the declaration of independence of Israel back in 1948 was a mistake...
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[QUOTE]
[b]ThomasQuinn wrote: [/b]
B) Nearly all rockets are intercepted by Israel's excellent air defence system.
[/QUOTE]
Care to provide some kind of proof? Or is this just another one of your implausible claims, that you so conveniently choose to present as well-established facts?
[b]ThomasQuinn wrote: [/b]
B) Nearly all rockets are intercepted by Israel's excellent air defence system.
[/QUOTE]
Care to provide some kind of proof? Or is this just another one of your implausible claims, that you so conveniently choose to present as well-established facts?
The only real difference between TQ and TM is that Caspar has decent taste in music and he doesn't capitalize his outrageous FACTS.
Even if the Israeli air defense were able to destroy a high percentage of the incoming rockets it would not make it more right to fire them. No country in the world would allow a neighbour to fire random rockets on their territory. You can argue about the response and the many civilian casualties which is really hard to bear but you have to keep in mind the unique situation of Israel:
No other country has been permanently fighting for its sheer existence like Israel and the Jewish holocaust trauma should not be belittled. Just remember for a moment what happened in the second gulf war (1991): although Israel was not involved in the war AT ALL the Iraq fired SCUD rockets into the cities and there was a huge fear that they carried chemical weapons. Just imagine you sit in your house with gas masks for man, woman and child and someone you never had a problem with fires rockets at your home for pure hatred. The USA demanded that Israel did not fight back in order to avoid problems with their Arab allies and Israel obliged in order to not annoy their most powerful friend. You can say this has nothing to do with the Gaza strip situation today but it has. It's very hard for any Israeli government to tell the people they have to take yet another attack for the sake of peace and humanity. I am sure that the Palestines have to tell many stories of injustice and cruelty themselves but as long as they vote for a terror organisation as a government they won't get anything but lip service from the international community. Even the conservative Arab nations do not want to support the Hamas for fear that the terror will spread to their own countries. However, I think there must be a way to stop the incredible suffering in Gaza. It's hard to see how the world watches and nobody has a plan how to stop this killing.
No other country has been permanently fighting for its sheer existence like Israel and the Jewish holocaust trauma should not be belittled. Just remember for a moment what happened in the second gulf war (1991): although Israel was not involved in the war AT ALL the Iraq fired SCUD rockets into the cities and there was a huge fear that they carried chemical weapons. Just imagine you sit in your house with gas masks for man, woman and child and someone you never had a problem with fires rockets at your home for pure hatred. The USA demanded that Israel did not fight back in order to avoid problems with their Arab allies and Israel obliged in order to not annoy their most powerful friend. You can say this has nothing to do with the Gaza strip situation today but it has. It's very hard for any Israeli government to tell the people they have to take yet another attack for the sake of peace and humanity. I am sure that the Palestines have to tell many stories of injustice and cruelty themselves but as long as they vote for a terror organisation as a government they won't get anything but lip service from the international community. Even the conservative Arab nations do not want to support the Hamas for fear that the terror will spread to their own countries. However, I think there must be a way to stop the incredible suffering in Gaza. It's hard to see how the world watches and nobody has a plan how to stop this killing.
[QUOTE]
[b]YourValentine wrote: [/b]
Even if the Israeli air defense were able to destroy a high percentage of the incoming rockets it would not make it more right to fire them. No country in the world would allow a neighbour to fire random rockets on their territory. You can argue about the response and the many civilian casualties which is really hard to bear but you have to keep in mind the unique situation of Israel:
[/QUOTE]
I was responding to the supposed casualty count inflicted, not the act of violence itself. What I was pointing out was that the response is disproportional to the original act; not only does this destroy numerous lives of innocent civilians, it also plays straight into the hand of extremists, who now have more arguments to demonstrate to Palestinian youths that Israel is out to destroy them. That is not true (at least, I hope it's still as untrue as it was a few years ago; I'm not so sure with Olmert, who is a fanatic himself), but I can certainly imagine that many Palestinians would believe it. In fact, in the Dutch newspapers today (I read it in the PZC, but I understand it's featured in other papers as well) a Major-General of the Dutch armed forces argued that very same thing.
"No other country has been permanently fighting for its sheer
existence like Israel and the Jewish holocaust trauma should not be
belittled. Just remember for a moment what happened in the second gulf
war (1991): although Israel was not involved in the war AT ALL the
Iraq fired SCUD rockets into the cities and there was a huge fear that
they carried chemical weapons. Just imagine you sit in your house with
gas masks for man, woman and child and someone you never had a problem
with fires rockets at your home for pure hatred. The USA demanded that
Israel did not fight back in order to avoid problems with their Arab
allies and Israel obliged in order to not annoy their most
powerful friend. You can say this has nothing to do with the Gaza strip
situation today but it has. It's very hard for any Israeli government
to tell the people they have to take yet another attack for the sake of
peace and humanity. I am sure that the Palestines have to tell many
stories of injustice and cruelty themselves but as long as they vote
for a terror organisation as a government they won't get anything but
lip service from the international community. Even the conservative
Arab nations do not want to support the Hamas for fear that the terror
will spread to their own countries. However, I think there must be a
way to stop the incredible suffering in Gaza. It's hard to see how the
world watches and nobody has a plan how to stop this killing."
Iraq was totally unjustified in that entire war, not just the attack on Israel (don't forget the Kuweit affair and the murder of Kurds, which was even more horrific). The Holocaust was perhaps the biggest crime in the history of mankind (though, as an historian, I think the 30 Years War (1618-1648) was even worse, as it killed between 30 and 70% of the population of the present day south of Germany, ranging from region to region). However, over sixty years after this happened, it can no longer be an argument in the acts of the Israeli government. The fact remains that Israel has instituted a regime of apartheid; incidents of Israeli soldiers and colonists abusing Palestinians are so numerous that they can hardly be called 'incidents' (want proof? There are literally hundreds of videorecordings of these acts made by Palestinians who received camcorders from an *Israeli* humanitarian organization. Yes, people, many ISRAELIS also feel that their government is mistreating Palestinians). This sort of behaviour reminds me of the way the nazis acted towards the Jews in the early phase of the nazi regime (1933-1939).
The whole point is that a spiral of violence has been created by both sides; Hamas is at least in part the fault of this very Israeli government that is now fighting them. They funded them, like the US funded the Taliban and the Contras in Niceragua, in the hopes of destabilizing Fatah, which is thoroughly corrupt. A clear case of divide-and-conquer policy gone wrong. What is needed now is a moderate regime on both sides of the fence (Fatah seems to be the lesser evil, and there are a number of moderate parties in Israel), and international peacekeepers to deal with radicals of both sides trying to subvert the peace process. Hopefully, a more sensible foreign policy will arise under Obama, that will not blindly follow one side in a conflict, as the Neo-Cons did these last 8 years, but make demands on both sides, and give to both sides.
[b]YourValentine wrote: [/b]
Even if the Israeli air defense were able to destroy a high percentage of the incoming rockets it would not make it more right to fire them. No country in the world would allow a neighbour to fire random rockets on their territory. You can argue about the response and the many civilian casualties which is really hard to bear but you have to keep in mind the unique situation of Israel:
[/QUOTE]
I was responding to the supposed casualty count inflicted, not the act of violence itself. What I was pointing out was that the response is disproportional to the original act; not only does this destroy numerous lives of innocent civilians, it also plays straight into the hand of extremists, who now have more arguments to demonstrate to Palestinian youths that Israel is out to destroy them. That is not true (at least, I hope it's still as untrue as it was a few years ago; I'm not so sure with Olmert, who is a fanatic himself), but I can certainly imagine that many Palestinians would believe it. In fact, in the Dutch newspapers today (I read it in the PZC, but I understand it's featured in other papers as well) a Major-General of the Dutch armed forces argued that very same thing.
"No other country has been permanently fighting for its sheer
existence like Israel and the Jewish holocaust trauma should not be
belittled. Just remember for a moment what happened in the second gulf
war (1991): although Israel was not involved in the war AT ALL the
Iraq fired SCUD rockets into the cities and there was a huge fear that
they carried chemical weapons. Just imagine you sit in your house with
gas masks for man, woman and child and someone you never had a problem
with fires rockets at your home for pure hatred. The USA demanded that
Israel did not fight back in order to avoid problems with their Arab
allies and Israel obliged in order to not annoy their most
powerful friend. You can say this has nothing to do with the Gaza strip
situation today but it has. It's very hard for any Israeli government
to tell the people they have to take yet another attack for the sake of
peace and humanity. I am sure that the Palestines have to tell many
stories of injustice and cruelty themselves but as long as they vote
for a terror organisation as a government they won't get anything but
lip service from the international community. Even the conservative
Arab nations do not want to support the Hamas for fear that the terror
will spread to their own countries. However, I think there must be a
way to stop the incredible suffering in Gaza. It's hard to see how the
world watches and nobody has a plan how to stop this killing."
Iraq was totally unjustified in that entire war, not just the attack on Israel (don't forget the Kuweit affair and the murder of Kurds, which was even more horrific). The Holocaust was perhaps the biggest crime in the history of mankind (though, as an historian, I think the 30 Years War (1618-1648) was even worse, as it killed between 30 and 70% of the population of the present day south of Germany, ranging from region to region). However, over sixty years after this happened, it can no longer be an argument in the acts of the Israeli government. The fact remains that Israel has instituted a regime of apartheid; incidents of Israeli soldiers and colonists abusing Palestinians are so numerous that they can hardly be called 'incidents' (want proof? There are literally hundreds of videorecordings of these acts made by Palestinians who received camcorders from an *Israeli* humanitarian organization. Yes, people, many ISRAELIS also feel that their government is mistreating Palestinians). This sort of behaviour reminds me of the way the nazis acted towards the Jews in the early phase of the nazi regime (1933-1939).
The whole point is that a spiral of violence has been created by both sides; Hamas is at least in part the fault of this very Israeli government that is now fighting them. They funded them, like the US funded the Taliban and the Contras in Niceragua, in the hopes of destabilizing Fatah, which is thoroughly corrupt. A clear case of divide-and-conquer policy gone wrong. What is needed now is a moderate regime on both sides of the fence (Fatah seems to be the lesser evil, and there are a number of moderate parties in Israel), and international peacekeepers to deal with radicals of both sides trying to subvert the peace process. Hopefully, a more sensible foreign policy will arise under Obama, that will not blindly follow one side in a conflict, as the Neo-Cons did these last 8 years, but make demands on both sides, and give to both sides.
Incidentally, would it be possible to fix the quote function? The tag-based version worked a hell of a lot better.
[QUOTE]
[b]ThomasQuinn wrote: [/b]
This sort of behaviour reminds me of the way the nazis acted towards the Jews in the early phase of the nazi regime (1933-1939).
[/QUOTE]
You know, TQ, it's amazing how [url=http://queenzone.com/queenzone/forumnew/forum_topic_view.aspx?Q=590653&page=3]you haven't changed a bit[/url]! (search that page for "Maybe you think")
[b]ThomasQuinn wrote: [/b]
This sort of behaviour reminds me of the way the nazis acted towards the Jews in the early phase of the nazi regime (1933-1939).
[/QUOTE]
You know, TQ, it's amazing how [url=http://queenzone.com/queenzone/forumnew/forum_topic_view.aspx?Q=590653&page=3]you haven't changed a bit[/url]! (search that page for "Maybe you think")
[QUOTE]
[b]YourValentine wrote: [/b]
Yes, it's heart breaking. War is never a solution. I wish someone knew the way to solve this peacefully and put an end to the decades of hatred and bloodshed.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree with you. :(
[b]YourValentine wrote: [/b]
Yes, it's heart breaking. War is never a solution. I wish someone knew the way to solve this peacefully and put an end to the decades of hatred and bloodshed.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree with you. :(
@ Guy
Glad to see I'm not the only "nazi" here in Casparland. I guess we all are nazis. Although, I've never seen you guys at the meetings. It's a much healthier discussion if we simply ignore Caspar Hitler's posts. I don't believe he really is Jewish, if he possesses that much hate and likes to use "nazi" as a common insult.
Glad to see I'm not the only "nazi" here in Casparland. I guess we all are nazis. Although, I've never seen you guys at the meetings. It's a much healthier discussion if we simply ignore Caspar Hitler's posts. I don't believe he really is Jewish, if he possesses that much hate and likes to use "nazi" as a common insult.
[QUOTE] [b]Caspar Hitler wrote:[/b]
I was responding to the supposed casualty count inflicted, not the act of violence itself. [/QUOTE]
Bullshit... you little wanker. You flip-flop more than George Bush. Junior and Senior.
I was responding to the supposed casualty count inflicted, not the act of violence itself. [/QUOTE]
Bullshit... you little wanker. You flip-flop more than George Bush. Junior and Senior.
Ah, yeah; Israel did not [url=http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/2009181119551714.html]attack a UN convoy[/url]. Nor did it [url=http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/07/africa/07mideast.php]attack a UN school[/url], claiming it was being used as a base by terrorists, despite *all* UN sources saying otherwise. Yeah, they're just behaving fine and dandy, sooooo much better than those Palestinians, who are the only ones who ever do anything wrong in the middle east.
So, you're sticking with your one sided stance on this.
Which is probably exactly what the people of both countries have been doing for years and why this war goes on and on and on.
Good thinking, Man-of-steel.
Perhaps you should quit now, that glowing green rock is getting bigger and bigger.
Which is probably exactly what the people of both countries have been doing for years and why this war goes on and on and on.
Good thinking, Man-of-steel.
Perhaps you should quit now, that glowing green rock is getting bigger and bigger.
I'll have to side with Microwave and Guy this time, TQ's views are rather extremist, and while I applaud him for using links to news articles and such to try and back up his views (unlike so many other people here), his views indeed are very one-sided and borderline controversial.
If I recall, it was his inappropriate behaviour like this that actually got him banned and removed here once some years ago.
No offense to you Thomas, but you need to start waking up to people's views other than your own (in order to see in AND outside the box, so to speak). I had to learn that the hard way.
If I recall, it was his inappropriate behaviour like this that actually got him banned and removed here once some years ago.
No offense to you Thomas, but you need to start waking up to people's views other than your own (in order to see in AND outside the box, so to speak). I had to learn that the hard way.
I have already condemned Hamas, both in this topic and out of it. What
do you want me to do, go over there and shoot some of them?
The whole point is that the entire world is already aware of Hamas'
inherent evil. There is absolutely no need to point it out any more, as
it wouldn't be news to anyone. However, Israel is just as bad, and it
is general policy to ignore that (and has been for decades). THAT is
the one-sidedness of this conflict, and that is the prime cause for the
failure of the peace proces: the Arab nations and the Palestinians do
not have faith in the West, because we allow Israel to get away with
anything, while we do condemn the Palestininans whenever they cross the
line. Unless we start treating both sides the same, peace cannot and
will not be attained.
do you want me to do, go over there and shoot some of them?
The whole point is that the entire world is already aware of Hamas'
inherent evil. There is absolutely no need to point it out any more, as
it wouldn't be news to anyone. However, Israel is just as bad, and it
is general policy to ignore that (and has been for decades). THAT is
the one-sidedness of this conflict, and that is the prime cause for the
failure of the peace proces: the Arab nations and the Palestinians do
not have faith in the West, because we allow Israel to get away with
anything, while we do condemn the Palestininans whenever they cross the
line. Unless we start treating both sides the same, peace cannot and
will not be attained.
No really, fuck Israel. I feel sorry for those one or two awesome people that I've met who have come from there. They deserve to have a homeland that they can be proud of.
As for Hamas, nothing but a bunch of rocket flinging monkeys. They won't be happy until they take the rest of the region with them. If there were a way to wipe them off the map, I'd be all for it, but there isn't. You'll just see more US-style misfires and collateral damage on the part of Israel.
The only reason I lean slightly towards saying 'fuck Israel' before saying 'fuck Hamas' is that Israel is the bigger one, and you can't say shit against them without hearing some maggot cry 'anti-Semitism'.
As for Hamas, nothing but a bunch of rocket flinging monkeys. They won't be happy until they take the rest of the region with them. If there were a way to wipe them off the map, I'd be all for it, but there isn't. You'll just see more US-style misfires and collateral damage on the part of Israel.
The only reason I lean slightly towards saying 'fuck Israel' before saying 'fuck Hamas' is that Israel is the bigger one, and you can't say shit against them without hearing some maggot cry 'anti-Semitism'.