I believe that the vote on the minarets and discussions about scarf and burqua are substitute discussions because the Western countries are too scared to address the real issue: how do we want to live with a strong and growing Muslim minority in our countries. Our culture requires tolerance against all religions but we do not see much tolerance in Muslim majority countries and in the Muslim communities in our own countries. We do not hear much criticism from Muslims when people are killed or threatened because they wrote some unwanted books, filmed an anti-Islam film or drew some Mohammad comics. Instead we hear a lot of applause. We feel that our freedom of speech is being threatened by the Muslim minority and for fear of being politically incorrect we do not dare to defend it.
It has not been so long ago that we freed ourselves from the rule of Christian churches and now we do not want to see other churches oppressing people in our countries ("we" is the agnostic part of the population). I do not see why Muslims should not have minarets and mosques but I do not want Turkish Imams (there are virtually no German Imams in my country!) in my country who are controlled by the Turkish government. I do not want a parallel society in my country who does not respect the constitution and the principle values of my country. It's obvious that not all Muslims are fundamentalist and Islamists and we must be fair and open.minded but we also must have the courage to address the integration issue. I do not care if someone calls me a racist because I think it's middle-age when our daughters have female teachers who wear a scarf or even a burqua. Women have fought for centuries to have equal rights and I would not want that challenged by any church. Teachers in non-religious public schools should not wear scarf or burqua, that can be required by law imo. On the other hand I think a law that tells women they cannot wear a burqua in public is absurd. How is such a law supposed to be enforced and what is the legal basis of such a law? It's hard to believe that the public feels so offended that the right of the Muslim woman to wear whatever she wears can be "outvoted".
[/QUOTE]
It's definitely not racism (we are all the same race), more like xenophobia, and it's absolutely logical. "Logical" doesn't mean "correct", of course :-)
You are right, European (and other) politicians are trying to solve the effects instead of the causes. Millions of people worldwide are afraid of Muslims, and most of them have actually never seen a living Muslim :-) It's also the fault of modern media, where after 9/11 Muslims were shown only negatively, as terrorists and fanatics, but statistically terrorists are an insignificant part of the Muslim community, something similar as christian terrorists or maybe atheist terrorists ...
I was born in a town with a medical school visited also by muslim students, so I'm used to meet Muslims since I've been a child and never head a problem with them. The main problems with (mostly) muslim immigrants in other countries is that they are not fully integrated into the majority, simply because the majority doesn't want them. A proper integration is the only possible solution. OR to prohibit ALL migrations, but that would lead us back to 18. century.
You wrote about cases like Muhammad caricatures, or anti-Islam movies and the violent acts by some Muslims, but you don't write about Christian priests who burned Harry Potter books because they are encouraging to practice black magic.
Sorry if I'm too chaotic but what I tried to say is
1) All fanatics are dangerous, no matter which God do they believe in.
2) Nobody should care about somebody's religion (or atheism), sexual orientation, cultural habits, fashion ...
3) All we should care about are LAWS. EVERYBODY who wants to live in country X should obey the laws of country X. If something is fully legal in country Y, and illegal in country X, nobody can do it in country X
4) A teacher with a burqa belongs to a religious school, NOT TO A PUBLIC SCHOOL.
I hope at least 50% of the gibberish I wrote is understandable to native speakers :-)
FriedChicken · Member since
I don't have a problem with civilians wearing religious symbols. Since they aren't bothering anyone with it.
Also, if christians can have their churches, jews can have their synagoges. Give the muslims their mosques.
I do have a problem with religion in schools. Fortunatly we don't have that problem in The Netherlands, but it's a problem in a lot of other countries (USA, UK etc)
pittrek · Member since
[QUOTE]
[b]Sir GH wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
[b]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/b]
Or do you feel these laws/ideas cross the line by inhibiting religious and personal freedoms?
[/QUOTE]
Absolutely not. Wearing a burqa is not a religious issue, nor is it an issue of personal freedom - unless you're talking about the personal freedom of men. A burqa is nothing more than a medieval chastity belt imposed on women by men. How many of these women get a say in the situation, and how many of them enjoy being in pure black on a 90 degree summer day?
In Canada, they proposed a bill to require all women to reveal their faces when voting, just so the folks in charge could be sure of the person's identity... but unfortunately it was thrown out. France is right on the money with their stance, and I hope this mentality spreads.
These are not our cultural values, and never will be. If these people don't like it, then they should stay in their home countries and practice it there. If we western folk visit certain countries, we are required by law to dress according to their customs. Why should we be any different when they come here? The 21st century west should have no place for these outdated, misogynistic practices.
[/QUOTE]
It depends on which country are you talking about. The situation differs from country to country. There are countries where a woman can be beaten up for "dressing like a hooker" and there are countries where women can walk on streets almost naked and nobody cares :-)
YourValentine · Member since
Your comments make perfect sense to me, pittrek. It really depends on the situation. In Germany Turkish people moved into the country in the 1970s when cheap labour was needed - low qualified workers who did the jobs Germans did not want. Before Turkish workers were hired we had Italian and Portuguese "guest workers". The Italian and Portuguese workers either returned to their homelands or became German citizens integratiing into the society with no problems. The Turks, however, stayed and never integrated all the same. This issue was ignored for decades by the German government - Germany not being an immigration country at ll, when in fact it already was!
In the first place it was the fault of the German society not to care about this minority in the country and just hoping there won't be an integration issue. But now we have 3rd generation Turkish people who still do not speak any German. While a minority is well integrated like probably your medical students (and nobody cares if they are Muslim, Kurds or Christians) , the majority has established a parallel society refusing to teach their kids proper German and unwilling to become a part within the society rather than outside. 30% of Turkish origin young people are school drop outs, 25 % of all Turkish origin people live on social welfare and are unemployed. Most of these people are Muslims and their religioius leaders are sent to the country by the Turkish government which has not proven to have much respect for democracy or other religions and people (see the persecution of the Kurds in Turkey). Of course most Muslims just want to live in peace and raise their kids in a safe environment but how can we know the intentions of people who are not even willing to learn the language of the country they have been living in for 3 generations. We are certainly just as xenophobic as any other nation but the collective German guilt complex kicks in immediately when Turkish people complain that they are discriminated because German teachers do not learn the Turkish language to provide for better school results for their kids. After three generations it is up to the immigrants to make an effort to succeed in this society and not the other way round imo.
And I have not even touched issues like forced marriages, "honour murders", import of non-German speaking wives (because the women who were raised in Germany are not submissive enough for many Turkish men), Islamistic cells and sleepers which are rare and far between but still very serious problems.
pittrek · Member since
[QUOTE]
... But now we have 3rd generation Turkish people who still do not speak any German ...
[/QUOTE]
Exactly THAT is the problem, and that's what the governments should care about. Education, employment, integration .
It's sad that instead of it they are solving the effects and not causes.
But that's how politicians are :-)
Holly2003 · Member since
Wow, a sensble s#discussion on Queenzone. Who woulda thunked it? ;)
Reminds me of a question Alan Bloom asked in his book, the Closing of the American Mind: If you were a British administrator in colonial India, would you permit the burning of a wife at the funeral of her husband? Do you impose your Western standards on the indiginous population, or do you respect their culture? Even though I disagree with most of Bloom's conclusions, I've never been able to adequately answer that particular question.
YourValentine · Member since
Well, a British administrator in colonial India did not respect the right of Indians to govern themselves in the first place, so the question how to handle such traditions is really secondary. The truth is that some people in Germany (and other countries like The Netherlands, for example) already feel like living in a state of occupation by another culture. There must be a rational and applicable plan to resolve the intergration issues or else right wing nuts will profit from the situation.
magicalfreddiemercury · Member since
[QUOTE]
[b]pittrek wrote: [/b]
[QUOTE]
... But now we have 3rd generation Turkish people who still do not speak any German ...
[/QUOTE]
Exactly THAT is the problem, and that's what the governments should care about. Education, employment, integration.
[/QUOTE]
I think what everyone is saying is valid - and Joxer, I understood your post entirely. ;-) - but the first thing I thought when I read the above post- not that it's wrong - is the "Christmas day terrorist" here in the states was neither poor, unemployed or uneducated. Neither, as we know, is Bin Laden. Though I agree education and integration are vital, they are not a guarantee and they're not - or shouldn't be - one-sided.
Here in the states, we have a variety of ethnic communities. 'Homeland' language, foods, fashions, religions and customs are as varied as you can imagine. It's exciting and fascinating to walk into an Indian neighborhood, for example, to shop or dine. I've never felt unwelcomed or fearful of the cultural differences from one community to the other (that's not to say there haven't been some major problems).
However, there is one group of people, one culture, here that holds an obvious contempt for others. The majority of these people refuse to speak English, they've pooled their resources as a community and have purchased beautiful neighborhood homes, only to tear them down and build 'churches' that they use nearly 24/7 for... who knows what.
Many of them have become real estate agents and have exclusive showings - meaning they have refused to show homes to anyone not from their community. There are now three families living within doors of my own home and though they've been here for several years now, they refuse to look at me or other neighbors not of their culture. There have been town-hall meetings, outcries in the local paper, letters to our councilman and more, asking laws to be enforced that forbid business to put up signs solely in a language other than English. This community resisted for years and only recently have they begun to update their signs. It's only now that we know what these stores are since not only were the signs in their language (Korean) but the store windows were blackened, covered by shades or otherwise blocked so no one could see in from the street. At this point, despite the English signs now on the stores, no one outside their community will shop in them anyway. They have successfully made long-time residents feel unwelcome in their own town. These people are not terrorists, they are not extremists, but they are exclusionists.
I mention all this is because I wonder if they dressed in the equivalent of a burqa and it was outlawed, would it change who they were as a people? Would it make them more accepting of the culture into which they moved?
How do you change an attitude?
A report I read recently said Muslims in the US have, mostly, been accepted, and have thriving communities like many other ethnic communities in this country. That helps to keep tensions on both sides from escalating. However, that's not to say there aren't terrorist cells here, that home-grown terrorists don't exist or that unacceptable parts of the Muslim culture is not practiced here... for example, just recently, a Muslim father ran down his daughter and her friend because they'd become too Westernized. The friend survived, but the daughter died from the injuries he caused. Just before that, another Muslim father, a cab driver, was supposed to drive his two teenage daughters to school. The older one had wanted to attend a high school dance and the family had just argued about the impropriety of that. Fearing an inability to 'save' his daughters from a life of sin, he didn't drive them to school, but parked in a remote spot, then shot and killed both of them.
These men showed no sign of behaving this way. Their non-Muslim neighbors were stunned because the men had become an integral part of the community. So, while on some level, I agree with the banning of overtly religious symbols and such, I can't help wonder how such bans will actually encourage integration or prevent extremism.
Yara · Member since
I guess it's fair to say that, on the specific question concerning the clothing, people should have their own way, unless the garment is likely to cause trouble in crucial public facilities, such as public schools. On the other hand, if my daughter judged her teacher on the basis of how she dresses, well, I'd think it's my daughter's fault.
But that takes a little bit of explanation. Let's go.
Why should I assume that girls who go into suicidal sick diets, become depressed and torture themselves because they think they can't wear bikinis or miniskirts are enjoying more freedom than the Muslim woman who choses to wear a burqha?
We should take care when talking about "our culture" too. If "our culture" produced Robespierre, who went on killing hundreds of thousands in the name of "reason" and secularism; if "our culture" produced Napoleon or Stalin, I think it's fair to say that we should accord other people's cultures more tolerance.
Let's not get that deep. Something more superficial: the problem is that people don't actually know Muslims. They know stereotypes. The finest proof I have that this is a false, fabricated debate is that I'm Jewish myself, very religious, and I'm friends with many Muslims: clothing is not an issue at all between us.
Many Israeli Jews are friends with Muslims. When they do clash, it's not because the way each other dresses: it's because one country has its troops in the other guys' garden. And that can be annoying.
I can't pretend there are no Western troops in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.
Now, these are reasons for conflict - clashes over resources and wealth. Yeah, that causes a whole lot of conflict, and there's always going to be some populistic freak who's going to use whatever the ideology or religion to his advantage and enlist the miserable, destitute or outright fanatics for his cause.
We talk about Turkey. But the suicide bombers who exploded Western trains and buildings were not from Turkey.
Not that I expect intelligence from public debates. I gave up on it some time ago.
I think humanity is doomed. It failed. The best States can do is trying to avoid doing harm by:
a) Withdrawing troops from invaded countries and stop engaging in violence;
b) Stop trying to regulate every single aspect of people's lives, thus creating more frustration and resentment throughout the nations - or the banning of certain kinds of clothings would help us live better with our betheren? Of course not - it'd only generate more division, more intolerance, more violence.
----------------------------
So, as far the clothing goes, I reaaally think that people should have it their way, unless the law, in exceptional occasions, requires them not to when it comes to some public facilities.
---------------------------
If one thinks mosques are being used as a terrorist haven, well, get a court order, by legal means, and do the search. If that doesn't work, get your secret agents there and produce your intelligence:
But, really, if your intelligence ends up...messing things up, so to speak, and a country gets invaded, well, please, don't blame it on Muslims who didn't have anything to do with it.
-------------------------
Thanks for your attention, I may bid you farewell now.
------------------------
[taking the dishes and the cups and going out to the kitchen to exert my female liberation by myself] ; -))))
[gently closing the door]
PS1: And to thinkt that Europeans got mad because Native Americans went about naked...
PS2: An aphorism you can quote at will, provided you give me the due credits. I put the quotations mark for you, I'm kind. : ) It's annoying to reach for two keys just to produce a single symbol...lol: "We in the West came to think that it is some way progressive to show our butts. Personally, I think progressive is being able to decide whether to chose it or not; and if so, when and where."
And NO COUNTRY has got to PS2 level yet. ; )))
JoxerTheDeityPirate · Member since
perhaps Joanna Lumley can lend the Burkas her support again ;-p
The Real Wizard · Member since
[QUOTE]
[b]magicalfreddiemercury wrote: [/b]
What I find interesting is the argument from some that by hoping to stop what's seen as extremism by forbidding girls to wear the burqa, many girls have felt forced to leave public school to enroll in new, private Muslim schools.
[/QUOTE]
Great! As long as our tax dollars don't pay for it, it's one less issue for the public school system to deal with.
[QUOTE]
[b]YourValentine wrote:[/b]
Turkish people complain that they are discriminated because German teachers do not learn the Turkish language to provide for better school results for their kids. After three generations it is up to the immigrants to make an effort to succeed in this society and not the other way round imo.
[/QUOTE]
Fully agreed. Here in Canada we have hundreds of thousands of Italian people (mostly seniors now) who can't speak a word of English. To me they will never be Canadians if they cannot integrate themselves into our culture. My grandparents came here after WWII without a dime in their pocket and learned the language, worked hard for 35 years, and paid their taxes. And now their tax dollars are paying for new immigrants to sit at home and do nothing, making more money on refugee status than the average worker makes, and sending their kids to school wearing a burqa, demanding that their kid shouldn't be "forced" to participate in gym class because it infringes on their "religious rights" not to take the burqa off.
To me it is appalling that people can come here now and demand that we change our ways for them, and have a social worker waiting for them to show the way to the to the social assistance office. How can these people live with themselves knowing that a country let them in and they dare to disrespect that country's established customs? If they like their ways so much, then why did they leave their country in the first place? They should go back home if things are so good there.
Yara · Member since
But according to Canadian laws, which still don't abide by Hitler's standards, and Canada is as diverse as a country can be in terms of ethnic composition, thanks goodness, they are fully entitled to citizenship even if they didn't learn to speak English properly - immigrants helped build your country. They did very hard work many people didn't want to or just couldn't. If the Italian in question has worked for years in your country and has been granted citizenship, he's as a citizen as yourself: and, by the way, social workers do have to deal with fluent English-speaking Canadians as well...who get into...drugs and other sorts of problems.
But when unemployment strikes back...then there's xenophobia.
Now, this argument is not substantially different from what people argued in XIX Century France and Russia or, for that matter, in mid-20th Century Germany:
"If Jews cannot fully integrate [because Jews used to uphold their cultural values and build close communities wherever they went], we have to do *something* about them". It was known as the "Jewish Question".
This *something* throughout the years has been guetoization, expulsion, deportation, confinement, forced labor and, finally, genocide.
What I tried to show - and I do think that a culture which produced two mass murders (Napoleon and Robespierre, just to name these two) in the name of reason, is not in a position, JUST LIKE SARKOZY DID, and that's the debate, to teach people what "freedom" is - is that in the name of "reason" and of our allegedly superior values, it seems we just can't stop bashing other people and behaving in an outright racist way towards them.
Just think a minute: "Our values" allow for a HUGE porn industry.
Yet, we are talking about keeping a woman from using whatever the hell she wants...
Our values allow for stupid unfair wars in the Middle East - the FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER WENT TO THE POINT OF SAYING THAT A CROOK WAS OK...BECAUSE IT WAS...THE WEST'S CROOK IN THE MIDDLE EAST.
And that passed as political realism...
And, now, they are complaining that a Muslim woman wants to wear a veil? Oh, come on.
-------------
I never thought I'd come out to defend...Muslims!!! But, guess what, I fully agree with people who say they should wear whatever they want.
"Our" own girls wear what they want? Or do they succumb to fashion? Or do they get sick, in fact, and depressed because they want so hard to match the standards advanced by fashion and other industries?
-------
I'm by far the best student in my class. I know more Maths than my teacher this semester. I HAVE ALREADY BEEN INVITED TO STUDY IN CANADA.
Now, let's say I decided to stay there: I use weird clothes, for sure. Have you ever seen how hasidic Jewish women dress? So try to know how it looks like. My accent is horrible. But whatever the person, be she/he Canandian or Chinese, WILL LEARN MATHS AS LONG AS I'M ENTITLED TO TEACH. That I can guarantee!
I wouldn't accept any idiot telling me what I should or should not wear if I'm entering a class room to TEACH MATHS - SOMETHING I CAN DO BETTER THAN MOST PEOPLE MY AGE, CANADIANS OR AMERICANS OR WHATEVER. It's a matter of statistics. I'd be worse off only in South Korea, I guess. lol But then it's unfair...hehe.
And that's how prejudice starts as well. If an ethnic group, and that has been happening to Jews for centuries, suceeds where other people fail, racism starts to strike hard: "The Jewish Lobby", "The Elders of Zion", or whatever the hell it is that people use to express their frustration towards the economic or political state of things.
----------
And you know what's the problem?
I'LL TELL YOU ALL WHAT'S THE PROBLEM.
[preparing myself to tell everyone what's the problem]
THE PROBLEM IS THAT IT'S STILL SO HARD FOR US TO LIVE WITH THE DIFFERENCE, as tolerant as we think we may be.
And we come up with an arsenal of rationals to justify this difficulty.
That goes both ways - Muslim towards Christians and Atheists; Atheists towards Muslims; Jews towards Muslims and vice-versa...
We get fricking scared of whatever happens to be too "alien" or "different" from us.
And then we start thinking in terms of "us" and "them".
That's never good!
---------
WE DO THINGS IN THE NAME OF INTELLIGENCE AND REASON, BUT OUR INTELLIGENCE SERVICES HAVE PRODUCED A MASS SLAUGHTERING IN IRAQ...
And now we curse the Muslims for wearing whatever it is they want to wear.
-----------
People have to learn to respect themselves and to respect others. If they think burqha is ok for them, fine; if they think naked is better, fine! Do it.
----------
But males will still be forced to used suits in 40 degrees summers...hehehehe.
: -))))))))))))))))))
john bodega · Member since
I don't think we should ever ban religious symbols. [/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]I think all religions should be absolutely free (don't even leave an option for donations) and that church and state should be 100% independent of each other.[/QUOTE] [/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]That won't solve the world's problems, but I bet it'd nip a few in the bud.[/QUOTE]
The Real Wizard · Member since
[QUOTE]
[b]Yara wrote: [/b]
But according to Canadian laws, which still don't abide by Hitler's standards, and Canada is as diverse as a country can be in terms of ethnic composition, thanks goodness, they are fully entitled to citizenship even if they didn't learn to speak English properly - immigrants helped build your country.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, immigrants like my grandparents... not like these Italian people who cannot speak with someone who isn't Italian. There's a difference between not being able to speak the language 'properly' and not being able to speak it 'at all'. Naturally I'm not suggesting that one should drop their native language from their lives and speak only English.
[QUOTE]If the Italian in question has worked for years in your country and has been granted citizenship, he's as a citizen as yourself.[/QUOTE]
On paper, yes. But in spirit, no. If my country's official languages are English and French and you can speak neither after being here for 10 years, to me you are not an equal citizen. I would never dare move to Germany and have the arrogance not to learn German. I am their guest on their soil, and it would be up to me to show them the utmost respect for welcoming me into their country.
[QUOTE]Just think a minute: "Our values" allow for a HUGE porn industry. Yet, we are talking about keeping a woman from using whatever the hell she wants...[/QUOTE]
What a silly comparison. Nobody is forcing anyone to watch porn. We're talking about people from other countries forcing their values on our establishes values, i.e. equality of women. By not prohibiting this activity, we are encouraging it, and thereby stepping backwards 100 years when women were seen as second-class citizens. Until they are filming porn movies on the street in the middle of the day, these are two completely separate issues.
[QUOTE]I fully agree with people who say they should wear whatever they want.[/QUOTE]
Even when they're voting, so you can't see who the voter is? How about their driver's license picture? On second thought, these women can't even see the road if their faces are covered. Would their husbands let them work even if employers would hire someone who wouldn't reveal their face?
[QUOTE]"Our" own girls wear what they want? Or do they succumb to fashion? Or do they get sick, in fact, and depressed because they want so hard to match the standards advanced by fashion and other industries?[/QUOTE]
Surely there is a happy medium between "succumbing to fashion" and dressing in pure black from head to toe, face fully covered.
[QUOTE]THE PROBLEM IS THAT IT'S STILL SO HARD FOR US TO LIVE WITH THE DIFFERENCE, as tolerant as we think we may be. We get fricking scared of whatever happens to be too "alien" or "different" from us. And then we start thinking in terms of "us" and "them". That's never good![/QUOTE]
Right on the money... but it doesn't apply to this situation. We cannot put up blinders and be tolerant of any and every point of view. They are the ones creating "us" and "them" by wearing black from head to toe in a non-Muslim nation where women are to be treated with equality. Don't demonize anyone for simply pointing it out.
[QUOTE]But males will still be forced to used suits in 40 degrees summers...hehehehe.[/QUOTE]
Haha, that I'd agree with. It'd be a very small step, but it'd at least make women equal to men, which is what this is ultimately about. In the 21st century, we should not be tolerant of any practice that teaches our children that women are to be treated differently than men, full stop. If we need laws to ensure women appear to be equal to men in public, then I am all for it.
Yara · Member since
You missed the point. We’re talking about something the state should not get involved in – it’s the person’s body and her right to peacefully dispose of it. Dressing is a very intimate issue, and is part of the way we express our identity – it may come across as weird, but it’s not wrong, for a woman to want to dress like this.
There are people who may be repugnant to our eyes: they tattoo all their bodies, have piercings put from head to toe, dress in black and go to cemeteries at night. One could argue that such a person is a risk to society – “He’s so on the fringe, I’m afraid he’s going to pick up a gun and start shooting people”. Just like people did, by the way, when they accused Marlin Manson of having inspired the crimes in Columbine…
-----------------------------
The point is: it’s a deep, complete and absurd misunderstanding of Islamic culture to think that these women dress like this just because they’re forced to; that all of them are eager to use jeans, or shorts, or miniskirts: no, they’re not. Many, or most of them, to be precise, want to keep being able to dress the way they want, period – not because someone is threatening her, but because she wants to, it’s her way of expressing her cultural identity and differentiating herself from the masses.
The same happens to me. I may not be all covered from head to toe, but I’m almost there: no one ever forced me to dress like this. The way I dress doesn’t affect the way I think, and my first responsibility is doing what I’m supposed to do the best way I can, without allowing my religion to step in.
You know what? MOST MUSLIM WOMEN ARE LIKE THIS!!! They work hard, they don’t let their religion disturb their job, they pick up jobs in call-centers or hospitals, and most of them are great employees. IT’S NOT LIKE THAT BECAUSE I WANT TO. IT’S SO BECAUSE…THAT’S THE REALITY! There are even studies about this.
And the major point is: the Western powers have been holding military bases in their countries for decades. Countries have been invaded out of thin air, without a shred of evidence: MOST MUSLIMS TOLERATE THIS. YES. The percentage of Muslims who opt for terrorism is very small.
IF THEY CAN TOLERATE TROOPS BASHING THEIR PEOPLE ON THE GROUND, WHY ON EARTH, FOR A SIMPLE REASON OF RECIPROCITY, CAN’T WE ALLOW THEM THEIR RIGHT TO PEACEFULLY DECIDE ABOUT THEIR BODIES BY WEARING WHATEVER THEY WANT TO WEAR?
---------------------------------
I will repeat: the Holocaust, the Terror, all that happened back on our side – AND IT DIDN’T HAPPEN IN THE MIDDLE AGES.
So it’s quite funny to see someone saying, just like above, and I don’t remember who it was because I’m not pointing fingers, but only discussing arguments: “I don’t want my daughters back into the Middle Ages”.
In fact, for a good deal of time, Muslims, Jews and Christians lived IN PEACE in Muslim Spain during the Middle Ages!!!
In our own enlightened era, though, something like the Holocaust happened, less than a century ago.
About languages:
-----------------
Don’t be so quick to pass such judgments. There are a lot of people who have a whole lot of problem to understand a foreign language: it’s a major issue for schools, governments and the like. Especially people already in their mid-30’s or 40’s – it’s hard, very hard for them to learn a foreign language, to the point of getting them absolutely frustrated and sad.
Now, if the job this person does requires only a modicum of English, and if this person is able to do it, why erect such barriers?
YES, THERE ARE people who, out of a state of confusion or even arrogance, refuse to learn the language of the country she’s in. But guess what?
- If the person doesn’t know the language, it’s likely she’s not going to get a job. If she fails to get a job, she faces the risk of being deported back home – and that happens EVERY SINGLE DAY.
So most of the people you’re talking about have already being punished in one way or another.
WE’RE TALKING HERE ABOUT THE LEGAL IMMIGRANTS; ABOUT THE WORKERS; ABOUT REFUGEES, for Christ (lol) sake, of wars the Western countries created!
Why can’t we allow them to wear what they want?
The minority of Muslims are violent or terrorists.
Many Muslim women, Shia and Suni alike, dress themselves more rigidly when they’re in the outside, but they do use more informal clothing when they’re at home – it’s not like they’re dangerous fanatics! They feel they have to preserve their bodies when they’re out – I’m not the one who’s going to judge them because of this – but they feel free to dress in more liberal ways when they’re at home or at a party.
-----------------------
In order to punish those few crackpots, WE MAY END UP PUNISHING THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE, WHO ARE PEACEFUL AND JUST WANT TO LIVE THEIR LIVES IN PEACE; PEOPLE WHO ARE LEGAL IMMIGRANTS AND WORK HARD, no matter what their customs.
I’m not demonizing anyone. I didn’t mention names.
I don’t discuss people. NEVER. I discuss arguments. And I really think that we should take care not to think that our values are, in some way, much better than other people’s or that all Muslims are against us. That’s not so…but, yes, well, many of them are reacting bitterly after so many years of racism, intolerance and misrepresentation of their lives and culture.
Those who resort to violence must be punished.
The peaceful majority should be left alone – unless we want to create more barriers, more resentment…
When the German secret service grabbed “Curveball”, do you think he wanted to, I don’t know, be enrolled in a course on Islamic theology? No!!! He wanted money to drink, go out with whores and drive Mercedes. In short: the guy wasn’t even a Muslim, just like Saddam, who was a monster, for sure, but came from a secular movement and was opposed by many peaceful, religious Muslims.
He was as religious as Richard Dawkins is.
---------
I insist on the “porn point”.
Most of Muslim women are not forced to dress like this any more than a person is induced by whatever it is to do or consume porn. And this industry, especially the "cheap" one, is gruesome...
------------
And, yes, there are sex slaves in Europe; there is sex exploitation; and guess what? The people behind this are often ordinary Europeans, not Muslims...
Women should have the same RIGHTS as men, no doubt; BUT IN NO WAY THEY SHOULD BE FORCED TO BE LIKE MAN. No. Men and women are not equal in a whole number of aspects, and nor should they be.
For a man, it is ok to go out without his t-shirt…
If a woman goes out showing her breasts, well…she gets the “reputation” of being a whore.
Do I think women should be allowed to go about naked? No! Women are different than men – yes, so obvious…our bodies, the way we experience some things…
-------------
I wouldn’t like the State to have the power to reduce us all to jeans, shorts and miniskirts. I may not want that. I may want to use long, colorful skirts. I may not want to show my shoulders. Why the hell should the state interfere with that?
When it comes to complying with the law, women have to yield in the occasions you mentioned. That’s not the issue, again. The woman doesn’t want to show her face when she’s going to get her drive license or go through an airport? Well, fine: the police will have her do it. Once she has been checked, as everyone else is, then she’s allowed to proceed.
Simple as that. I don’t see why the exception should make the rule.
--------
The terrorists did not come form Turkey. Turkey was, in fact, a Western ally and is a touristic spot to Israelis up until today.
