM.
Whooopdeedoo, he's excellent at what he does. So is the average juggler who spends 10 hours practicing his craft. It doesn't make it art, it doesn't make it interesting, it just makes it a really awesome trick, and you sit there going "WOW, he must've practiced ages to do that".
Oh look, 'Tender Surrender'.... WHOOPDEE DOO. I'll quietly forget that it's all an adaptation of a Hendrix progression, just because he spent ages practicing the fast bits.
If I ever see another JEM, I'm going to grab it and break the thing. Carry handles?? What the fuck. The last guy I knew that had one of those was 30, bald, and a boring cunt. Dating a 16 year old.
I'll smash HIS one, thankyou very much. He was a life-ruining idiot.
Nevermind the fact that the guitar itself is a one-way ticket to homogeny. I have to see if I can find that thing where someone fooled a JEM player in a blindfold test with a Squire.
Actually, fuck this Vai vs. Page thing, I don't care. What I really want to know is - why the hell is Slash so famous?
Achilles Last Stand is an awesome song, someone uploaded a '78 version of it on Youtube, and I don't think I've ever heard Bonzo go so nuts. Top form, top form.
Not that I stand up for Jimmy Page in any shape way or form. What's the use? "Oh he sucks" or "He is GOD", makes little difference, he's still sitting on a sofa that costs more than my house. Same for Steve Vai.
Our Horsie friend here (and I've had this conversation before, but I'm repeating it for you guys who are repeating yourselves) is just bitter that Jimmy Page made it so Goddamn huge when he wasn't as good as John Mcloughlin (now THERE is a player).
It's a ratio of skill vs. success, and it gets up some peoples noses to know that Jimmy Page made it that big and is loved by so many players, when he couldn't play anything from the Bill and Ted soundtrack.
I do somewhat understand this line of thinking, but I think there are better targets of frustration.
I don't ever want to hear you bitch about Jimmy Page again until you have a good long go at Noel Gallagher. << You know, talentless fuck, hasn't written a decent tune in around twelve years, had the opportunity of playing with PETE FUCKING TOWNSHEND AT THE ALBERT HALL, and STILL managed to sound like total crap?
Jimmy Page at least HAD some glory days, he was a servicable blues guitarist at one time. So the 70's drug culture got the better of him, big deal...
Man, stomping a JEM would give me great satisfaction. It's not even a real guitar.
I don't *really* think that, but boy I'd love to say it to this guy that I used to know. Say it right to his goddamn ugly pedophile face.
Fuck "For the Love of God". Can anyone in here even remember how it goes?
Oh cool - sustainer pickup! Yipee. I like a guitar solo I can sing along with,
speaking of which - Brian May! I got an answer from him the other day, on the subject of releasing a 12 string Red Special.
It probably won't have enough interest to ever get done, in which case I'm going to do it myself.
*ahem* Sorry, I've been drinking and I'm a bit off at the moment.
But yeah, fuck this argument. You guys (Raf and Horsie) are being total cocks. It's not that you don't have valid arguments, it's that you're making emotional statements and not appropriate examples.
Like Horsie - okay, you're crying because some guy who you say you're better than managed to make millions of dollars,
but why don't you complain about guitarists that were worse than him? Sex Pistols, go for it. I've always hated the Sex Pistols.
And Raf....
I actually can't fault you, but for Christ's sake, you don't need to defend Jimmy Page. Either he sucks or he doesn't. Big deal.
FUCK STEVE VAI. Yawn yawn FUCKING YAWN. What a player, what an incredible goddamn player, I haven't seen many guys play like that - except for every shmuck who's ever been ripped off into buying a JEM.
Whooopdeedoo, he's excellent at what he does. So is the average juggler who spends 10 hours practicing his craft. It doesn't make it art, it doesn't make it interesting, it just makes it a really awesome trick, and you sit there going "WOW, he must've practiced ages to do that".
Oh look, 'Tender Surrender'.... WHOOPDEE DOO. I'll quietly forget that it's all an adaptation of a Hendrix progression, just because he spent ages practicing the fast bits.
If I ever see another JEM, I'm going to grab it and break the thing. Carry handles?? What the fuck. The last guy I knew that had one of those was 30, bald, and a boring cunt. Dating a 16 year old.
I'll smash HIS one, thankyou very much. He was a life-ruining idiot.
Nevermind the fact that the guitar itself is a one-way ticket to homogeny. I have to see if I can find that thing where someone fooled a JEM player in a blindfold test with a Squire.
Actually, fuck this Vai vs. Page thing, I don't care. What I really want to know is - why the hell is Slash so famous?
Achilles Last Stand is an awesome song, someone uploaded a '78 version of it on Youtube, and I don't think I've ever heard Bonzo go so nuts. Top form, top form.
Not that I stand up for Jimmy Page in any shape way or form. What's the use? "Oh he sucks" or "He is GOD", makes little difference, he's still sitting on a sofa that costs more than my house. Same for Steve Vai.
Our Horsie friend here (and I've had this conversation before, but I'm repeating it for you guys who are repeating yourselves) is just bitter that Jimmy Page made it so Goddamn huge when he wasn't as good as John Mcloughlin (now THERE is a player).
It's a ratio of skill vs. success, and it gets up some peoples noses to know that Jimmy Page made it that big and is loved by so many players, when he couldn't play anything from the Bill and Ted soundtrack.
I do somewhat understand this line of thinking, but I think there are better targets of frustration.
I don't ever want to hear you bitch about Jimmy Page again until you have a good long go at Noel Gallagher. << You know, talentless fuck, hasn't written a decent tune in around twelve years, had the opportunity of playing with PETE FUCKING TOWNSHEND AT THE ALBERT HALL, and STILL managed to sound like total crap?
Jimmy Page at least HAD some glory days, he was a servicable blues guitarist at one time. So the 70's drug culture got the better of him, big deal...
Man, stomping a JEM would give me great satisfaction. It's not even a real guitar.
I don't *really* think that, but boy I'd love to say it to this guy that I used to know. Say it right to his goddamn ugly pedophile face.
Fuck "For the Love of God". Can anyone in here even remember how it goes?
Oh cool - sustainer pickup! Yipee. I like a guitar solo I can sing along with,
speaking of which - Brian May! I got an answer from him the other day, on the subject of releasing a 12 string Red Special.
It probably won't have enough interest to ever get done, in which case I'm going to do it myself.
*ahem* Sorry, I've been drinking and I'm a bit off at the moment.
But yeah, fuck this argument. You guys (Raf and Horsie) are being total cocks. It's not that you don't have valid arguments, it's that you're making emotional statements and not appropriate examples.
Like Horsie - okay, you're crying because some guy who you say you're better than managed to make millions of dollars,
but why don't you complain about guitarists that were worse than him? Sex Pistols, go for it. I've always hated the Sex Pistols.
And Raf....
I actually can't fault you, but for Christ's sake, you don't need to defend Jimmy Page. Either he sucks or he doesn't. Big deal.
No, fuck YOU.
Steve Vai is a killer composer. There are not stupid guitar players out there who can write songs like Taurus Bulba, Whispering a Prayer or The Riddle and play them as flawlessly as Steve. Nobody.
When it's "too advanced" or "too technical" for you, it means you're a poor moron that can't understand it. You better stick with Page's stuff and his basic pentatonic licks, played wrong.
Steve Vai. The best.
Steve Vai is a killer composer. There are not stupid guitar players out there who can write songs like Taurus Bulba, Whispering a Prayer or The Riddle and play them as flawlessly as Steve. Nobody.
When it's "too advanced" or "too technical" for you, it means you're a poor moron that can't understand it. You better stick with Page's stuff and his basic pentatonic licks, played wrong.
Steve Vai. The best.
"There are not stupid guitar players out there who can write songs like Taurus Bulba, Whispering a Prayer or The Riddle and play them as flawlessly as Steve. Nobody."
Nobody wants to. What would be the point of that? Can you imagine having six of Steve Vai? He'd feel put out.
"When it's "too advanced" or "too technical" for you, it means you're a poor moron that can't understand it. "
EEEERRRRRRR BZZZZZT FUCKING BBBBBZZZZZZZZT WRONG
Mahavishnu.
"Steve Vai. The best."
One of. There's a world of music out there, keep listening.
Nobody wants to. What would be the point of that? Can you imagine having six of Steve Vai? He'd feel put out.
"When it's "too advanced" or "too technical" for you, it means you're a poor moron that can't understand it. "
EEEERRRRRRR BZZZZZT FUCKING BBBBBZZZZZZZZT WRONG
Mahavishnu.
"Steve Vai. The best."
One of. There's a world of music out there, keep listening.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b>- Horsie Clarkson - wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<font color=666600><b>Music Man wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Some people think of the guitar as a game, whereas others think of the guitar as an instrument. It's a shame, because one will never amount to much as a musician until he embraces the latter.[/QUOTE]
That's true.
Jimmy Page:
"I'm not a guitarist as far as technician goes."
Steve Vai:
"I used to practice up to six hours a day."
See? Who does really care about being a good guitarist and who is an idiot? Who plays flawlessly and who is lucky when he actually plays something right?[/QUOTE]
Maybe some people are just naturally good and some people need to practice more in order to be that good.
That's true.
Jimmy Page:
"I'm not a guitarist as far as technician goes."
Steve Vai:
"I used to practice up to six hours a day."
See? Who does really care about being a good guitarist and who is an idiot? Who plays flawlessly and who is lucky when he actually plays something right?[/QUOTE]
Maybe some people are just naturally good and some people need to practice more in order to be that good.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b>- Horsie Clarkson - wrote: [/QUOTENAME]So, according to you, if crappy musicians can be legengs... blah blah blah[/QUOTE]
You're choosing to label him as a crappy musician because he isn't a technically proficient guitarist. Being a musician consists of the technical, creative, and intuitive sides - and how you apply them.
And then there's the influence. Page has influenced tens of millions of musicians. He wasn't just about the music. He had these majestic and mystical sides to him as well which became known through his music and the image he put across. Music isn't just about the notes and the theoretical structures. It's about creating atmosphere, and maximizing the number of people that can get submerged into it. Whether or not you have technical ability is always secondary to that.
[QUOTE]Don't get philosophical with me, okay?[/QUOTE]
I absolutely WILL. That's what music is all about. Every musician and fan of music has their own philosophies about what's important to them, and what creates a good song. There is no book of rules that states which of those thoughts are inherently right and which are inherently wrong. That's what makes art an art. It's not a science that you can dissect to create absolutes.
[QUOTE]PS: You'll take led zep over Steve Vai just because you're a moron that obviously can't tell holy perfection from CRAP.[/QUOTE]
I'm happy you've found something that you see as holy perfection, as it's necessary for musicians to admire things and be inspired by them. But being dogmatic about your musical opinions and condeming others for theirs isn't going to get you anywhere. Has it?
[QUOTE]You can practice 10 hours a day for 5 years and you'll end up gettin accuracy. Yes, most likely.
Or you could be Jimmy Page, play for more than 30 years and still don't get how to play correctly.[/QUOTE]
Great, as long as you value practicing and accuracy. But not everyone does. I know musicians who are twice your age and have had plenty of success and experience in the business - and they don't have half of your technical knowledge. They don't need it. Having the right attitude and ability to adapt to as many musical situations as possible are what will bring you success in music. Again, the technical side is secondary to that.
I was once 18 too, and I thought that the guys who had really technical music were the best. And then one day I listened to Stevie Wonder's stuff from the 70s, and realized that a technically proficient musician could create quality songs that endured for decades. You can't say the same for Vai. He is a musician for musicians. As a musician myself, I appreciate Vai, but I fully understand (and I'm sure he too fully understands) that he's over the heads of pretty much everyone else. And that's ultimately not a good thing.
Page could have chosen to practice for six hours a day. But he didn't, because he didn't have to. He had a gift for creating music that most people didn't have. Music is all about connecting with as many people as possible, not being esoteric and over the heads of most. Anyone can learn musical theory and become a technically proficient player, but not everyone can create music that has connected with people for generations. That's why Page is ultimately the better musician, and why he'll be remembered a hundred years from now.
[QUOTE]When it's "too advanced" or "too technical" for you, it means you're a poor moron that can't understand it. You better stick with Page's stuff and his basic pentatonic licks, played wrong.[/QUOTE]
You are in the same field as the select classical and jazz snobs who scowl at people who aren't at their level of technical understanding and/or ability, as if that's the most important thing. You will not get anywhere with that attitude, I can assure you. Maybe you should join Treasure Moment. Your two completely different breeds of musical arr
You're choosing to label him as a crappy musician because he isn't a technically proficient guitarist. Being a musician consists of the technical, creative, and intuitive sides - and how you apply them.
And then there's the influence. Page has influenced tens of millions of musicians. He wasn't just about the music. He had these majestic and mystical sides to him as well which became known through his music and the image he put across. Music isn't just about the notes and the theoretical structures. It's about creating atmosphere, and maximizing the number of people that can get submerged into it. Whether or not you have technical ability is always secondary to that.
[QUOTE]Don't get philosophical with me, okay?[/QUOTE]
I absolutely WILL. That's what music is all about. Every musician and fan of music has their own philosophies about what's important to them, and what creates a good song. There is no book of rules that states which of those thoughts are inherently right and which are inherently wrong. That's what makes art an art. It's not a science that you can dissect to create absolutes.
[QUOTE]PS: You'll take led zep over Steve Vai just because you're a moron that obviously can't tell holy perfection from CRAP.[/QUOTE]
I'm happy you've found something that you see as holy perfection, as it's necessary for musicians to admire things and be inspired by them. But being dogmatic about your musical opinions and condeming others for theirs isn't going to get you anywhere. Has it?
[QUOTE]You can practice 10 hours a day for 5 years and you'll end up gettin accuracy. Yes, most likely.
Or you could be Jimmy Page, play for more than 30 years and still don't get how to play correctly.[/QUOTE]
Great, as long as you value practicing and accuracy. But not everyone does. I know musicians who are twice your age and have had plenty of success and experience in the business - and they don't have half of your technical knowledge. They don't need it. Having the right attitude and ability to adapt to as many musical situations as possible are what will bring you success in music. Again, the technical side is secondary to that.
I was once 18 too, and I thought that the guys who had really technical music were the best. And then one day I listened to Stevie Wonder's stuff from the 70s, and realized that a technically proficient musician could create quality songs that endured for decades. You can't say the same for Vai. He is a musician for musicians. As a musician myself, I appreciate Vai, but I fully understand (and I'm sure he too fully understands) that he's over the heads of pretty much everyone else. And that's ultimately not a good thing.
Page could have chosen to practice for six hours a day. But he didn't, because he didn't have to. He had a gift for creating music that most people didn't have. Music is all about connecting with as many people as possible, not being esoteric and over the heads of most. Anyone can learn musical theory and become a technically proficient player, but not everyone can create music that has connected with people for generations. That's why Page is ultimately the better musician, and why he'll be remembered a hundred years from now.
[QUOTE]When it's "too advanced" or "too technical" for you, it means you're a poor moron that can't understand it. You better stick with Page's stuff and his basic pentatonic licks, played wrong.[/QUOTE]
You are in the same field as the select classical and jazz snobs who scowl at people who aren't at their level of technical understanding and/or ability, as if that's the most important thing. You will not get anywhere with that attitude, I can assure you. Maybe you should join Treasure Moment. Your two completely different breeds of musical arr
I would add David Gilmour with his solo in Comfortably Numb, the PULSE version for example.
Oh snap, the hammer has officially been dropped by Sir GH.
Thanks for playing, everyone.
Thanks for playing, everyone.
"You better stick with Page's stuff and his basic pentatonic licks, played wrong."
Having had a while to think about the thread, I sure hope this wasn't aimed at me. 'Sticking' with Page would imply that I was there in the first place. I was merely pointing out that there's musicians out there that are more deserving of shallow criticism.
"He had a gift for creating music that most people didn't have. Music is all about connecting with as many people as possible, not being esoteric and over the heads of most."
Too fucking right. I had about seven songs on the internet last year and only one of them got a consistent response, as far as people 'feeling' what I was expressing. It's fucking hard. And it certainly wasn't the flashiest playing I'd ever done, either. It was all bloody ad-lib!!
"You can't say the same for Vai. He is a musician for musicians. As a musician myself, I appreciate Vai, but I fully understand (and I'm sure he too fully understands) that he's over the heads of pretty much everyone else."
I don't think it's right to assume that anyone who doesn't like Steve Vai's music, feels that way simply because it's over their heads. I listen to simpler stuff, I listen to more complex stuff... it's just a matter of taste. If Steve Vai were perfect, or were God, then his music would touch everyone, me included. It doesn't touch me. I don't think he's crap, it just does little for me. He's FM and I'm AM, or something. I don't know.
meh
Having had a while to think about the thread, I sure hope this wasn't aimed at me. 'Sticking' with Page would imply that I was there in the first place. I was merely pointing out that there's musicians out there that are more deserving of shallow criticism.
"He had a gift for creating music that most people didn't have. Music is all about connecting with as many people as possible, not being esoteric and over the heads of most."
Too fucking right. I had about seven songs on the internet last year and only one of them got a consistent response, as far as people 'feeling' what I was expressing. It's fucking hard. And it certainly wasn't the flashiest playing I'd ever done, either. It was all bloody ad-lib!!
"You can't say the same for Vai. He is a musician for musicians. As a musician myself, I appreciate Vai, but I fully understand (and I'm sure he too fully understands) that he's over the heads of pretty much everyone else."
I don't think it's right to assume that anyone who doesn't like Steve Vai's music, feels that way simply because it's over their heads. I listen to simpler stuff, I listen to more complex stuff... it's just a matter of taste. If Steve Vai were perfect, or were God, then his music would touch everyone, me included. It doesn't touch me. I don't think he's crap, it just does little for me. He's FM and I'm AM, or something. I don't know.
meh
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b>- Horsie Clarkson - wrote: [/QUOTENAME]So, according to you, if crappy musicians can be legengs... blah blah blah[/QUOTE]
You're choosing to label him as a crappy musician because he isn't a technically proficient guitarist. Being a musician consists of the technical, creative, and intuitive sides - and how you apply them.
And then there's the influence. Page has influenced tens of millions of musicians. He wasn't just about the music. He had these majestic and mystical sides to him as well which became known through his music and the image he put across. Music isn't just about the notes and the theoretical structures. It's about creating atmosphere, and maximizing the number of people that can get submerged into it. Whether or not you have technical ability is always secondary to that.[/QUOTE]That's the difference: you're talking about musicians as a whole, I'm only talking about playing.
I'm not dissing Page for not being technically proficient but for being an utter crap. He never fails to surprise me with his sloppiness (which seems unlimited).
There's a difference between not being great and not being able to play 3 chords without going out of tempo or fucking up. The first one may not be amazing but he might be a good player anyway, the latter surely can't be one of the best players ever.
Music is not JUST about notes and "theoretical structures" but I guess that's the most basic thing to start with.
It is not about creating atmospheres either. If you don't want to, you're not supposed to either. And it is certainly not about maximizing the number of people that can get submerged into it.
I say that the technical side is the first thing a musician should worry about. It's about respecting your work and respecting the people, I'm not talking about a mistake or two but about the obvious case of Jimmy Page that can't even play what he tries to. Whatever you do with your work after that, it's your business but AT LEAST it should be a competent work played decently.
People that get submerged into something THAT sloppy it's because they can't notice the sloppiness. It's not that they don't care, how could you "not care" if you actually noticed it?
(NOT TO MENTION ROBERT PLANT GOING OUT OF FUCKING TUNE)
I'll stick to the music I like which at least it's played correctly. Again, correctly doesn't mean highly technical, it means that it has no mistakes.
It makes me wanna cry that people think the term "played correctly" means "TOO TOO TOO DAMN TECHNICAL."
It's like they can't conceive the idea of playing correctly, like it's something impossible for the average player.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b>- Horsie Clarkson - wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Don't get philosophical with me, okay?[/QUOTE]
I absolutely WILL. That's what music is all about. Every musician and fan of music has their own philosophies about what's important to them, and what creates a good song. There is no book of rules that states which of those thoughts are inherently right and which are inherently wrong. That's what makes art an art. It's not a science that you can dissect to create absolutes.[/QUOTE]
It has its technical side on theory too. There are a lot of absolutes in music.
Philosophy would be great when debating about two works correctly played. I do believe that's when it comes into it.
But we're talking about someone less than incompetent, there's no room for philosophies trying to justify his lack of skills.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b>- Horsie Clarkson - wrote: [/QUOTENAME]PS: You'll take led zep over Steve Vai just because you're a moron that obviously can't tell holy perfection from CRAP
You're choosing to label him as a crappy musician because he isn't a technically proficient guitarist. Being a musician consists of the technical, creative, and intuitive sides - and how you apply them.
And then there's the influence. Page has influenced tens of millions of musicians. He wasn't just about the music. He had these majestic and mystical sides to him as well which became known through his music and the image he put across. Music isn't just about the notes and the theoretical structures. It's about creating atmosphere, and maximizing the number of people that can get submerged into it. Whether or not you have technical ability is always secondary to that.[/QUOTE]That's the difference: you're talking about musicians as a whole, I'm only talking about playing.
I'm not dissing Page for not being technically proficient but for being an utter crap. He never fails to surprise me with his sloppiness (which seems unlimited).
There's a difference between not being great and not being able to play 3 chords without going out of tempo or fucking up. The first one may not be amazing but he might be a good player anyway, the latter surely can't be one of the best players ever.
Music is not JUST about notes and "theoretical structures" but I guess that's the most basic thing to start with.
It is not about creating atmospheres either. If you don't want to, you're not supposed to either. And it is certainly not about maximizing the number of people that can get submerged into it.
I say that the technical side is the first thing a musician should worry about. It's about respecting your work and respecting the people, I'm not talking about a mistake or two but about the obvious case of Jimmy Page that can't even play what he tries to. Whatever you do with your work after that, it's your business but AT LEAST it should be a competent work played decently.
People that get submerged into something THAT sloppy it's because they can't notice the sloppiness. It's not that they don't care, how could you "not care" if you actually noticed it?
(NOT TO MENTION ROBERT PLANT GOING OUT OF FUCKING TUNE)
I'll stick to the music I like which at least it's played correctly. Again, correctly doesn't mean highly technical, it means that it has no mistakes.
It makes me wanna cry that people think the term "played correctly" means "TOO TOO TOO DAMN TECHNICAL."
It's like they can't conceive the idea of playing correctly, like it's something impossible for the average player.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b>- Horsie Clarkson - wrote: [/QUOTENAME]Don't get philosophical with me, okay?[/QUOTE]
I absolutely WILL. That's what music is all about. Every musician and fan of music has their own philosophies about what's important to them, and what creates a good song. There is no book of rules that states which of those thoughts are inherently right and which are inherently wrong. That's what makes art an art. It's not a science that you can dissect to create absolutes.[/QUOTE]
It has its technical side on theory too. There are a lot of absolutes in music.
Philosophy would be great when debating about two works correctly played. I do believe that's when it comes into it.
But we're talking about someone less than incompetent, there's no room for philosophies trying to justify his lack of skills.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: [/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b>- Horsie Clarkson - wrote: [/QUOTENAME]PS: You'll take led zep over Steve Vai just because you're a moron that obviously can't tell holy perfection from CRAP
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:
[/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b>- Horsie Clarkson - wrote: [/QUOTENAME]You can
practice 10 hours a day for 5 years and you'll end up gettin accuracy. Yes, most
likely.
Or you could be Jimmy Page, play for more than 30 years and still don't get how
to play correctly.[/QUOTE]
Great, as long as you value practicing and accuracy. But not everyone does. I
know musicians who are twice your age and have had plenty of success and
experience in the business - and they don't have half of your technical
knowledge. They don't need it. Having the right attitude and ability to adapt
to as many musical situations as possible are what will bring you success in
music. Again, the technical side is secondary to that.
I was once 18 too, and I thought that the guys who had really technical music
were the best. And then one day I listened to Stevie Wonder's stuff from the
70s, and realized that a technically proficient musician could create quality
songs that endured for decades. You can't say the same for Vai. He is a
musician for musicians. As a musician myself, I appreciate Vai, but I fully
understand (and I'm sure he too fully understands) that he's over the heads of
pretty much everyone else. And that's ultimately not a good thing.
Page could have chosen to practice for six hours a day. But he didn't, because
he didn't have to. He had a gift for creating music that most people didn't
have. Music is all about connecting with as many people as possible, not being
esoteric and over the heads of most. Anyone can learn musical theory and become
a technically proficient player, but not everyone can create music that has
connected with people for generations. That's why Page is ultimately the better
musician, and why he'll be remembered a hundred years from now.[/QUOTE]
Then, you're just saying that success doesn't mean a thing. It just means that
people liked it. People often choose a solo played wrong like Stairway To Heaven
over something amazingly played like Bo Rhap. People know shit about music. If
they knew, we wouldn't be studying. What for?
You study to learn, because you don't know. Most people know shit about music and
don't understand anything at all.
Page could have chosen to practice for six hours a day, but he didn't. And the result is obvious. Whether he creates good music or not is not what we're discussing (I do think that his songs are very primitive too, but that's another story). He may be remembered as one of the best guitar players, that doesn't mean it's true. At least I know he's one sloppy talentless player.
Fuck people, I have my own opinion!!
And not everyone can become a technically proficient player. Is not so easy. The difference between Eric Johnson and Jimmy Page is not just a few years of practice. There's MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCH more involved in it than just that. It's like disrespecting the music, the effort and the gift those guys obviously have.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:
[/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b>- Horsie Clarkson - wrote: [/QUOTENAME]When it's
"too advanced" or "too technical" for you, it means you're a poor moron that
can't understand it. You better stick with Page's stuff and his basic pentatonic
licks, played wrong.[/QUOTE]
You are in the same field as the select classical and jazz snobs who scowl at
people who aren't at their level of technical understanding and/or ability, as if
that's the most important thing. You will not get anywhere with that attitude, I
assure you. Maybe you should join Treasure Moment. Your two completely
different breeds of musical arrogance would surely be an interesting combination.
[/QUOTE]
I might not get anywhere, that's
[/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b>- Horsie Clarkson - wrote: [/QUOTENAME]You can
practice 10 hours a day for 5 years and you'll end up gettin accuracy. Yes, most
likely.
Or you could be Jimmy Page, play for more than 30 years and still don't get how
to play correctly.[/QUOTE]
Great, as long as you value practicing and accuracy. But not everyone does. I
know musicians who are twice your age and have had plenty of success and
experience in the business - and they don't have half of your technical
knowledge. They don't need it. Having the right attitude and ability to adapt
to as many musical situations as possible are what will bring you success in
music. Again, the technical side is secondary to that.
I was once 18 too, and I thought that the guys who had really technical music
were the best. And then one day I listened to Stevie Wonder's stuff from the
70s, and realized that a technically proficient musician could create quality
songs that endured for decades. You can't say the same for Vai. He is a
musician for musicians. As a musician myself, I appreciate Vai, but I fully
understand (and I'm sure he too fully understands) that he's over the heads of
pretty much everyone else. And that's ultimately not a good thing.
Page could have chosen to practice for six hours a day. But he didn't, because
he didn't have to. He had a gift for creating music that most people didn't
have. Music is all about connecting with as many people as possible, not being
esoteric and over the heads of most. Anyone can learn musical theory and become
a technically proficient player, but not everyone can create music that has
connected with people for generations. That's why Page is ultimately the better
musician, and why he'll be remembered a hundred years from now.[/QUOTE]
Then, you're just saying that success doesn't mean a thing. It just means that
people liked it. People often choose a solo played wrong like Stairway To Heaven
over something amazingly played like Bo Rhap. People know shit about music. If
they knew, we wouldn't be studying. What for?
You study to learn, because you don't know. Most people know shit about music and
don't understand anything at all.
Page could have chosen to practice for six hours a day, but he didn't. And the result is obvious. Whether he creates good music or not is not what we're discussing (I do think that his songs are very primitive too, but that's another story). He may be remembered as one of the best guitar players, that doesn't mean it's true. At least I know he's one sloppy talentless player.
Fuck people, I have my own opinion!!
And not everyone can become a technically proficient player. Is not so easy. The difference between Eric Johnson and Jimmy Page is not just a few years of practice. There's MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCH more involved in it than just that. It's like disrespecting the music, the effort and the gift those guys obviously have.
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:
[/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b>- Horsie Clarkson - wrote: [/QUOTENAME]When it's
"too advanced" or "too technical" for you, it means you're a poor moron that
can't understand it. You better stick with Page's stuff and his basic pentatonic
licks, played wrong.[/QUOTE]
You are in the same field as the select classical and jazz snobs who scowl at
people who aren't at their level of technical understanding and/or ability, as if
that's the most important thing. You will not get anywhere with that attitude, I
assure you. Maybe you should join Treasure Moment. Your two completely
different breeds of musical arrogance would surely be an interesting combination.
[/QUOTE]
I might not get anywhere, that's
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b>- Horsie Clarkson - wrote:
People often choose a solo played wrong like Stairway To Heaven over something amazingly played like Bo Rhap. People know shit about music. [/QUOTE]
- I prefer Bohemian Rhapsody - but it's a matter of personal opinion. I like Stairway to Heaven too, and I think both of them are brilliant.
- "Played wrong", says who? You? Vai? The late Chopin? Elizabeth II? The Pope? It's Jimmy Page's solo, who can say it's wrong other than Page himself...? In the studio you can record a hundred takes if necessary. If he released that take, that means he was happy with that. Just because YOU choose to follow certain standards, it doesn't mean everybody needs to follow the same standards. It's YOUR OPINION that songs must be played with every single note belonging to the same scale on the same key, fitting perfectly in the bar, bla bla bla de bla. It's his guitar, he plays it the way he wants it. It's our money, we buy the albums we want. It's our taste, we'll listen to whatever we enjoy.
How would you judge Japanese music, that follows a scale with more than 50 different notes? Is that wrong, as it's not what people in the XVIII century played in Vienna?
[QUOTE]You study to learn, because you don't know. Most people know shit about music and don't understand anything at all.[/QUOTE]
You study lots, you know lots, but you don't understand it. :)
[QUOTE]Page could have chosen to practice for six hours a day, but he didn't. And the result is obvious. Whether he creates good music or not is not what we're discussing (I do think that his songs are very primitive too, but that's another story). He may be remembered as one of the best guitar players, that doesn't mean it's true. At least I know he's one sloppy talentless player.
Fuck people, I have my own opinion!![/QUOTE]
The last sentence in this quote is the key sentence. OPINION. It's not true that Page is the greatest guitarist - simply because each person will have their own greatest guitarist. Brian May isn't the greatest guitarist in the world. He is the greatest guitarist in my opinion. Vai is a great guitarist in your opinion, but he may bore the crap out of other people. You don't "know" Jimmy Page is sloppy and talentless. It's YOUR OPINION, as you said it yourself. Stop selling your opinion as fact. I know better guitarists and musicians than you (how about jazz musicians who started studying way before you were born and can play better stuff than you?) who listen to Led Zeppelin and actually advise me to learn some of their stuff on the guitar.
[QUOTE][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:
[/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b>- Horsie Clarkson - wrote: [/QUOTENAME]When it's
"too advanced" or "too technical" for you, it means you're a poor moron that
can't understand it. You better stick with Page's stuff and his basic pentatonic
licks, played wrong.[/QUOTE]
You are in the same field as the select classical and jazz snobs who scowl at people who aren't at their level of technical understanding and/or ability, as if that's the most important thing. You will not get anywhere with that attitude, I assure you. Maybe you should join Treasure Moment. Your two completely different breeds of musical arrogance would surely be an interesting combination.
[/QUOTE]
There was a time when things were too technical for me too, then I started to understand what it was all about and I do believe I am able to tell the difference between something perfect and fucking crap. However, that's not the music I really like but having the (seemingly) impossibly amazing and unique ability to understand highly technical music makes me understand it too. I'm used to it so I can see that music as a whole and not just as a "too advanced" thing. [/QUOTE]
You've just confirmed Sir GH's words.
[QUOTE]If you really care about music you
People often choose a solo played wrong like Stairway To Heaven over something amazingly played like Bo Rhap. People know shit about music. [/QUOTE]
- I prefer Bohemian Rhapsody - but it's a matter of personal opinion. I like Stairway to Heaven too, and I think both of them are brilliant.
- "Played wrong", says who? You? Vai? The late Chopin? Elizabeth II? The Pope? It's Jimmy Page's solo, who can say it's wrong other than Page himself...? In the studio you can record a hundred takes if necessary. If he released that take, that means he was happy with that. Just because YOU choose to follow certain standards, it doesn't mean everybody needs to follow the same standards. It's YOUR OPINION that songs must be played with every single note belonging to the same scale on the same key, fitting perfectly in the bar, bla bla bla de bla. It's his guitar, he plays it the way he wants it. It's our money, we buy the albums we want. It's our taste, we'll listen to whatever we enjoy.
How would you judge Japanese music, that follows a scale with more than 50 different notes? Is that wrong, as it's not what people in the XVIII century played in Vienna?
[QUOTE]You study to learn, because you don't know. Most people know shit about music and don't understand anything at all.[/QUOTE]
You study lots, you know lots, but you don't understand it. :)
[QUOTE]Page could have chosen to practice for six hours a day, but he didn't. And the result is obvious. Whether he creates good music or not is not what we're discussing (I do think that his songs are very primitive too, but that's another story). He may be remembered as one of the best guitar players, that doesn't mean it's true. At least I know he's one sloppy talentless player.
Fuck people, I have my own opinion!![/QUOTE]
The last sentence in this quote is the key sentence. OPINION. It's not true that Page is the greatest guitarist - simply because each person will have their own greatest guitarist. Brian May isn't the greatest guitarist in the world. He is the greatest guitarist in my opinion. Vai is a great guitarist in your opinion, but he may bore the crap out of other people. You don't "know" Jimmy Page is sloppy and talentless. It's YOUR OPINION, as you said it yourself. Stop selling your opinion as fact. I know better guitarists and musicians than you (how about jazz musicians who started studying way before you were born and can play better stuff than you?) who listen to Led Zeppelin and actually advise me to learn some of their stuff on the guitar.
[QUOTE][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:
[/QUOTENAME][QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b>- Horsie Clarkson - wrote: [/QUOTENAME]When it's
"too advanced" or "too technical" for you, it means you're a poor moron that
can't understand it. You better stick with Page's stuff and his basic pentatonic
licks, played wrong.[/QUOTE]
You are in the same field as the select classical and jazz snobs who scowl at people who aren't at their level of technical understanding and/or ability, as if that's the most important thing. You will not get anywhere with that attitude, I assure you. Maybe you should join Treasure Moment. Your two completely different breeds of musical arrogance would surely be an interesting combination.
[/QUOTE]
There was a time when things were too technical for me too, then I started to understand what it was all about and I do believe I am able to tell the difference between something perfect and fucking crap. However, that's not the music I really like but having the (seemingly) impossibly amazing and unique ability to understand highly technical music makes me understand it too. I'm used to it so I can see that music as a whole and not just as a "too advanced" thing. [/QUOTE]
You've just confirmed Sir GH's words.
[QUOTE]If you really care about music you
I wanna discuss with someone coherent that actually reads what he's writing, Raf.
"It's your opinion"
No, it's not. It's not my opinion when he goes out of tune, it's not my opinion when he can't keep up with the most basic tempo. He plays like fucking crap and it's not my opinion. I do hear all his mistakes, I suffer them. They are fucking there! It's not me trying to sell my opinion as a fact, it's you that don't know shit and obviously don't realize about it.
Your concepts towards music are the most ignorant thing ever. If it was up to you, there wouldn't be any good players, they'd all suck as they would play like shit (not respecting the most basic "rules").
No offense.
:)
"It's your opinion"
No, it's not. It's not my opinion when he goes out of tune, it's not my opinion when he can't keep up with the most basic tempo. He plays like fucking crap and it's not my opinion. I do hear all his mistakes, I suffer them. They are fucking there! It's not me trying to sell my opinion as a fact, it's you that don't know shit and obviously don't realize about it.
Your concepts towards music are the most ignorant thing ever. If it was up to you, there wouldn't be any good players, they'd all suck as they would play like shit (not respecting the most basic "rules").
No offense.
:)
[QUOTE][QUOTENAME]<b>- Horsie Clarkson - wrote: [/QUOTENAME]
"It's your opinion"
No, it's not. It's not my opinion when he goes out of tune, it's not my opinion when he can't keep up with the most basic tempo. He plays like fucking crap and it's not my opinion. I do hear all his mistakes, I suffer them. They are fucking there! It's not me trying to sell my opinion as a fact, it's you that don't know shit and obviously don't realize about it.[/QUOTE]
It is your opinion that a song is bad simply because it's "out of tempo". It is your opinion that a player needs to only play notes from the scale to sound good. It is your opinion that everybody must stick to the western music rules several centuries after they were made.
"It's your opinion"
No, it's not. It's not my opinion when he goes out of tune, it's not my opinion when he can't keep up with the most basic tempo. He plays like fucking crap and it's not my opinion. I do hear all his mistakes, I suffer them. They are fucking there! It's not me trying to sell my opinion as a fact, it's you that don't know shit and obviously don't realize about it.[/QUOTE]
It is your opinion that a song is bad simply because it's "out of tempo". It is your opinion that a player needs to only play notes from the scale to sound good. It is your opinion that everybody must stick to the western music rules several centuries after they were made.
You don't even know what the western scale is or how it works, just shut up.