Queen "Elite!".

Just a couple of final points.
1: I am disapointed to read about theft. Nothing in Fanthology is stolen. That is a very degrading misconseption.
For example Brian May is commisioned by a company to write say a TV theme. The TV company pay him to do this, but do not like the product. They then decide to dispose of the artifact and sell it. They offer it to Brian first, but he refuses.
That is not theft. That is a legitimate purchase.
2: Similar and related. Some guy buys a butchered Bo Rhap French edit single from e-bay for £1,000.
That is his choice, I can not be judgemental or critical - it's his money after all.
He owns the artifact - not the music but the French 7" single.
So he calls me and says - "If you want to buy this single I will sell it to you for £1,000". I reply "No Thanks - too expensive". "OK" says he; "I will swap you a digital copy of my edit for your digital copy of Freddie's "My Way". "DEAL".
Is that theft - NO. Is that a secret trade yes. What the hell has this to do with anyone else?

How to get rarities: Go to ebay. Go to auctions. Go to Record fairs. SPEND MONEY!

I bought all my stuff LEGITIMATELY from Bonhams and Christies auctions. These were public auctions, anyone could bid. Me, you, Brian May, QPL, John Deacon. I outbid them. If QPL wanted Hangman - they could have bought from the same ligitimate source.

I subscribe to film and media auction rooms. But to do so I pay £25.00 per quarter just to recieve the catalogue. Sometimes the catalogues have nothing. Sometimes I see something coming up I would like - and set a limit and bid.
Most times nothing comes up - so that's £100 per annum on a maybe... Final tip SPEND MONEY. Even in these internet days, there is no such thing as a free lunch.

Do I own the rights - NO. Do I own the artifact - YES.
But I am very disapointed that some in here compare me or the fanthology as thieves - and compare us to house-brakers.

Send in the heavy mob. I have all my receipts.

Lucky - yes. Priviledged yes. But thief - NO, and if I decide to share the contents of "my" tape with a select few - so be it.

Finally Fanthology: If I write about "Hangman" I am a c*nt and a pr*ck-tease. I still recieve threats and hate mail.
So I uncover Freddie Mercury's "My Way" - it become "Hangman 2" - if I talk about it - I am a bigger c*nt. If I don't then it's a secret squirrel society.
This is it - I trade baseball cards with others as artifacts.
Sometimes we swap electronic data.
That is why fanthology is an oasis of peace and quiet and troll free.

Hey John, you know how some Queen fans are and I'm sure you've run into plenty of assholes in your life. For some reason they seem to flock into the Internet but it's really just a matter of us being more connected now.

Most of the sensible forums members know who did wrong in this recent event. All I can say is... Assholes will be assholes. You trusted one, you will not trust him again. End of story. Don't let it get to you more than it should.

By the way, I can't help but asking if there's really a recording of Freddie singing "My Way" (which would be awesome) or you simply mentioned it to make a point.

I usually don't trust anybody saying they have rare, unheard recordings but, considering your good record here, I really have to ask.

Keep up the good work, man.

[QUOTE] [b]Wiley wrote:[/b]
Hey John, you know how some Queen fans are and I'm sure you've run into plenty of assholes in your life. For some reason they seem to flock into the Internet but it's really just a matter of us being more connected now.
Most of the sensible forums members know who did wrong in this recent event. All I can say is... Assholes will be assholes. You trusted one, you will not trust him again. End of story. Don't let it get to you more than it should.
By the way, I can't help but asking if there's really a recording of Freddie singing "My Way" (which would be awesome) or you simply mentioned it to make a point.
I usually don't trust anybody saying they have rare, unheard recordings but, considering your good record here, I really have to ask.
Keep up the good work, man.[/QUOTE]

NO: There is no Freddie singing "My Way" - someone else used it as an illustration in an earlier thread, and I just ran with it.
There is NO "My Way" (but I now feel like Monty Python's Brian - the fact I have been honest and said no - will be interpreted as a "yes" by others!).

I have no doubt that much of your collection is obtained in exactly that way John, you are a serious collector and as such I would expect you to do all of the above. However like serious collectors in every field your goal is to own as much as you can, so if someone calls you with an offer of Freddie singing Bo Rap in the studio prior to its final recording you will jump at the chance to obtain it (providing it doesnt cost you too much) but will you question how it was obtained?

I am not for one moment sayiong you sneek into studios and try to pick the locks of the cupboards, or hang around outside Brian's house waiting to go through his bins...but as with all collectors your goal is to own, and I am 100% confident that a good selection of your collection was removed without the artists permission by someone.

You then purchased it, either at auction or personal trade. My point is how the article fell into public hands in the first place?
Everyone is aware that all auctions are stuffed full of stolen property, car auctions are a classic example, the auction house will of course seek the truth about the sellers story and history, however there are thousands of cases of this happening ranging from everything from Nazi memoribilia to famous works of art.

As a collector you are simply trying to obtain every snippet of recorded material from the band, which is fine, but lets be honest here as long as you didnt steel it yourself you can feel comfortable about obtaining it.

From my point of view this is the same as buying a stolen DVD player from a chap in the pub. I dont blame you for doing it, most would but for me it's all about how the track found it's way to public hands. If say Roger threw it out and someone picked it up, I guess that's fine, although I would still say before selling it that person should out of respect ask Roger if he is ok with that. If it has been obtained because someone in the marketing team leaked it...I think I have more of an issue.

I come from this from the side of the artist, the person who created it and who really owns it, if they are ok with every track in your collection, fine, if however they would rather much of it is not in public hands you have to ask how it got there? if they didnt give permission it WAS taken from them in some form, and it's as simple as that
People can give millions of ways the track arrived in there hands, but if it was not with the blessing of Freddie, Brian, Roger or John then it was stolen...

If I found someones wallet on the ground I would return it to them. If someone offered to sell me the wallet in the pub I would not buy it, if I found that wallet in an auction I would question how it got there? And unless it had a credible history that could be checked I would seriously question it.

As I say i dont collect so all this seems slightly weird to me, I do however collect guitars, but I buy them from shops, normally new, but occassionally vintage, and always with a full history.

Dont get me wrong I am NOT saying you are stealing, but I do question how a large amount of your collection left the ownership of the band? because I bet if you asked Brian or Roger they would have a different view of how certain tapes got out.

Fianlly for the record, yes I am confident a vast amount of what you have is legit, purchased in good faith, and I certainly understand your desire to own it. I am not accusing you personally of theft or indeed any wrong doing. Where I object is at the point someone felt the need to remove the track from the studio, cupboard, vault, or where ever they got hold of it. Simply put if they didnt ask permission to take it, surely that is wrong?

Togg: These are not drug deals. They are not conducted by two guys meeting in a street corner selling spliffs.

ALL my material is legit. If Bonhams sells a stolen painting - that is not the buyers fault - it is the auction house's.

Because of this, and because they sell paintings worth millions of pounds - it is the auction house's responsibility to check background and providance before selling and obtain and all legal rights to do so.

Now: If I buy the French Bo Rhap 7" for £1,000, it is my single I own the artifact - not the content. For me to resell at £2,000 is not theft or illegal. (A bit of a rip-off but you get the point).

Likewise acetates are artifacts, the sound engineer may well own a legal copy.

Likewise; when I bought the De Lane Lea recordings the tape BELONGED to polydor - who were one of the companys Queen hocked the unsuccesful tape to. Legally Queen freely donated the property to Polydor.

A retired polydor rep legitimately owned the tape. He sold on retirement. I bought. But I emphisise I only own the artifact - not the musical rights.

This is how art works.
Buy an early Dickens' manuscript.
Buy an Andy Warhol painting.
Buy a Reaction acetate. It's legal.

PS: I do not deal in bootlegs or live concerts. I am not a live expert.

But if I have downloaded an "illegal" concert digitally, then yes, I guess that would make me as guilty as anyone else who downloaded.

However; I only deal in artifacts.

(People in UK - watch "4 Rooms").

I take your point, and indeed I am not saying you are doing anything illegal.

What I am saying is if you were to ask the band how a number of these items got out they would say without my permission.

Sure the rare singles etc you buy are yours pure and simple, I am taking about the stuff removed from the bands posession without their consent.

Are you saying that has never happened? and no tracks/recordings excist that have not been taken by means which can be classed as illegal?

I'm not talking about white lables or record company copies, or recordings the band gave to friends, you know the type of stuff I refer to here. And yes of course it's the auction houses duty to check, but again it happens. no it's not the buyers fault I never said it was, I am simply pointing out much of the hyper rare stuff you guys fight over and keep sectret is by it's very nature originally obtained by some form of theft or dishonesty

Reading these topics with open mouth. This is a world I didn't even know it existed.

1. There is some super mega rare Queen stuff out there.
2. Because it is rare, it has value.
3. Because it has value, it will not be shared. Because if it is shared, it will lose value.

Winners: Traders, that want to make money(?).
Losers: Fans, that want to hear music.

Or is this too bold?

[QUOTE] [b]Togg wrote:[/b]
I take your point, and indeed I am not saying you are doing anything illegal.
What I am saying is if you were to ask the band how a number of these items got out they would say without my permission.
Sure the rare singles etc you buy are yours pure and simple, I am taking about the stuff removed from the bands posession without their consent.
Are you saying that has never happened? and no tracks/recordings excist that have not been taken by means which can be classed as illegal?
I'm not talking about white lables or record company copies, or recordings the band gave to friends, you know the type of stuff I refer to here. And yes of course it's the auction houses duty to check, but again it happens. no it's not the buyers fault I never said it was, I am simply pointing out much of the hyper rare stuff you guys fight over and keep sectret is by it's very nature originally obtained by some form of theft or dishonesty[/QUOTE]
Sorry but we must agree to disagree.

Freddie sent out Xmas cards to his friends. If you were one of those friends - that is now your card. If you decide to sell the card at a later date that is your choice. It's not theft or illegal. Freddie would be mortified, and I am not saying it's right or even moral - but it happens.

If Bob Jones of "The Reaction" band - sells his personal acetate because he has hit hard times - would you deny him the right to sell his own disc?

Suprisingly much of what the band "own" do not belong to the band at all. A gold disc for example would be the property of EMI, as indeed all Trident tapes belong to the Sheffield brothers.

If I was a Russian bulti-billionaire - I would buy those tapes from the Sheffield's. (Brian can do the same - because they do not belong to the band). If I bought them I would own the tapes (and the songs on them). So if there was an unreleased "My Way", I do not own the song or the rights - just the physical tape. That is not theft.
If I wanted to trade that track with others - that would be my choice - not Brian's.
Ofcourse he could suit my ass-off for selling CD copies, but for private home use - it is legally mine.

That is why McCartney does not own the Beatles music because Michael Jackson bought it under his nose.

So again; sorry but we must agree to disagree.

[QUOTE] [b]Ivo-1976 wrote:[/b]
Reading these topics with open mouth. This is a world I didn't even know it existed.
1. There is some super mega rare Queen stuff out there.
2. Because it is rare, it has value.
3. Because it has value, it will not be shared. Because if it is shared, it will lose value.
Winners: Traders, that want to make money(?).
Losers: Fans, that want to hear music.
Or is this too bold?[/QUOTE]

No: It is not like that at all. Quite the reverse.
If I pay £5,000 for a tape - that is now my tape.
It's NOT about the money. I bought it to hear the music on the tape.
I did not wait for it to fall from a tree. I was proactive, searched it out, found it, and PAID out the money to do just that.
It is never about making money - it is about the love of the music and wanting the artifact - ALWAYS. That is why I bought it. Not to make money.

You can do that too.

But I don't want to upload because it cost me £5,000 to hear the song.
But mine is not the only £5,000 song out there.
So someone else comes along and says I have a rare recording too - will you swap digital copies?

And we agree.

If I did upload Freddie's "My Way" - who would then swap with me. I too want to listen to the other track, but because mine has leaked... it trading terms it has become worthless.

It's not rocket science.

After a few trades, it becomes less rare and more likely to be shared.
Then you guys get it for free.
So why all the fuss and bother?
It's not rocket science!

It's really that simple John? A few trades? So .. how come so much of what we suspect to be in private collector's hands has never seen the light of day.

Holly to be frank; because you are all too impatient. In trading circles (my words) there are
Gold items. These become
Silver items. These become
Bronze items. These become
plastic items.
It is never about monetary value - its all about musical trading value - first and foremost.

When it becomes bronze (again my words) I (personally) would release. But the time it takes to downsize from gold - bronze may take a couple of years.
The problem is - someone gets wind of the gold - and wants it now. That's the real reason for "secrecy" no conspiracy.

Look over all the QZ posts. We are only one or two steps ahead of the game, thats all. That's why I annoyed at fuller. He uploaded a gold item (Is It me) for free.
Now when another Gold item comes up - I can't trade anymore - because I have nothing to left to trade with. As I said - you can have my iphone 3 FREE, but please wait until I get an iPhone 4. You can get my iphone 4 FREE but please wait until I get my iphone 5. After all you are getting it free at my expense - and there is no such thing as a free lunch.
It really is that crude and that simple. No conspiracies. But in here, people are after my iphone 5 NOW. It is their "right" now.

Pity they did not see the cogs behind the machine.

Holly: There was a time I did not have "Face it Alone".

I even pleaded on this site for someone to share it with me.
No one did.
The reason being; I had nothing to trade with them.
Forget about all the stuff leaked yesterday, that's history.

Keeping one step ahead - that's the game.
As I also said - it's not rocket science.

Because I had no "trading" material - I had to go start-up again.