Banning religious symbols

Yara wrote:







You missed the point. We’re talking about something the state should not get involved in – it’s the person’s body and her right to peacefully dispose of it.

It's illegal to be naked in public, unless you're on a nude beach.  So the state already is involved.

Especially people already in their mid-30’s or 40’s – it’s hard, very hard for them to learn a foreign language, to the point of getting them absolutely frustrated and sad.

Fair enough.  So why do they come here if things are perfectly fine in Italy where they can interact with virtually everyone?  Why go out of your way to move to another country to limit your connection to your new culture?

In fact, for a good deal of time, Muslims, Jews and Christians lived IN PEACE in Muslim Spain during the Middle Ages!!!

...which was a time when women were second-class citizens, and it wasn't unusual to see a woman's face covered.  Not anymore.

I fully understand that it's about expressing one's cultural identity.  But there is a major difference between covering one's hair and covering one's face, which effectively obscures one's identity - the very opposite of expressing one's identity.  She is telling the world that her identity is a number, which is kind of a paradox.

On last night's news, a Muslim woman said she would stay home for the rest of her life if a law banning the burqa in public was passed.  She said how she would be imprisoned without her burqa, without the slightest sense of irony of the fact that staying in one's home for the next several decades is an imprisonment in itself.

Along with most rational people, I have no issue with Muslims as a whole.  Their issue is clearly with us if they are immigrating here from Muslim countries and effectively telling the majority that it is wrong that we believe everyone should show their faces in public.  They have no business changing the way our country works, nor do we have any business changing the way their country works.  And if we have to establish laws to maintain our country's values, then so be it.  I guess we agree to disagree.  Cheers.

A very interesting discussion spreading far beyond the original issues. Yara, it was me who said that she would not want to have her daughter being taught by a woman dressed in a burqua. I am not surprised to get Hitler and the Holocaust thrown back to me, that is normal in such discussions and I am not offended.

Here is my point of view - I agree that the Western countries are totally wrong about invading Iraq and Afghanistan and I have said that many times before. I believe that Cheney, Rumsfeld and Bush should be in jail and I protest against the participatuon myf my country in the war of Afghanistan. I agree that "our culture" is far from being perfect and many things have to be improved. I never had the attitude "right or wrong - my country", I am always critical of every government and all kinds of pressure. I certainly do defend the variety of cultures and I defend the freedom to practice any religion. As to terrorism - terrorism wasn't much my point in this discussion - terrorists are so few that I would never blame them on "the Muslims" (although we do have a terrorist problem in my country and it would be wrong to close our eyes.) We do have secret service reports and we did have a 911 court case which ended in the conviction of some (Muslim) offenders.

But with all my criticism and all my dissatisfaction with the state of "our culture": there is much progress and there a good sides of "my culture" which I find are worth defending. For example the head of my government is a woman and our foreign minister is an openly gay man - although I am far from happy with their politics I think it is a good thing that a woman can be the leader of my country these days and a gay man can be openly gay and still be accepted by the public - 65 years after gays were killed in concentration camps. I think that the increase of freedom and tolerance is enormous for a country that has a very short democratic tradition. And I think it's really ridiculous that we should throw "our culture" overboard to suit a minority instead of developing and improving it. The burqua is not required by the Quran, millions of Muslim women are religious without wearing it and I simply do not want our children to have a role model like this. The burqua is extremist and it's naive to believe otherwise. If a woman does not want to go on the street without a burqua she is not fit to teach my daughter, that is my opinion and it happens to be the opinion of the school boards, too - because it is not allowed. Of course, a woman can wear whatever she wants in her free time but for the working hours she has to adopt the usual clothing. If a teacher is a punk she cannot come to work with hundreds of piercings and pink hair - there are just limits to the personal freedom at ALL workplaces and the school is a very sensitive area because parents must be sure that their kids are not exposed to any extremist influences. Actually, I would not want my daughter been taught by a Catholic nun, either, I think this is just as extremist as a woman in a burqua.(Teachers in my country are public servants and they must swear on the constitution to be employed. All children must go to school until they are 16 years old even if they do not graduate, you cannot be home schooled unless there are very grave reasons.)

It is true that many girls are under pressure with "beauty idols" but that is a totally other story. I do not see that the alternative to a burqua is anorexia - problems like anorexia must be solved by educating the girls and working on progress in society - not falling back to the 1950s.

My initial point was about the lack of integration in our Turkish community and the social consequences from that. Of course everybody can speak the language they want. But if they do not learn the language of the country they fail in succeeding in this society and the society does not want to pay for this "right". I am sure in Turkey they would not be able to live on social welfare all their lives just refusing to learn something and to contribute to society. To make it clear: I am not in favour of cutting social welfare but we cannot afford a community that is so unwilling to be a part of this society. There must be a way to demand from immigrants that they learn the language and make a living in this country - they are not Arabs, they are Germans and their loyalty must be with the country they live in at some point. I really can relate to what magicalfreddie said about the Korean community - we have that in many cities and Germany is not even as big as Montana with 82 million people. We need to solve this issue.

Yara wrote:

"If Jews cannot fully integrate [because Jews used to uphold their cultural values and build close communities wherever they went], we have to do *something* about them". It was known as the "Jewish Question".

And the solution?[/QUOTE]
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[/QUOTE]Hollywood.





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YourValentine wrote:

 



 



A very interesting discussion spreading far beyond the original issues. Yara, it was me who said that she would not want to have her daughter being taught by a woman dressed in a burqua. I am not surprised to get Hitler and the Holocaust thrown back to me, that is normal in such discussions and I am not offended.

 



 

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Hey, ok, but I didn't throw these thing back at you - it was the Holocaust Rememberance Day yesterday. I really didn't keep in my mind the name of the user who had made the point, I tend to focus on the arguments.

But if it was you, then, ok...you know better what's best for your daughter. And for sure you're in a better position to know what's best for your country too! I don't know what kinds of issues you guys are going through. So who am I to prescribe the UNIVERSAL FREEDOM RECEIPT? : -)))))

So be it...I wouldn't be allowed to teach your daughter, then, but I can guarantee you that she'd learn MORE MATHS with me than with most teachers out there. And I'd never think of bringing my religion into the class room.

But as I said, in crucial public facilities, I think it's fair to demand people to dress in a more "neutral" way, so to speak; still, I'd like to think that the way I dress, weird as it may seem, would not prompt people to judge me solely on that basis. But I can understand the demand for such restrictions in the teaching environment of a public facility. It makes sense - I'd agree with that, even though it's not my "ideal".

It's so unlikely your daughter or anyone's daughter would take me as a role model...she'd probably poke fun at me, together with her school mates. : ))))

I think people are too scared. To the point of, voilà, thinking that a woman in a burqha would be taken as a role model by an ordinary German girl. Or a nun.

But, yes, I agree that in public schools the clothes should be at least "religion neutral". I think it's fair and I'd support such a thing, even though it's not my ideal of how things should work: I think we should all accept each other for what we are, provided we're not out there to do harm and evil, by learning to live daily with the difference, instead of marginalizing it. 

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Have a nice day, lady.

[shaking hands and taking pictures]

Cheers! 

Yara, I am sure you do not dress so unusually that you would have a problem to teach in a German public school. The burqua is a statement - just look at the Iranian revolution: how women dressed before the revolution and how they dressed after it. Women who still wore Western clothes were dragged off the streets and punished. I am totally for the right of women to wear what they want - I am not suggesting we should act like the Iranians, just the other way round. But in school I would not want a woman with a burqua making a statement. Actually, in Turkey women are not allowed to wear scarves in the university, school and other public places (students in Germany can - of course - wear what they want).

About the Holocaust/Hitler thing - I was not offended and I know you did not mean it personally. The issue is always close to our minds and it has an effect on the way we deal with such issues - clearly frightened to be racists, xenophobics and intolerant. In fact we are so frightened that we are totally unable to deal with an immigration issue in a normal way.  It's mostly extremes - either overly politically correct or right wing hate speech. When someone points out the flaws of our immigration rules or names facts and dates which are unfavourable for the Turkish community (lack of language skills, high school drop out rate, high criminal activity, high unemployment rate) they can be sure to be called Nazis.

Yara wrote:







So be it...I wouldn't be allowed to teach your daughter, then, but I can guarantee you that she'd learn MORE MATHS with me than with most teachers out there.

Genuine question here..

Suppose you lost your job and were out of work for a couple years.  The job offer finally comes in, and it's from a school with a no burqa rule.  So you're faced with the choice of teaching math or keeping your burqa on - what would you choose?

Would you be willing to scale down your burqa to a hijab that revealed your entire face, if that's what the school's rules would permit?

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[b]YourValentine wrote: [/b]



Yara, I am sure you do not dress so unusually that you would have a problem to teach in a German public school. The burqua is a statement - just look at the Iranian revolution: how women dressed before the revolution and how they dressed after it. Women who still wore Western clothes were dragged off the streets and punished. I am totally for the right of women to wear what they want - I am not suggesting we should act like the Iranians, just the other way round. But in school I would not want a woman with a burqua making a statement. Actually, in Turkey women are not allowed to wear scarves in the university, school and other public places (students in Germany can - of course - wear what they want).

About the Holocaust/Hitler thing - I was not offended and I know you did not mean it personally. The issue is always close to our minds and it has an effect on the way we deal with such issues - clearly frightened to be racists, xenophobics and intolerant. In fact we are so frightened that we are totally unable to deal with an immigration issue in a normal way.  It's mostly extremes - either overly politically correct or right wing hate speech. When someone points out the flaws of our immigration rules or names facts and dates which are unfavourable for the Turkish community (lack of language skills, high school drop out rate, high criminal activity, high unemployment rate) they can be sure to be called Nazis.

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Yes, that’s my point: it is a statement. More precisely, it is part of their cultural heritage, and the State should not, in my view, be accorded the power to judge their history!
People are making statements all the time. Think about it, just a minor example: we’re allowed to go out with a T-shirt with Che Guevara stamped on it, aren’t we?  We are indeed. Now, take his leading biographer, John Lee Anderson: he wrote a mammoth book on the guy. I thought it’d be make for an interesting reading, and I went through the whole thing. I’m not easily shocked, BUT I CAN’T DENY THE GUY WAS A COOL-BLOODED MURDERER.

Whether all those extrajudicial executions and murders were legitimate or not, that’s up to each one’s ideology and morals: people think, up until today, that yes, it was legitimate, that he was killing for a noble reason.
Same goes, to a certain extent, to Lenin. Is anyone going to forbid me to use a shirt with the figure of Lenin stamped on it? No.

In fact, there are socialist parties up until TODAY. What does history tell us? Well, among the people who said they represented these ideas are such cruel murders as Stalin, Mao and Castro.

Tariq-Ali is fully entitled to publish a book with Castro and Chávez on the cover with angel wings.
Cool. Their victims must think that this is offensive, but it’s a statement: fair play. It is fair play to the extent that STATES ARE NOT THERE TO BE THE JUDGES OF HISTORY. But if they start to act on these ideologies, well, then they should be arrested: they have no right to kill whoever it is in a democratic state like Germany. And I think that’s correct.
I actually disagree with laws making holocaust denial a crime. For exactly the same reason:  people should be allowed to speak up their minds, even if I don’t like what they’re saying.

Now, let’s get back to the woman in the burqha: isn’t she making a much MILDER statement than all those I quoted above? Yes, she is indeed. But that’s not my main point.

My main point is: yes, it is a statement done by the “burqha woman” in a largely Christian culture.

BUT: IF WE ARE SURE ABOUT OUR VALUES, SHOULDN’T WE BE ABLE TO IGNORE THESE STATEMENTS, INSOFAR AS THEY CAN’T CAUSE US ANY HARM AT ALL?
OR: IF WE FAIL TO IGNORE THEM, ISN’T IT BECAUSE WE’RE ACTUALLY TOO AFRAID OF PEOPLE BEING…PERSUADED BY THAT?

Is this fear reasonable in 21th Century Germany? Does anyone think that a woman in a burqha will be taken as a model or a paragon of anything by the German youth?

Is an ordinary German girl going to be attracted to this?

No! So why creating more barriers, having the state pass judgments on their culture and history and actually discriminating against what’s for most of women who wear it in Western culture a peaceful statement?
WHY CAN’T WE ACCEPT IT AS ONLY A STATEMENT ABOUT HERSELF, AND NOT ABOUT GERMANY, EUROPE OR THE WORLD?

Why?

[-: falling on the floor in desperation]

I do use a veil sometimes. Is it all the time? No. But sometimes, yes. Do I respect public facilities and take it off? Yes. I think it’s fair to demand something like this from Muslim women teaching in schools, and so on.
But do I use it sometimes when I go to the mall, or walk in the streets or even go to the park to exercise? Yes, I do.
Is it weird to see a girl with a veil and a long gown and Hebrew letters stamped on it walking in the park?
It is absolutely weird. People avoid you – I mean “me”, of course. But the thing is: I DON’T WANT TO BE SHOWING MY FACE ALL THE TIME.

Why the state should force me to show my face to people I don’t know?

I’m not showing my shoulders. Not even in a public school I’d accept doing it. Does it mean that I’ll preach the Torah in the classroom and stop talking about Maths? No! If I were asked about it, I’d simply say that I have a scar.

If a German girl came to me and said:

“Frau Yara, I’m afraid. I’m pregnant and don’t want to tell my family about it”.

Would I be as insensitive and ruthless as to say: “Well, you better not, because you’re going to hell”?  

Of course not! I’d say: “I’m sure your mom loves you more than anything in this world. You can trust her. Now let’s get back to our Maths, right?”

But then she replies: “Frau Yara, I want to abort. What do you think?”

I’d say: “Sweetheart, I think you should talk to your mom about it all. But, ultimately, I respect whatever the choice you make. I’m going to teach you the same way I teach the others and you’ll LEARN MATHS AS LONG AS YOU’RE MY STUDENT”.

So why are we – Jews, Muslims and Christians who still hold to their religious tradition – being so discriminated against?

Why should an atheist have more rights to her body than me?

I’d not be allowed to teach in Germany/France. People would ask me to take off the scarf, the symbols, the Jewish stars, the Hebrew letters, until I’m using shirt and jeans.

Let’s say the German girl likes Frau Yara, the teacher, to the point of wanting to change her ways.

“Frau Yara is so impressive…I’d like to dress like her”. “Frau Yara, what do I do to become Jewish”?
I’d say: “Why should you want to become Jewish?”

“Because you rock, Frau Yara”.

I’d answer: “Thanks, dear, but you’re just fine the way you are. You don’t have to change anything for people to like you”.
That’s what my religion teaches me. That’s my morals: people’s privacy and intimacy, and their right to their own personalities, are sacred. Period. That’s not negotiable.  

Would I be a dangerous and threatening influence to Germans or the French?  

The Turks are a different issue. They’re faring badly in all these aspects, as you pointed out, and they’re dressing just fine to German standards, I guess. They are stating something different – I don’t know what it is. You guys know and can address it. Turks are dumber? No! Turks are more violent than other people? No! So why are they either refusing education or being prevented by parents to fully embrace their studies?So Turks lagging behind is a different issue from this one, if that makes any sense.

Yara wrote:































































































































































































































































But the thing is: I DON’T WANT TO BE SHOWING MY FACE ALL THE TIME.

Why the state should force me to show my face to people I don’t know?

What do you have to hide?  Is it a form of safety to conceal your identity?  Is it a fear of some kind?

Does it bother you that people avoid you?  Obviously the negative feelings you get from that reaction don't outweigh whatever positive sense you get from wearing the burqa.

I'm genuinely interested in learning about what is behind this mentality.

Sorry but we are talking about very differnt things, apparently. I do not know about your country but here a teacher would not wear a Che Guevara shirt in school, it's just not appropriate clothing for a teacher at his work place. Teachers also are not allowed to wear political emblems or stickers "vote canditate abc" in school. That does not mean they cannot discuss Che Guevara or elections in school and voice their opinion. We have no school prayer or oath on the flag or other patriotic stuff  like other countries. Teachers are supposed to be neutral and if they do not want to follow the rules they must find another job. From all of your posts here I cannot imagine a situation that you as a teacher would like to wear a veil while teaching your students, it would disturb the communication greatly if the students talk into a veil and not into the face of their teacher.

I think I explained the reason for the social problems we have with Turks: they do not send their children to kindergarten and speak only Turkish at home (not all of them of course!!). When the kids come to school they often speak no German, so they need extra language courses. In the long run they are disadvantaged, hence the hogh drop-out rate. Girls are often kept away from school and have no chance to learn any profession. Since unemployment is high and a good education is needed to get a job, unemployment rate is also very high in the Turkish community, mainly among young men who are more involved into crimes than any other group in this country as a result of the unemployment.

Like Bob I would also like to know why it is so important for you to hide your face  :-) I am sure most people would like to see it.

Sir GH wrote:

 



Yara wrote:



 



 



 



So be it...I wouldn't be allowed to teach your daughter, then, but I can guarantee you that she'd learn MORE MATHS with me than with most teachers out there.



 



 



 



 



 



 



 







 

Genuine question here..

Suppose you lost your job and were out of work for a couple years.  The job offer finally comes in, and it's from a school with a no burqa rule.  So you're faced with the choice of teaching math or keeping your burqa on - what would you choose?

Would you be willing to scale down your burqa to a hijab that revealed your entire face, if that's what the school's rules would permit?

I can't speak about the burqha. I do use a veil sometimes, mainly to cover part of my hair; sometimes, I cover part of my face too.

Well, hair is one of women's sensual attributes. I want to fully display it and be gorgeously beautiful only to the person I love dearly. It's something special that I can give to this person. It doesn't matter if he's going to let me down or something. But my heart will be loyal to him as long as I love him. And that's one of the ways I have of showing my affection. Being especially beautiful to him.

Does it mean that I get reckless when it comes to other people? No! The veil covering my hair is all very finely adorned and trimmed. There are beautiful figures and symbols on it, sometimes only colorful flowers, Jewish stars and some  Hebrew words. It has the double function of concealing my hair, which I think I must preserve to special occasions, and displaying something beautiful to other people all the same - not something gross or offensive, but delicate and gentle. 

As for the face: sometimes I don't want to show my face because I'm not pure. I have done bad things, I haven't gone through purification, and I think it is wrong for me to walk around showing my face as if I had to be proud of my behavior. Other times, it's because the people I use to meet start getting too gross and rude, and I then I think they shouldn't be allowed to see my face - they will make eye-contact, and that's it. I cover my face in shame for myself and for them. 

I’d try to translate this into my experience: I do dress in a way that is likely to be banned from French or German schools. Let’s take these items separately: long, very typical ornamented dress with religious motifs; scarf with Hebrew letters and starts; if not a veil, at least something to cover the top of my head with, even if adorned only with flowers.

I wouldn’t wear a veil covering my face in the classroom. I think that’s disrespectful to students – there has to be an open, friendly atmosphere in the classroom, and they have to be able to trust me. They, my students, would have the absolute right to see my face and know much more about who I am than other people.  

People would be able to see my face, yes, my hands and that’s it. I would prefer not to exhibit either my hair or my neck.

There comes the Canadian employer.

“Hey…so, are you Yara?”

“Yes, sir. Nice to meet you”.

“Ok, Yara, see you soon. Bye”.

You see? I have been already discriminated against even before doing the interview!

But I need the job! So apply for another one. This time, although it hurts me big time and makes me deeply sad, I take off whatever it is that happens to be covering my hair.

“Hello! Are you Yara?”

“Yes. How are you, Mr. Canadian?”

“I’m fine. Well, I call you next month”.

Second time I’ve been discriminated against without having the chance to do the interview.

I’m starting to get hungry!!!!!!!!!!

I apply for another job.

This time, crying already and feeling humiliated, I take off the scarf.

“Hey, there. So you’re Yara?”

“Yes! How are you doing, Mr. Canadian?”

“Well, I’m fine. So, may I call you next week?”.

THE FOURTH TIME!

I’m beginning to get desperate. I schedule an interview with a school director.

I buy a long, simple dress, without any religious motifs, and am still not showing anything besides my hands and my face.

“Hey, Yara. You must be Yara”.

“Will you call me only next week, Mr. Canadian?”

“What?”

“Sorry. How are you, Mr. Canadian?”

“Great. So, let’s see…wow, very impressive grades! You did tremendously well in our test.”

“Thanks. I try to do my best, Mr. Canadian”.

“So, Yara, let’s try having an experimental class. You have 50 minutes”.

[class time elapsed]

“Wonderful! You did really well.”

“Cool!!!”.

“Unfortunately we can only hire one person…”.

“I see… did anyone fair better?”

“Not exactly. But we think we need someone with a different profile to communicate with students. YOU SEE, YARA, TEACHING IS NOT ONLY ABOUT IMPARTING THE KNOWLEDGE”.

“I see…”.

“You studied in many different countries, didn’t you?”

“Yes…”

“Long time in Israel, wow. That’s cool. How’s Israel?”

“Israel is lovely. You should go there with your wife and kids”.

“You bet I will. Germany, nice…and onto Brazil! Soccer! That’s terrific too. Now, I’d love to go to Brazil. So how long have you been in Canada?”

“I’ve been here for five years. I think it’s in my job permit.”

“Yes. Well, I wish you luck here in Canada, Ms. Yara!”

“Thanks, Mr. Canadian, sorry for taking up your time”.

“No problem.”

Do you know what?

The next time I’d have to be in front of the school in shirt and jeans begging for the job because I’m a foreigner!

And there’s always a limit. I’d feel so humiliated that, yes, I wouldn’t have the courage to get out to work. So I’d rather go back to my country, for as much as I hoped to live a better life in Canada and make friends. But no one would like to be friends with someone so weird, even if I worked hard to earn their trust – why do I say that? I know that because I’ve been there before in other countries: you just don’t make friends. You get so isolated that you feel like starting to resort to your close community. But that’s depressing too. So…

[Yara going back home]

This is the world.

Some think it’s good this way. Some think it’s not.

From my point of view, it’s not as good as it could be. From your point of view, it’s wonderful, because I traded my freedom for a better life in Canada. It was my choice. I didn’t want to accept your customs. I’d never be a Canadian in spirit, just like my old fellow Italian worker.

My habits, my accent, the way I dress and behave, that’d haunt me forever. So I’d finally go back home.

And Mr. Canadian wouldn’t have to schedule more useless interviews and force himself to be kind and outgoing.   
 

About building Minarets...this structure of the mosque is traditionally used to remind the people when its time for prayer. The man climbs into the top floor of the minaret and screams at the top of his voice or announces into a microphone. Apart from this practical use, i have also read somewhere (or maybe someone told me) that minarets are built in such a way as to be the tallest religious structure of the locality, in order to symbolise the supremacy of islam over other religions.
Is banning minarets warranted? Ridiculous- just a way  (and a wrong way too) to get back at muslims to show who's the boss.
The government would serve the people and country better by keeping an eye on the operations of the Mosque/Islamic religious schools- where they get the funds from, how the funds are utilised, what type of discussions take place inside, what type of arms and ammunition (if any) are kept inside. Such instituions are the fertile breeding grounds for polarising and communalising young mulims, and indeed even to recruit future suicide suckers.

YourValentine wrote:

Sorry but we are talking about very differnt things, apparently. I do not know about your country but here a teacher would not wear a Che Guevara shirt in school, it's just not appropriate clothing for a teacher at his work place. Teachers also are not allowed to wear political emblems or stickers "vote canditate abc" in school. That does not mean they cannot discuss Che Guevara or elections in school and voice their opinion. We have no school prayer or oath on the flag or other patriotic stuff  like other countries. Teachers are supposed to be neutral and if they do not want to follow the rules they must find another job. From all of your posts here I cannot imagine a situation that you as a teacher would like to wear a veil while teaching your students, it would disturb the communication greatly if the students talk into a veil and not into the face of their teacher.

I think I explained the reason for the social problems we have with Turks: they do not send their children to kindergarten and speak only Turkish at home (not all of them of course!!). When the kids come to school they often speak no German, so they need extra language courses. In the long run they are disadvantaged, hence the hogh drop-out rate. Girls are often kept away from school and have no chance to learn any profession. Since unemployment is high and a good education is needed to get a job, unemployment rate is also very high in the Turkish community, mainly among young men who are more involved into crimes than any other group in this country as a result of the unemployment.

Like Bob I would also like to know why it is so important for you to hide your face  :-) I am sure most people would like to see it.

Yeah, but I don't think everyone should be allowed to see my face. It's a sacred part of my body. It's something so intimate: my face, in a sense, says A LOT about me. And I don't want anyone being able to search into my soul by looking at my face.  I don't cover it all. It's not like I'm wearing a mask to hide my identity - people can see my eyes and part of my cheeks. I do take it off in public facilities or when I'm starting to get better acquainted with someone. 

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Now, I wasn't talking about schools. I agree that in schools teachers should not use veils, as I said. I wouldn't dare to use it myself - I find it disrespectful. My students have the right to know much more about myself than the casual person. And, as I said, it's important for them to be able to trust me or at least to feel they're in a friendly, light atmosphere.

I still wouldn't be allowed to teach in Germany or France, because of the religious symbols and, eventually, something partially covering my hair with symbols on it. I'd only be allowed to teach, for sure, if I took all the religious motifs off and presented myself in a way that is degrading to me. Then, just as you said, I'd have to either look for another job or go back home. That's correct! I don't think this is wrong. I'd like things to be different? Yes. I'd like people to be able to respect my tradition? For sure. Does my tradition entails disrespect for other people? Not at all. Would I discuss Judaism in the classroom? As I said, no. Is it enough? No. That's not how the world works. I either assimilate or go find another job.

Mine is a different point. It has much more to do with being accepted for what you are, with all your traditions and all your positive and negative aspects, than with anything else.

Bob and I were not talking about school only. We're talking about me being a second-rate Canadian, for instance, for wearing a kind of cloth or having some customs which prevented me from being a CANADIAN IN SPIRIT, as Bob pointed out.

On top of it, there's the accent, the struggle to communicate, all that - and I've been discriminated against in Europe for every one of these reasons: accent, clothing, ethnicity, everything.

In Germany, a lady felt she had the right to slap my hand because I wanted to help her get some books that had fallen on the ground. She tried to do it a second time and I only avoided getting hit because I withdrawed my arm.

I left the store crying.

The police searched me once. They had me open my purse and got someone to check me up. I WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO RECEIVED THIS KIND OF TREATMENT among I don't know how many people. It was in a subway, I guess. When I asked "why only me", a woman replied: "We have nothing to be sorry about. We're doing our job. You may go".

From all people, I was the only one who got this kind of treatment. Of course it was prejudice.

This is life for people like us in Germany, France or whatever.

So there's a part of me who says: "Well, life condition is so much better there. I may find a good job and enjoy a good life". On the other hand, I have to think twice because I'm likely to be isolated and forced to live in close communities for the rest of my life; I'm bound to be subjected to prejudice all the time - clothing, costums, ethnicity, accent, all that.
 
The funny thing is: I've been going to New York for a couple of years already. I had never been so well-received in a foreign country before. And it was pretty much like that all across the U.S. 

I'm not saying the U.S is perfect. But I didn't go through anything near what I experienced in Europe.  

Sir GH wrote:
In Canada, they proposed a bill to require all women to reveal their faces when voting, just so the folks in charge could be sure of the person's identity... but unfortunately it was thrown out. 

[/QUOTE]
Really! That is so surprising. Compare that with the judgement passed in the Indian Supreme Court just a few days ago in regards to issuanse of Voter ID cards to women in burqas- the Supreme Court has clearly stated that burqa clad women will not be given voters identity card if they refuse to remove their veil for having photograph being taken for having their names on the roles.
Check it out - http://www.indiafolks.com/current-affairs/no-voter-identity-card-for-burqa-clad-women-voters-says-supreme-court/

Yara wrote:




There comes the Canadian employer.

“Hey…so, are you Yara?”

“Yes, sir. Nice to meet you”.

“Ok, Yara, see you soon. Bye”.

You see? I have been already discriminated against even before doing the interview!
 

Say I own a small business, and place a help-wanted ad in the local paper. My clients are mostly middle-aged, white-collar, English-speaking Americans. Someone replies to my ad and we make an appointment to meet. From her email response, this person seems like the perfect candidate. However, when she arrives at my door, she's wearing black lipstick, thick eyeliner, a low-cut blouse, miniskirt and thigh-high boots, and she has a tattoo going from the side of her neck down her arm. Not one religious symbol adorns her body or clothing.

Will I consider hiring her? Uh... no.

She may be the perfect candidate for any non-public work I might have, but face-to-face, she'd make my clients uncomfortable. Why? Because they'd need to interact with her and the immediate impression they'd have is that she couldn't possibly understand their needs since her focus is clearly on an attitude or outlook in contrast with theirs. Hiring her would be unfair to them and to me. I want customers to come into my store and feel welcomed and at ease. I want them to be willing to stick around so I can sell them plenty of goods. If they're going to do a double-take, I want it to be at my products, not my employee. Her appearance would chase my clientele right out the door, and make me feel the need to apologize for her. Rather than put myself, my business or my customers through that, I'll simply look for someone more representative of the local demographics. She is the odd one out. Should I feel beholden to her because she is expressing herself? Should I put her right to do so ahead of my client's rights? Or my rights? You say you are an expert in teaching math, well, this young woman might be an expert in the position for which she's applying. I will never know, nor will I care, because the difficulties she represents for all I mentioned above far outweigh any benefit she might provide. A shame for both of us.

It's not solely about religious adornments and discrimination. Wear your religious attire if you are comfortable doing so. But do not expect those who do not share your views to be comfortable - or accepting - around you.

To contrast what I just said, I'll point out the difference between wearing, say, a t-shirt with a negative slogan on it, and wearing religious garb... religion has been fueling wars for eons. Over the past decade, the gap between religions, and between religious and non-religious people, has widened. Tensions are undeniably high. Those of faith are defending their faith with fervor against the influx of other faiths and other faiths are fighting back. The last administration in my country insinuated religion in almost every decision it made, further dividing this country, further fueling frustration over anything overtly-religious. Will I, personally, feel uncomfortable speaking with a Muslim woman wearing a headscarf, or with an orthodox Jewish woman wearing a wig? No. I see it every day, just as I see Indian women wearing Saris (sp?). I find the difference in cultures exciting and alluring. But if a woman covered except for her eyes comes into my space, I will see her as a symbol of all that divides us.

There is an arrogance behind that veil - you alluded to it yourself when you said, "I cover my face in shame for myself and for them." Though your intention might be 'pure', the action and words to explain it do not seem so. You feel others are sometimes not good enough for you and sometimes you are not good enough for them. How morbidly archaic that thought process seems in this modern world. We all feel disgust at ourselves and others from time to time, but do we literally hang/hide our heads in shame? Or do we try to better ourselves or, perhaps, avoid those who would insult or hurt us? Punishing perceived impurity with an act of defiance and vanity by not permitting others to see the 'beauty' of one's face is an act that simply oozes with contradictions.

magicalfreddiemercury wrote:



 However, when she arrives at my door, she's wearing black lipstick, thick eyeliner, a low-cut blouse, miniskirt and thigh-high boots, and she has a tattoo going from the side of her neck down her arm. Not one religious symbol adorns her body or clothing. 

[/QUOTE]... I'd buy that for a dollar!!