Banning religious symbols

By a large majority, the Swiss voted to ban construction of Islamic minarets because some see them “as a sign of encroaching Islamism”.









Meanwhile, French lawmakers have agreed to ban the burqa in hospitals, schools and other public places (though not on the streets). Sarkozy said, “The problem of the burqa is not a religious problem. This is an issue of a woman's freedom and dignity. This is not a religious symbol. It is a sign of subservience; it is a sign of lowering.” (the French have banned the burqa in schools too, but have also banned other religious symbols in schools - like the Jewish skull cap and large Christian crucifixes. So it's not just symbols of Islam being subdued.)











An opponent of the burqa ban said that the ban itself is what subjugated women by ordering them to wear something other than the burqa.











So… I wonder what the opinions are here. Do you agree with the Swiss and the French? Or do you feel these laws/ideas cross the line by inhibiting religious and personal freedoms? Would you vote for these restrictions in your country and if so, what do you think the backlash would be… if any?

No.

Everybody should be allowed to wear anything s/he wants, including religious symbols, or e.g. Hakenkreuz or Che Guevara pictures, I don't care. Also when christians are allowed to have churches, why can't muslims have minarets if they live there ?

Seriously, I'm a bloody anarchist in some aspects

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[b]pittrek wrote: [/b]

No.

Everybody should be allowed to wear anything s/he wants, including religious symbols, or e.g. Hakenkreuz or Che Guevara pictures, I don't care. Also when christians are allowed to have churches, why can't muslims have minarets if they live there ?

Seriously, I'm a bloody anarchist in some aspects [/QUOTE]
agree with you! i think everybody can wear anything, INCLUDING religious symbols. wear religious symbols is not a crime

Nice topic. : )))

Thanks.

Yes I do.

I never know what to think about this... i think everyone should be free, and people should be able to practice their religion as long as it doesn't hurt people.  But i also see the side of the argument that says that it is impinging on womens freedom, as some, esp children, may not want to wear it.  But is that a reason to ban religious expression?  The issue is the violation of women, so maybe it would be better to have more safeguards against domestic violation and subection of women, as that is the real issue, not whether they wear something or not.  I veer back and forth in what i think about this.  And i really dont understand the problem with minuets, although i vaguely remember hearing that the issue was someting to do with that they symbolise something, im not quite sure what.  I dont know, i find it hard to understand... we are supposed to be becoming more accepting, more open, less discriminatory, and then this???

Did i just say minuet? rofl  You know what i mean!

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[b]catqueen wrote: [/b]







...And i really dont understand the problem with minuets, although i vaguely remember hearing that the issue was someting to do with that they symbolise something, im not quite sure what .





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According to an AP news article... the sponsors of the ban said "Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan compared mosques to Islam's military barracks and called the minarets 'our bayonets.' Erdogan made the comment in citing an Islamic poem many years before he became prime minister."

So, they consider the minarets a threat, warning, instigation or insinuation of Islam into Swiss society, and therefore object.

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[b]catqueen wrote: [/b]

Did i just say minuet? rofl  You know what i mean![/QUOTE]
lol!

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[b]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/b]















Or do you feel these laws/ideas cross the line by inhibiting religious and personal freedoms?













































































































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Absolutely not.  Wearing a burqa is not a religious issue, nor is it an issue of personal freedom - unless you're talking about the personal freedom of men.  A burqa is nothing more than a medieval chastity belt imposed on women by men.  How many of these women get a say in the situation, and how many of them enjoy being in pure black on a 90 degree summer day?

In Canada, they proposed a bill to require all women to reveal their faces when voting, just so the folks in charge could be sure of the person's identity... but unfortunately it was thrown out.  France is right on the money with their stance, and I hope this mentality spreads.

These are not our cultural values, and never will be.  If these people don't like it, then they should stay in their home countries and practice it there.  If we western folk visit certain countries, we are required by law to dress according to their customs.  Why should we be any different when they come here?  The 21st century west should have no place for these outdated, misogynistic practices.

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[b]Sir GH wrote: [/b]





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[b]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/b]































































Or do you feel these laws/ideas cross the line by inhibiting religious and personal freedoms?





























































































































































































































































































































































































































































[/QUOTE]
Absolutely not.  Wearing a burqa is not a religious issue, nor is it an issue of personal freedom - unless you're talking about the personal freedom of men.  A burqa is nothing more than a medieval chastity belt imposed on women by men.  How many of these women get a say in the situation, and how many of them enjoy being in pure black on a 90 degree summer day?
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True, but it's still pretty much a personal choice. If a Muslim woman in the Western world wanted to truly break free from the traditional rules of Islam, they can pretty much do so, and file a restraining order against the men who are forcing them to wear a burqa.
How many of them are willing to do this? Well, it all goes back to the issue of personal choice. So any woman who wants to wear a burqa should have the freedom to do so, unless it interferes with the work of public authorities or puts personal & public safety in danger.

I believe that the vote on the minarets and discussions about scarf and burqua are substitute discussions because the Western countries are too scared to address the real issue: how do we want to live with a strong  and growing Muslim minority in our countries. Our culture requires tolerance against all religions but we do not see much tolerance in Muslim majority countries and in the Muslim communities in our own countries. We do not hear much criticism from Muslims when people are killed or threatened because they wrote some unwanted books, filmed an anti-Islam film or drew some Mohammad comics. Instead we hear a lot of applause. We feel that our freedom of speech is being threatened by the Muslim minority and for fear of being politically incorrect we do not dare to defend it.

It has not been so long ago that we freed ourselves from the rule of Christian churches and now we do not want to see other churches oppressing people in our countries ("we" is the agnostic part of the population). I do not see why Muslims should not have minarets and mosques but I do not want Turkish Imams (there are virtually no German Imams in my country!) in my country who are controlled by the Turkish government. I do not want a parallel society in my country who does not respect the constitution and the principle values of my country. It's obvious that not all Muslims are fundamentalist and Islamists and we must be fair and open.minded but we also must have the courage to address the integration issue. I do not care if someone calls me a racist because I think it's middle-age when our daughters have female teachers who wear a scarf or even a burqua. Women have fought for centuries to have equal rights and I would not want that challenged by any church. Teachers in non-religious public schools should not wear scarf or burqua, that can be required by law imo. On the other hand I think a law that tells women they cannot wear a burqua in public is absurd. How is such a law supposed to be enforced and what is the legal basis of such a law? It's hard to believe that the public feels so offended that the right of the Muslim woman to wear whatever she wears can be "outvoted".

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[b]YourValentine wrote: [/b]

On the other hand I think a law that tells women they cannot wear a burqua in public is absurd. How is such a law supposed to be enforced and what is the legal basis of such a law? It's hard to believe that the public feels so offended that the right of the Muslim woman to wear whatever she wears can be "outvoted".[/QUOTE]
What I find interesting is the argument from some that by hoping to stop what's seen as extremism by forbidding girls to wear the burqa, many girls have felt forced to leave public school to enroll in new, private Muslim schools.

Actually, I think their parents decided that the students should go to private schools. There are not so many private Muslim schools because they are under state supervision like any other school. In Germany students can wear the scarf - I do not think there are many students wearing a burqua. There are other problems: Muslim fathers do not want their daughters to take part in the swimming lessons, many fathers try to avoid to send their daughters to school at all.  Over the years German judges have started to enforce the law on Muslim families. While the girls can wear whole-body swimsuits they must take part in the swimming lessons like all other students. Religion is not accepted as a reason to stay away. It's very hard for the girls to live between the cultures when their families are totally unwilling to adopt the lifestyle of the country into which they emigrated.

the easy way would be to ban every single religous symbol of every single faith,problem solved then.
never happen though,unfortunately.