[QUOTE]
[b]Guy wrote: [/b]
ThomasQuinn, your idea to send a UN peacekeeping force shows you have no idea how absolutely usesless these forces are. See the role of the peacekeeping force in the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_Genocide]Srebrenica massacre[/url]. Also, many Israelis feel the UN is prejudiced regarding the conflict, so it will never work.[/QUOTE]
The Srebrenica massacre was largely caused by two things: a refusal to lend air support by the American commander, and the sheer cowardice of the Dutch commander (whose loyalties were questionable, considering the fact that he was dubiously friendly with Mladic). The 'Many Israelis' you refer to consider anyone who isn't a die-hard supporter of their cause as being prejudiced against them (not to mention to frequent labeling of anyone who isn't in favor of the colonists as an anti-semite by those same people), much like the fanatics on the other side of the fence will consider anyone who isn't a Jihadist as being prejudiced. That's what a peacekeeping force is for: dealing with militant lunatics of all denominations.
As for the supposed "uselessness" of UN peacekeeping forces: I name UNAVEM II, the peacekeeping mission to Angola 1991-1993 and UNAMSIL, in Sierra Leone from 1999 to 2005, after the civil war there, as just two examples of succesful UN missions.
Thread
Posts in chronological order
[QUOTE][b]Thomas Quinn wrote:[/b]
That's what a peacekeeping force is for: dealing with militant lunatics of all denominations.[/QUOTE]
So you're saying a peacekeeping force should be at your house at all times, then?
That's what a peacekeeping force is for: dealing with militant lunatics of all denominations.[/QUOTE]
So you're saying a peacekeeping force should be at your house at all times, then?
[QUOTE]
[b]Micrówave wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE][b]Thomas Quinn wrote:[/b]
That's what a peacekeeping force is for: dealing with militant lunatics of all denominations.[/QUOTE]
So you're saying a peacekeeping force should be at your house at all times, then?[/QUOTE]
How was that comment useful to the topic?
[b]Micrówave wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE][b]Thomas Quinn wrote:[/b]
That's what a peacekeeping force is for: dealing with militant lunatics of all denominations.[/QUOTE]
So you're saying a peacekeeping force should be at your house at all times, then?[/QUOTE]
How was that comment useful to the topic?
It wasn't, as per usual. When Microwave is annoyed, he starts to post little jokes like these. It's what a certain kind of person does when he can't think of a sensible response. Anyway, back on topic: the fact that Turkey is now being bitterly critical of Israel's actions might provide some positive impetus, being one of Israel's most important allies. I understand European and Arab leaders are currently trying to patch up a cease-fire by which both sides will refrain from violence, thought I doubt that at this time it will have any effect.
[QUOTE]
[b]Raf wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Micrówave wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE][b]Thomas Quinn wrote:[/b]
That's what a peacekeeping force is for: dealing with militant lunatics of all denominations.[/QUOTE]
So you're saying a peacekeeping force should be at your house at all times, then?[/QUOTE]
How was that comment useful to the topic?
[/QUOTE]
About as useful (and one-sided) as post #11 in this thread. I didn't start calling people names. How useful is that to any topic?
[b]Raf wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]Micrówave wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE][b]Thomas Quinn wrote:[/b]
That's what a peacekeeping force is for: dealing with militant lunatics of all denominations.[/QUOTE]
So you're saying a peacekeeping force should be at your house at all times, then?[/QUOTE]
How was that comment useful to the topic?
[/QUOTE]
About as useful (and one-sided) as post #11 in this thread. I didn't start calling people names. How useful is that to any topic?
It wasn't, as per usual. When TQ is convinced he's right, he starts to call people names like this. It's what a certain kind of person does when he can't think of a sensible response.
Israel has attacked UN schools today (2 or 3, depending on what report you take as true), where *civilian* refugees are hiding. If that isn't a war crime...
[QUOTE]
[b]Guy wrote: [/b]
stuff...
[/QUOTE]
Holy crap.. Guy !!!!!! Haven't seen you in years!
Drop me an email... hope you're well.
[b]Guy wrote: [/b]
stuff...
[/QUOTE]
Holy crap.. Guy !!!!!! Haven't seen you in years!
Drop me an email... hope you're well.
Some interesting points have been risen here:
"Jews have been being killed for centuries. When plagues ran through villages in Europe in the Middle Ages, it was the Jews who were accused of "Poisoning the Wells", and were run out of town (at best) and slaughtered (at worst). That was before Hitler and the Holocaust tried to wipe them all out. Out of guilt, Britain and France decide to evict all the Palestinians from their land and give the land to the Jews, to ease their conscious at not letting all of them into their countries during the years of Hitler. As a result of these centuries of attacks on them, the Jews adopt the victimhood mentality. And, for the most part, the outside world lets them get away with it because being anti-Jewish means you are inherently evil because you should feel sorry for them for all they've gone through."
When did Britain and France evict all the Palestines from their land ... to ease their concious? I learned in school that Israel was founded by UN vote on the UN division plan in 1947. Until then Palestine was under British mandate. France could not really give asylum to Jews because the country was occupied by Germany. However, the Vichy regime collaborated with the Nazis and sent almost all French Jews to the Nazi death camps. This happened in other countries like Italy, Austria, Poland - only Denmark protected their Jews. There was no need for Jews to "adopt" a victim mentality, they WERE victims who had nowhere to go. Nobody can say that the Jews should not be traumatized by what happened to them in Europe. It was the worst genocide ever committed in mankind in the most possible cruel way.
When Israel was founded by UN vote, the Arab nations attacked the new state in the first night of its existence. 2 other big wars followed - the 6 day war and the Jom Kippur war plus many other smaller wars in which Israel fought for the sheer right to not be extinguished. Israel made peace for land (for example the Sinai peninsula,) and peace for being recognized by their Arab neighbours.
The Hamas and the Hizbollah do not recognize the right for Israelis to live in their country. We can wonder if the UN division plan was a good idea but it was 60 years ago and Israel has been recognized by most countries in the world. Hamas and Hizbollah are no states, they are terror organisations. They hold their own people hostage in their ongoing hate campaigns, they do not mind shooting rockets from crowded cities like Gazah city.
I cannot believe the suffering of the Palestine population in Gazah but I would like to hear a plan how Israel can defend their right to live in peace in their country without fighting back against the never stopping attacks by fundamentalists like Hamas and Hizbollah. All Israeli men and women have to serve 3 years in the army and they are reservists all their lives to be able to defend the country against the never stopping attacks. There have been countless meetings, peace plans, cease fires but the violence never stops. Israel stopped the settlings in Gaza strip and West Jordan, Egypt recognized Israel as did Jordan. Most Arab countries do not support the Hamas at all, they do not want the fundamentalists in their own countries, either. Most Israeli people want peace more than anything and do not condone the settlers or hostile measures like building the wall around Gazah strip. I really would like to know how the majority of all the people in the Middle East can obtain the peace they need so badly and make the killing stop. The whole situation is so hopeless.
"Jews have been being killed for centuries. When plagues ran through villages in Europe in the Middle Ages, it was the Jews who were accused of "Poisoning the Wells", and were run out of town (at best) and slaughtered (at worst). That was before Hitler and the Holocaust tried to wipe them all out. Out of guilt, Britain and France decide to evict all the Palestinians from their land and give the land to the Jews, to ease their conscious at not letting all of them into their countries during the years of Hitler. As a result of these centuries of attacks on them, the Jews adopt the victimhood mentality. And, for the most part, the outside world lets them get away with it because being anti-Jewish means you are inherently evil because you should feel sorry for them for all they've gone through."
When did Britain and France evict all the Palestines from their land ... to ease their concious? I learned in school that Israel was founded by UN vote on the UN division plan in 1947. Until then Palestine was under British mandate. France could not really give asylum to Jews because the country was occupied by Germany. However, the Vichy regime collaborated with the Nazis and sent almost all French Jews to the Nazi death camps. This happened in other countries like Italy, Austria, Poland - only Denmark protected their Jews. There was no need for Jews to "adopt" a victim mentality, they WERE victims who had nowhere to go. Nobody can say that the Jews should not be traumatized by what happened to them in Europe. It was the worst genocide ever committed in mankind in the most possible cruel way.
When Israel was founded by UN vote, the Arab nations attacked the new state in the first night of its existence. 2 other big wars followed - the 6 day war and the Jom Kippur war plus many other smaller wars in which Israel fought for the sheer right to not be extinguished. Israel made peace for land (for example the Sinai peninsula,) and peace for being recognized by their Arab neighbours.
The Hamas and the Hizbollah do not recognize the right for Israelis to live in their country. We can wonder if the UN division plan was a good idea but it was 60 years ago and Israel has been recognized by most countries in the world. Hamas and Hizbollah are no states, they are terror organisations. They hold their own people hostage in their ongoing hate campaigns, they do not mind shooting rockets from crowded cities like Gazah city.
I cannot believe the suffering of the Palestine population in Gazah but I would like to hear a plan how Israel can defend their right to live in peace in their country without fighting back against the never stopping attacks by fundamentalists like Hamas and Hizbollah. All Israeli men and women have to serve 3 years in the army and they are reservists all their lives to be able to defend the country against the never stopping attacks. There have been countless meetings, peace plans, cease fires but the violence never stops. Israel stopped the settlings in Gaza strip and West Jordan, Egypt recognized Israel as did Jordan. Most Arab countries do not support the Hamas at all, they do not want the fundamentalists in their own countries, either. Most Israeli people want peace more than anything and do not condone the settlers or hostile measures like building the wall around Gazah strip. I really would like to know how the majority of all the people in the Middle East can obtain the peace they need so badly and make the killing stop. The whole situation is so hopeless.
[QUOTE]
[b]YourValentine wrote: [/b]
Some interesting points have been risen here:
"Jews have been being killed for centuries. When plagues ran through villages in Europe in the Middle Ages, it was the Jews who were accused of "Poisoning the Wells", and were run out of town (at best) and slaughtered (at worst). That was before Hitler and the Holocaust tried to wipe them all out. Out of guilt, Britain and France decide to evict all the Palestinians from their land and give the land to the Jews, to ease their conscious at not letting all of them into their countries during the years of Hitler. As a result of these centuries of attacks on them, the Jews adopt the victimhood mentality. And, for the most part, the outside world lets them get away with it because being anti-Jewish means you are inherently evil because you should feel sorry for them for all they've gone through."
When did Britain and France evict all the Palestines from their land ... to ease their concious? I learned in school that Israel was founded by UN vote on the UN division plan in 1947. Until then Palestine was under British mandate. France could not really give asylum to Jews because the country was occupied by Germany. However, the Vichy regime collaborated with the Nazis and sent almost all French Jews to the Nazi death camps. This happened in other countries like Italy, Austria, Poland - only Denmark protected their Jews. There was no need for Jews to "adopt" a victim mentality, they WERE victims who had nowhere to go. Nobody can say that the Jews should not be traumatized by what happened to them in Europe. It was the worst genocide ever committed in mankind in the most possible cruel way.
When Israel was founded by UN vote, the Arab nations attacked the new state in the first night of its existence. 2 other big wars followed - the 6 day war and the Jom Kippur war plus many other smaller wars in which Israel fought for the sheer right to not be extinguished. Israel made peace for land (for example the Sinai peninsula,) and peace for being recognized by their Arab neighbours.
The Hamas and the Hizbollah do not recognize the right for Israelis to live in their country. We can wonder if the UN division plan was a good idea but it was 60 years ago and Israel has been recognized by most countries in the world. Hamas and Hizbollah are no states, they are terror organisations. They hold their own people hostage in their ongoing hate campaigns, they do not mind shooting rockets from crowded cities like Gazah city.
I cannot believe the suffering of the Palestine population in Gazah but I would like to hear a plan how Israel can defend their right to live in peace in their country without fighting back against the never stopping attacks by fundamentalists like Hamas and Hizbollah. All Israeli men and women have to serve 3 years in the army and they are reservists all their lives to be able to defend the country against the never stopping attacks. There have been countless meetings, peace plans, cease fires but the violence never stops. Israel stopped the settlings in Gaza strip and West Jordan, Egypt recognized Israel as did Jordan. Most Arab countries do not support the Hamas at all, they do not want the fundamentalists in their own countries, either. Most Israeli people want peace more than anything and do not condone the settlers or hostile measures like building the wall around Gazah strip. I really would like to know how the majority of all the people in the Middle East can obtain the peace they need so badly and make the killing stop. The whole situation is so hopeless.[/QUOTE]
The big picture you paint is correct. However, a few necessary details are still lacking:
- The state of Israel was officially sanctioned by the UN in 1947. Before that date, however, several Jewish-Zionist organizations (organizations which wanted to set up a Jewish Homeland) had been buying land in what is now Israel for settlement since before WWII. They bought this land from Arab absentee landlords, who already had tenants on this land (the Palestinians), but didn't give a shit, because there was profit to be made. When the Jewish settlers found these Palestinians on what was now their land, two different courses of action were undertaken. One group found ways to coexist peacefully with the Palestinians on their land, another group decided, using the argument that they had legally bought the land, to violently evict the Palestinians who were living on it.
- The latter group of Israeli settlers, the ones who didn't want to live peacefully with the Palestinians, was and has always remained a minority group. They were the ones who committed the terrorist acts against the British during their mandate, and the Colonists, the groups of Israelis who illegally occupy Palestinian territories, come from that group. Sadly, they are backed by the military establishment (and thus most right-winged parties in Israel) for a number of reasons: they are part of the cause of all the violence that justifies the enormous size of the Israeli army (and thus the Israeli army's budget) relative to the population, they enlarge the territory of the state of Israel by means of annexation, and they usually support conservative policy.
- From day one onwards, elements in the Arab world (both Palestinians and others) have felt threatened by Israel, and have decided, foolishly and criminally, to deal with that violently. So, Israeli and Palestinian/Arab violence perpetuate each other.
- One pivotal point: Hamas' strength is solely to be blamed on the current Israeli government and the Sharon-government before it, which funded Hamas in an attempt to destabilize the Fatah regime, which was seen as more of a threat at the time. The result was similar to the US funding of the Taliban.
[b]YourValentine wrote: [/b]
Some interesting points have been risen here:
"Jews have been being killed for centuries. When plagues ran through villages in Europe in the Middle Ages, it was the Jews who were accused of "Poisoning the Wells", and were run out of town (at best) and slaughtered (at worst). That was before Hitler and the Holocaust tried to wipe them all out. Out of guilt, Britain and France decide to evict all the Palestinians from their land and give the land to the Jews, to ease their conscious at not letting all of them into their countries during the years of Hitler. As a result of these centuries of attacks on them, the Jews adopt the victimhood mentality. And, for the most part, the outside world lets them get away with it because being anti-Jewish means you are inherently evil because you should feel sorry for them for all they've gone through."
When did Britain and France evict all the Palestines from their land ... to ease their concious? I learned in school that Israel was founded by UN vote on the UN division plan in 1947. Until then Palestine was under British mandate. France could not really give asylum to Jews because the country was occupied by Germany. However, the Vichy regime collaborated with the Nazis and sent almost all French Jews to the Nazi death camps. This happened in other countries like Italy, Austria, Poland - only Denmark protected their Jews. There was no need for Jews to "adopt" a victim mentality, they WERE victims who had nowhere to go. Nobody can say that the Jews should not be traumatized by what happened to them in Europe. It was the worst genocide ever committed in mankind in the most possible cruel way.
When Israel was founded by UN vote, the Arab nations attacked the new state in the first night of its existence. 2 other big wars followed - the 6 day war and the Jom Kippur war plus many other smaller wars in which Israel fought for the sheer right to not be extinguished. Israel made peace for land (for example the Sinai peninsula,) and peace for being recognized by their Arab neighbours.
The Hamas and the Hizbollah do not recognize the right for Israelis to live in their country. We can wonder if the UN division plan was a good idea but it was 60 years ago and Israel has been recognized by most countries in the world. Hamas and Hizbollah are no states, they are terror organisations. They hold their own people hostage in their ongoing hate campaigns, they do not mind shooting rockets from crowded cities like Gazah city.
I cannot believe the suffering of the Palestine population in Gazah but I would like to hear a plan how Israel can defend their right to live in peace in their country without fighting back against the never stopping attacks by fundamentalists like Hamas and Hizbollah. All Israeli men and women have to serve 3 years in the army and they are reservists all their lives to be able to defend the country against the never stopping attacks. There have been countless meetings, peace plans, cease fires but the violence never stops. Israel stopped the settlings in Gaza strip and West Jordan, Egypt recognized Israel as did Jordan. Most Arab countries do not support the Hamas at all, they do not want the fundamentalists in their own countries, either. Most Israeli people want peace more than anything and do not condone the settlers or hostile measures like building the wall around Gazah strip. I really would like to know how the majority of all the people in the Middle East can obtain the peace they need so badly and make the killing stop. The whole situation is so hopeless.[/QUOTE]
The big picture you paint is correct. However, a few necessary details are still lacking:
- The state of Israel was officially sanctioned by the UN in 1947. Before that date, however, several Jewish-Zionist organizations (organizations which wanted to set up a Jewish Homeland) had been buying land in what is now Israel for settlement since before WWII. They bought this land from Arab absentee landlords, who already had tenants on this land (the Palestinians), but didn't give a shit, because there was profit to be made. When the Jewish settlers found these Palestinians on what was now their land, two different courses of action were undertaken. One group found ways to coexist peacefully with the Palestinians on their land, another group decided, using the argument that they had legally bought the land, to violently evict the Palestinians who were living on it.
- The latter group of Israeli settlers, the ones who didn't want to live peacefully with the Palestinians, was and has always remained a minority group. They were the ones who committed the terrorist acts against the British during their mandate, and the Colonists, the groups of Israelis who illegally occupy Palestinian territories, come from that group. Sadly, they are backed by the military establishment (and thus most right-winged parties in Israel) for a number of reasons: they are part of the cause of all the violence that justifies the enormous size of the Israeli army (and thus the Israeli army's budget) relative to the population, they enlarge the territory of the state of Israel by means of annexation, and they usually support conservative policy.
- From day one onwards, elements in the Arab world (both Palestinians and others) have felt threatened by Israel, and have decided, foolishly and criminally, to deal with that violently. So, Israeli and Palestinian/Arab violence perpetuate each other.
- One pivotal point: Hamas' strength is solely to be blamed on the current Israeli government and the Sharon-government before it, which funded Hamas in an attempt to destabilize the Fatah regime, which was seen as more of a threat at the time. The result was similar to the US funding of the Taliban.
[url=http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/07/gaza.red.cross/index.html]Red Cross Discovers Atrocities.[/url]
[url=http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/01/08/hamas.boy/index.html]The Grim Truth: The Result Of Mass Attacks[/url]
[url=http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/01/08/hamas.boy/index.html]The Grim Truth: The Result Of Mass Attacks[/url]
Yes, it's heart breaking. War is never a solution. I wish someone knew the way to solve this peacefully and put an end to the decades of hatred and bloodshed.
This is terrible, but not so one-sided. The casualty count is. Unfortunately, Hamas has been launching these rockets even after the supposed cease-fire was in place. And they're launching them from an extremely populated area.
Daily life for an Israeli living there are the sounds of air-raid sirens, giving a few minutes warning until the missle strikes it's random target.
But it is also clear that NO ONE has an exit plan here and many civilians will lose their lives for it.
Daily life for an Israeli living there are the sounds of air-raid sirens, giving a few minutes warning until the missle strikes it's random target.
But it is also clear that NO ONE has an exit plan here and many civilians will lose their lives for it.
A) Both Hamas and Israel observed the official cease-fire
B) Nearly all rockets are intercepted by Israel's excellent air defence system. Compare casualties per 1000 of the population, and see how much worse of Palestinian citizens are.
C) Israel has attacked a UN convoy today. [url=http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/08/israel.gaza/index.html]Here's the article[/url]. Or is that also propaganda? Or perhaps you deem this acceptable, considering the huge threat to the security of Israeli citizens posed by UN humanitarian aid...
B) Nearly all rockets are intercepted by Israel's excellent air defence system. Compare casualties per 1000 of the population, and see how much worse of Palestinian citizens are.
C) Israel has attacked a UN convoy today. [url=http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/08/israel.gaza/index.html]Here's the article[/url]. Or is that also propaganda? Or perhaps you deem this acceptable, considering the huge threat to the security of Israeli citizens posed by UN humanitarian aid...
A) You shouldn't talk to nazis
B) Both HAMAS and ISRAEL did NOT observe the cease fire. But then, Time Magazine is probably run by nazis as well.
C) I'm wearing my KILL 'EM ALL IN GAZA T-shirt today... just for you.
Get your facts straight. (see item B) Then, maybe you can A-B-C things better.
And what does "see how much worse of Palestinian citizens are" mean?
B) Both HAMAS and ISRAEL did NOT observe the cease fire. But then, Time Magazine is probably run by nazis as well.
C) I'm wearing my KILL 'EM ALL IN GAZA T-shirt today... just for you.
Get your facts straight. (see item B) Then, maybe you can A-B-C things better.
And what does "see how much worse of Palestinian citizens are" mean?