hotspace vs thriller

I think 'our timing was off' is a better excuse than 'our record was shite' when it comes to explaining why it wasn't very successful.

As for the quote, I'd usually take Bob's word for it, but not in this case: if it were real, it'd have probably surfaced a long time ago (as it happened with Roger Waters' one about songwriters), plus I suppose there'd be something about it on 'Moonwalk', and there isn't.

[i]Michael Jackson himself once said there would have been no Dangerous without The Cosmos Rock.[/i]

Hi, folks.

How are you?

Well...I in fact agree with all of you in many aspects but I make a different sense out of much what you all guys correctly remarked . Back in 1983, during an interview with Lisa, I guess it's available on youtube, Freddie talked about his collaboration with Michael Jackson and said that Michael Jackson actually wanted to cast him in [i]Thriller's [/i]video - Freddie said that, due to conflicting schedules, he wasn't able to do it - I guess it's fair to say that Michael Jackson would only bestow this honor upon someone who had really influenced him. And there are signs of it indeed: as on my way up pointed out above, Michael Jackson had been listening to Queen back in 1979/1980 and was friends with Freddie and the band, to the point of suggesting Another One Bites The Dust as a single: all this info come from interviews given by the guys at the time "The Game" and "Hot Space" were done.

In terms of sound, well, I like both the Game and Hot Space better than Michael's albums - it's one of those interesting moments in history which showcase that musicianship alone doesn't make a genius sometimes. Hot Space is much more interesting musically and way more daring in terms of crossing different kinds of music - more: it was Queen, back then, who translated that sound to the stage: Freddie had the power in his voice to make it happen live and to really sound as a soul/R&B singer. Brian May had the talent to play the guitar on stage over funk or beat textures and give the songs the right dancing groove.  Freddie's performances of Action This Day or Staying Power at MK have him singing different genres squarely in a single song - by the time he's singing "give it to me, give it to me right now, give it to me...action, action...", during Action this Day, actually improvising at ease just like many great soul singers, one feels like listening to the male version of Aretha Franklin backed up by a rock band playing along some funky beats.  

What really set Michael apart was not the sound - it was the visual. And that's where Queen was failing miserably back then next to Michael Jackson. Michael's videos are unforgettable; he elevated dancing to a state of art and all this helped boost the songs and give them the power they have up until today: his sheer creativity for dance moves and his gorgeous ideas for videos were quite unique. People were eager back then for the all-encompassing experience which Michael was able to provide - putting amazing videos, distinctive new and absolutely appealling coreographies and dances and, yes, good original songs together in a way it had NEVER been done before.  He was a genius in managing to deal with all those elements and putting it all together and [b]redefining[/b] pop-music.    

Even so, I pick Action This Day or Staying Power or Dragon Attack over Beat It any time - even Fun It, which is a song I simply adore and is very well thought out. "Fun It" has a very interesting arrangement which wasn't that obvious back in 1978 as far as mainstream, top-selling artists were concerned.  

It's the "poor Neil Young thing". lol [b]Dylan's[/b] [i]Knocking on Heaven's door [/i]is a straight copy from [b]Neil Young's[/b] [i]Helpless[/i] - by "copy" I mean: it's really the same song, whether by coincidence or not (I think it is by coincidence). Though something set Dylan apart: the lyrics and its clever universal appeal which made it suitable both for the soundtrack [i]of Pat G. and Billy the Kid[/i] and for the times - willingly or not, Dylan hit a political nerve with the song as Nixon was bombing Camdodia. 

Neil Young's musicianship wasn't enough to make his song a legend; it took the genius of someone like Dylan, who was able to give basically the same song a different spin and great lyrics suitable for both a movie and a more general audience. He pulled all this elements together and composed the song which became a legend.
 
That's my take on this subject. :-)) 

Take care you all!  [i]   
[/i]Have a great SUNDAY!!!YEAHHHH!
Yara.

Yara: it is true that:

- MJ liked Queen, watched their shows, and his favourite song by the band (before 'The Game' at least) was [i]Champions[/i].
- MJ suggested [i]AOBtD[/i] as a single (he wasn't the first one, though).
- MJ worked with FM in some tracks.
- FM lost his chance to be in [i]Thriller[/i].
- MJ indeed was one of Freddie's top favourite singers (unlike Paul Rodgers).

But, from the points above to 'without "Hot Space" there would be no "Thriller"' there are light years...

I too find the connection plausible, but tenuous.  Emboldened by the crossover success of AOBTD, Hot Space became a "dancier" type of record, and it destroyed Queen's US fan base.  Queen were a hard rock band whose greatest songs all fell into the realm of what was called Album Oriented Rock (AOR) at the time.  Hot Space for the most part was not AOR music, and with the exception of Dancer and Back Chat, not really at all like Thriller. Staying Power, poor instrumentation aside, would certainly be a Jackson 5 influenced song, pulsing bass drum a la ABC, r' n' b horns, truly "black" music.  Dancer was plodding at best, Back Chat was a weak funk song.  Body language was more Euro-disco than American funk or dance, and Action This Day was more new wavish than black dance or funk.  Put out the Fire was classic Queen sounding, Life is Real was a sparse ballad, Calling All Girls sparse and modern but not black dance or funk, Las Palabras was a Queen ballad with synth ornamentation, Cool Cat was black dance or funk, but arguably terrible, and Under Pressure was another modern for the times rock song.  If Brian is referring to Michael Jackson attempting to cross over to a white audience in great numbers, and Beat It was the result, I can see it.  But you could dance to Beat It.  It was rhythmically fantastic, and MJ knew the world of dance.  The Lukather rhythm and VH solo brought over people who probably wouldn't have given MJ the time of day musically.  Same as Queen got with AOBTD.  They hit a grand slam home run with that, but really would people who liked that song give Ogre Battle or Brighton Rock the time of day?  No.  Same with MJ.  He had success after Thriller but his attempts to do rock/funk were formulaic with Steve Stevens on Dirty Diana, and Slashon Black and Whoite, and he was trying to recreate whathe wasn't; a rocker.  Brian is many things, and not disrespectfully, he is not cool, and Dancer sounded like a guy who couldn't dance or make the club scene trying to fit in.  Didn't work.

[QUOTE]

[b]Sebastian wrote: [/b]

As for the quote, I'd usually take Bob's word for it, but not in this case
[/QUOTE]
Well, I can swear I read it somewhere (other than Wikipedia)... so let's hope it is found some day.

But I think the musical similarities should speak for themselves.  It was probably an influence on some level.

Lets call in Adam and Jamie[img=/images/smiley/msn/regular_smile.gif][/img]

Hi, folks!

I hope you're fine.

Sebastian: No, that was not my point at all. I don't think it's a case of "no Hot Space, no Thriller". It wasn't the point of my post at all. I was just addressing the original question - the "vs" element - and agreeing with many of what you guys posted, but drawing a different conclusion.

Sir GH: I guess it's fair to say that Michael was refering to Queen's overall influence on him and how he felt that, without that background, he wouldn't be able to come up with his stuff; which must have been true of many of the other artists who influenced him. I think he singled out Hot Space for being the closer Queen got to his sound. A kind of symbol.  

-------

I would just add to my post that, as it happens to many extraordinary talents, Michael Jackson was a compromise between tradition and innovation. For instance: much of his dance is a modern update of American MGM dancing tradition: there are coreographies and steps which come straight from American musicals. Even the dressing that Astaire made so popular since his first movie - the hat and the jacket - he used. Michael's dance was step-dance basically, and that's so deeply rooted in American culture that, by cleverly updating all that and giving it the meaning people were looking for at his time, he really conquered it all.

------

Regards and take care you all,

Yara

In terms of Sound I don't find them too similar though the style is what I find alike in those two. Even Brian said it recently...


It was Michael who heard our track "Another One Bites the Dust" when he came to see us on "The Game" tour ... and told us we were mad if we didn't release it as a single. Of course this was way before Michael's monster solo career began ...but he was already in search of that fusion between Funk and Rock, Black and White, and the Thriller album was the consummation of that quest. [b]There are many similarities between it and our "Hot Space" album ... but our timing was out, really. Michael got it right in every respect ... including timing ... the world was just ready for it ... and of course he was in a sense seeking the same ground, but coming from the opposite direction[/b].

yea, but I disagree with brian in some ways. It wasn't only about timing, it was about songs.
He's trying too say it was all about timing as an exuse for the albums failure. I like hot space as a whole, but it was missing that something special, that magic that Queen usually had.  I agree with sheer brass attack that dancer found brian trying his best to make a dance song, but failed.  Body language was a decent attempt by freddie at making a dance song, but again failing.   Staying power I like for the most part, but was better live and cool cat was a nice sounding song,  but never would have been a hit.

Hot Space sounds ok, only because Brian insisted on more guitars. Make them less and it would be disaster (remember Back Chat?)

yea, back chat was another pretty good song, but even that was missing that something special.

The Queen sound is missing from Hot Space. There are no* vocal choirs and no* guitar orchestration. They failed to give the "Queen treatment" to the funk musical style and so we were left with a bunch of white English guys trying to copy what is, essentailly, black American music. It was half-arsed and not well thought out. Brian's claim that the only thing wrong was the timing of the release, is laughable. They didn't make a great record and the sales reflected this. And in gambling so radically on capturing the funk market, they lost a lot of rock fans.
 





*Probably. Shut up in advance Sebastian :)

The whole comparison thing is bogus

Thriller WOULD have happened without Hot Space without a doubt

The similarities are that they both targeted the same market - one with enormous success!

As to why Hot Space didn't work - let's look at the performances - Fred's on fine form vocally, electronic drums (erm), electronic bass (erm..), little rock guitar.....

I personally think that Hot Space (funk tracks) was all Freddie - the others weren't that interested or (in RT's and BM's case) - simply not up to it as musicians - NO FEEL!

I believe in "you are what you eat" when it comes to music.  Listen to early songs like '39 (skiffle), Leroy Brown and Good company (traditional jazz) or even later 70s songs like Mustapha (Arabic influenced.)  You could easily see that type of music being played in the Bulsara, May, Deacon and Taylor households when they were children.  As a result, their attempts at non-rock music in the early days were very successful, since it was something they all understood.  On the other hand, Roger said he hated country and western, a style Queen never handled.  It would probably come across as forced if he was involved.  Well, I think when it came time to do Hot Space, I think John and Freddie were of that dance/funk world (Freddie loved the Jackson 5, John's favourite bassist was Motown genius James Jamerson), so it was a direction that they could gravitate too.  I think Roger's contributions were fantastic, more modern or new wave sounding tracks and unfortunately the instrumentation destroyed Action This Day, whis is a shame as it was aces live.   But Dancer is IMHO in the top 3 of Brian's worst songs, Put out the Fire is un'funky, could have been on any Queen album, as could Las Palabras.  With 50% of the band not on the same page, that's not bad timing, that's bad choice in musical direction.